Making evil communities without making them totally evil.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:52 pm

One of the things that... well, I wouldn't say it really bugs me so much that it decreases potential plots is that for more most settings if you have an evil or just a flawed nation it has to be flawed in pretty much every way. Like, it can't have some good points to it or points of reform. I think that TTRPGs could do a lot better if the vast majority of nations were light-grey instead of black. For example:

Yevon (FFX)
Good points: unlike most fantasy evil empires, they're extremely multicultural.And this is by design, not LotR-accidents Racism and cultural insularity is extremely distasteful to them; as long as you pay lip service to the religion and don't do science, you can do whatever the fuck in your free time. It's really the nicest theocracy ever invented. Even though they're corrupt they at least really do care about the welfare of the people in charge, providing them with plenty of bread and circuses.

Bad sides: They've embraced anti-science and religious extremism pretty damn hardcore. Now while they have a reason for doing this (they're trying to depress the population to prevent an apocalyptic monster from crushing everything) they're still pretty big dicks about it. Because of this, it's been several centuries and scientific progress hasn't just halted but decayed a bit. The VERY elite are also incredible hypocrites about the anti-technology thing, too. While they're still anti-science, they squirrel away some of the cargo cult teachings to build a secret police force -- that they almost never have had to use because their religious dogma is so absolute.

Lilliput (Gulliver's Travels)
Good points: Lilliputians are quite practical and almost unflappable. Even though the tests for merit and leadership are completely ridiculous, they're at least open to practically everyone and there is a high turnover rate between different clans. Although Lilliputians have an emperor and an aristocracy the gap between rich and poor is pretty low because they have a policy of funneling as much wealth as possible to children and the underclass.

Bad sides: They're really hardcore xenophobic and belligerent and self-aggrandizing. Lilliputians are intolerant of any other religions or cultures except for their own and would casually engage in genocide for no real reason. Dealing with them except on their own terms is pretty much impossible, because even when you demonstrate clear military or diplomatic superiority over them they'll just sort of stare at you blankly like that last crushing defeat didn't happen and attack you all over again until they get what they want.

Wizarding World (Harry Potter)
Good sides: The Wizarding World is post-scarcity but in an extremely weird way; you don't actually need to be doing anything important or even useful to have a high standard of living. But since basic needs seem to be attended to no one really cares. While the WW isn't explicitly multicultural like Yevon, they do have a 'live and let live' policy to things like muggles and Centaurs for the most part except for a small group of disproportionately powerful dicks.

Bad sides: The government is hopelessly corrupt and inefficient; on a per-capita basis even the Imperium of Mankind would be appalled at how poorly run things are. Even when people can decide on a course of action to unironically help people, it pretty much never gets done because the Wizarding World doesn't just have cargo cult democracy but cargo cult bureaucracy. Unfortunately, the people who do know how to Get Shit Done are the unapologetically evil racists. And considering how little resistance there is to these small group of douches (especially considering that they were defeated and discredited less than two decades ago) one must conclude that most of the bureaucracy secretly holds this viewpoint even if they're not explicitly Death Eaters. Not surprising, since many of them do own slaves and see nothing wrong with it.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:37 pm

Yes, I agree.

Oh, you wanted more examples too? Well, today I was thinking about how to make decent cultures that weren't alignment caricatures. I thought then about having different scales of values for them. For instance, in D&D, the good guys have the following values at at the top of their moral scales:

1) Sanctity of [sentient] Life (so good guys won't even consider killing someone unless it's proved they did something wrong)
2) Dignity of [sentient] Life (so degrading things like slavery are right out)

The values being on a scale works like the laws of robotic. Value 2 is to be upheld unless it conflicts with 1, etc.

Now, if we take some other value like "Efficiency", put it over 1 and 2, and imagine a culture that follows this scale, we create a nation/culture/whatever that is not evil, but it's not good either. For instance, they could view sentient sacrifices as perfectly acceptable for the right reasons.

Also, examples abound in real life of nations that you can't pin in a good/flawed category, in fact, I think this is the case for mostly all the nations/cultures. How about the Roman Republic? They make excellent heroes AND villains, depending of who/where you are. In any case, you can count with meeting good guys and evil guys there. The Inca empire had an advanced public health/retirement system, but used the occasional human sacrifice (and were an empire, of course).

Really, I think it's only in fantasy that people can get by being lazy enough to designate an entire nation as "good guys" or "bad guys".

Xur · Post by **Xur** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:08 pm

I, too, agree.
There were several occasions when I noticed this strange disconnection between players and the world from a splatbook's point of view. Players should be confronted with difficult descisions, their ethics and moral being tested, yaddayadda, but NPC nations are mostly totally black/white. Evil black sorcery empire or white magic elven wood nation and very little in between.

That's one of the things Eberron did right IMHO, nations like Thrane or Karrnath can fulfill every role you need, depending of the player's point of view.

For my part, I agree with nockermensch. Real world cultures make good examples to steal from, so adding some spice to bland fantasy nations is easy, but annoying the same time because the authors should have done the job in the first place.
Roman Empire and Incas have been mentioned, what about the Assyrian Empire? Being a citizen was not that bad, you had a really sophisticated law system, efficient administration, or cultural identity with people being proud of Assur as an ideal, but if you happened to be a foreign culture, you almost certainly got massacred and wiped out, your leftovers then deported 1000 miles away.

The trick is to not let whole nations have a position of objective self-reflection. A handful of rebels or philosophers aside, you don't meet farmers and peasants who reflect on the evil nature of their government - its the way things just are in their world.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:10 pm

They're technically Chaotic Good, but I'll use Sun Elves as an example:

Sun Elves (Forgotten Realms)
Good Points: They may not like to admit it, but Humans have already overtaken elves in political (and magical!) dominance in Faerun. While still being the pretentious Elf stereotype, they put a lot of emphasis on Elven brotherhood and unity and try to foster relations with the other subraces. They also have a hard work ethic and drive, encouraging themselves to be the best at whatever they do (farming, fighting, magic, etc.). They're also liberal in terms of sexual mores, gender equality, and place a high emphasis on education for all their citizens. On the Isle of Evermeet, they eagerly make use of magic to improve the standard of living for everyone; there are poor elves, but magic softened the burden of poverty for them.

Bad Points: Did I mention the pretentious elf stereotype? Yeah, if it weren't for their implied Chaotic Good elf-ness, they'd be just as much a threat to humanity as Drow. It is not predominant, but Sun Elves have a bad habit of tolerating hateful and violent bigots in their midst, with some noblemen going so far as to provide these groups with monetary aid. Some Sun Elves even view humans as non-people, and the world would be a better place without them. The Eldreeth Veluthra is a major example: they're pretty much the KKK, but with elves instead of white people.

Sun Elves are also obsessed with the lost civilizations of their ancestors, viewing it like some sort of perfect utopia they need to restore. What they don't know is that the society wasn't so perfect: the criminal justice system consisted of plaintiffs and defendants engaging in armed combat (whoever wins is in the right), and their leaders were responsible for the Dracorage, quite possibly the closest equivalent to magic-induced insanity on a massive scale.

The Society (The Giver)

Good Points: No wars or crime. Government-assigned occupations go by skill level, resulting in increased efficiency. The community has all its basic needs provided for, and ignorance of the wider world beyond means that the people don't miss what they don't have.

Bad Points: Strict population control; excess babies are killed. They don't use birth control and seem to wait until the baby is born, resulting in a needlessly inhumane and inefficient system. Anybody who excels at anything is punished and forcefully handicapped, viewing "sameness" as the ultimate ideal. Capital punishment is used for even the most minor forms of dissidence (ex: baby cries too much). Mass-produced drugs prevent citizens from experiencing powerful emotions, such as love and lust. Most citizens are fond of each other, but nothing strongly positive or negative.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:12 pm

I toyed with something like this on a much smaller scale (a commune) in my current game. Out in the middle of the desert, a few days outside of town, there's a cleric of the Evening Glory (neutral undead deity from Libris Mortis focused on eternal life so you don't have to lose your loved ones). She heads a cult where people go to become necropolitans or try to revive loved ones.

There's nothing overtly evil about them at all, but the player in this game revers nature and finds this "unnatural" and he's quite on the fence as to whether or not he should deal with this.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:02 pm

A bunch of the Exalted villains are seriously bad people, but also have set up societies which nominally have good points. In the Northwest, there's a whole religiously- reinforced society based on the best and brightest being turned into ghosts. The whole thing is post-scarcity, largely because the state owns your body, and turns it into a helpful zombie after you die. They also skip crime and punishment, and just track merits and demerits (essentially), and kill you/kill you and ghostify you when you get enough of either. But, it's pretty much all held together by brainwashing, and it's all so that the deathlord there can assemble a giant navy and eventually kill everyone around. In the meantime though: post-scarcity meritocracy.

That's... pretty typical for Exalted.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:27 pm

I'm don't care so much about evil societies being wholly evil, as much as I care about them being believable. I like the idea of the Vashar, because, admittedly, I like characters that kill gods. The problem with the Vashar, culturally*, is that they are a complete puppy-kicking caricature of evil. They aren't just a race that is entirely descended from a demon, wants to kill the gods, and is pragmatic to a point where even Deadpool says "Hey, that's going a bit far." No, they're a race that is like a bizarro mirror-verse version of a functioning society. They don't understand non-evil concepts, like love (love isn't good, it's neutral), they literally reproduce by rape, which, honestly, doesn't make any damned sense. They have no taboos about filth, which, again, doesn't make any damned sense, because "shit in one place" or "ew, vermin" aren't cultural things so much as instinctual "I don't want to get sick and die" things. Oh, and they're almost all evil, untrusting, abusive dicks, and yet supposedly they function under some kind of Grecian democratic system where all the evil bastards meet in the town square and discuss shit. Assuming they can stop raping one another and gleefully abusing small animals for no reason long enough to do so.

The Vashar aren't evil, as presented, they're psychotic. They literally could not function, and would not survive if left to their own devices the way they are described. That shit needs to be fixed or explained. And if the explanation is that demons are hiding among the Vashar and making it seem like the society is surviving, then by this point there are no more Vashar, only demons in human form.

*mechanically they suck because they're literally just humans that can only pick a handful of feats.

So the Vashar need an overhaul, because the only things

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:33 pm

I'm don't care so much about evil societies being wholly evil, as much as I care about them being believable. I like the idea of the Vashar, because, admittedly, I like characters that kill gods. The problem with the Vashar, culturally*, is that they are a complete puppy-kicking caricature of evil. They aren't just a race that is entirely descended from a demon, wants to kill the gods, and is pragmatic to a point where even Deadpool says "Hey, that's going a bit far." No, they're a race that is like a bizarro mirror-verse version of a functioning society. They don't understand non-evil concepts, like love (love isn't good, it's neutral), they literally reproduce by rape, which, honestly, doesn't make any damned sense. They have no taboos about filth, which, again, doesn't make any damned sense, because "shit in one place" or "ew, vermin" aren't cultural things so much as instinctual "I don't want to get sick and die" things. Oh, and they're almost all evil, untrusting, abusive dicks, and yet supposedly they function under some kind of Grecian democratic system where all the evil bastards meet in the town square and discuss shit. Assuming they can stop raping one another and gleefully abusing small animals for no reason long enough to do so.

The Vashar aren't evil, as presented, they're psychotic. They literally could not function, and would not survive if left to their own devices the way they are described. That shit needs to be fixed or explained. And if the explanation is that demons are hiding among the Vashar and making it seem like the society is surviving, then by this point there are no more Vashar, only demons in human form.

*mechanically they suck because they're literally just humans that can only pick a handful of feats.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:53 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:The Vashar aren't evil, as presented, they're psychotic. They literally could not function, and would not survive if left to their own devices the way they are described. That shit needs to be fixed or explained. And if the explanation is that demons are hiding among the Vashar and making it seem like the society is surviving, then by this point there are no more Vashar, only demons in human form.

This is how I remember the chaotic evil drow society being explained: "A Lolth did it."

Also, the puppy kicking. Gods, the puppy kicking. I can't stand playing the evil route of any bioware RPG because being evil, for them, was always kicking puppies, all the time. I can't play Don Corleone Jr. on a CRPG.

Back to the society topic, fectin mentioned a good point: it's easier to have evil leaders. Think the Aztecs, the late Roman Empire or *insert your favorite country here*: They can be led by decadent, murderous thieves, but the populace at large is comprised of largely indifferent people. Some of which will even be benevolent. An entirely evil society is probably better left for strictly supernatural beings with the [Evil] descriptor, that then could be explained as "Asmodeus did it."

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:11 pm

Also remember, puppy-kickers are rarely psychotic; they're frustrated, or sometimes just misunderstood. The Joker is crazy. It's hard to do those villains well though. Dr. Horrible is actually a pretty evil guy, but he gets there because he doesn't see any other way to fix the world. Torquemada had some pretty bad things going on, but remember that he was largely about persuading people with logic and insisted on evidence before executing them. The search for evidence got just a bit out of hand, but places without the inquisition skipped straight to beating you to a pulp, then threw you on a fire.

To really get a believable bad guy, he needs to be trying to do something very good. Take Hitler: he had a vision of a meritocratic Germany governed on scientific principles. Germany needed strong leaders to improve, and the world needed a strong Germany to improve (roughly. I'm not expert on Nazi ideology). To achieve this, he killed everyone who was unpopular and attacked every other country, all at once.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:23 pm

Which is why I like the Vashar. They want to kill the gods (yes, I'm an uber-militant atheist that faps to anything related to killing god blah blah blah as pointed out by someone I used to talk to online). They could be like Luthor in the Man of Steel storyarch that got reprinted actually titled Luthor, wanting to kill the gods because they think belief and worship demean sentient life, that the gods treat sapients as children.

But they're not. They're two year olds who rape each other in a pile of shit crawling with maggots.

PoliteNewb · Post by **PoliteNewb** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:45 pm

Prak wrote:(yes, I'm an uber-militant atheist that faps to anything related to killing god blah blah blah as pointed out by someone I used to talk to online).

Have you read Tales of MU? Gillian "Gottmorder" Callahan is pretty much your hero.

Check this out for starters, if you're interested.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:43 pm

Here's another:

New Earth Government (Cthulhutech)

Good Points: For a Lovecraftian Post-Apocalyptic world, the NEG has managed to avoid the worst of it. External Mythos threats have helped most humans to put aside their differences, resulting in a multi-cultural militaristic society which encourages citizens to contribute to the common welfare. Most people's basic needs are fulfilled (most families have a car, a job, and three meals a day).

Bad Points: One Call of Cthulhu RPG writer once said that in a 21st Century Society, only totalitarian control of media outlets would be enough to contain reports of Mythos-related incidents from spreading. The New Earth Government is pretty much that. The government sets the course for your life, tells you where to live and what job you have. Civil liberties aren't good, and only the positive aspects of the war are broadcast to the masses. Military recruitment programs are intentionally deceptive to get fresh-faced youngsters indebted to them for life.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:54 am

Orcs (D&D)

Gluttonous, Lustful, Envious, and Wrathful. They're not Evil because of ideology, ignorance, or habit: they're just stuck being the pig-headed personification of four prime sins. They love their partners and children (would be sick if they killed them all in a fit of rage), their society is an egalitarian meritocracy (in that no one's allowed to be any better than anyone else unless they're bigger and scarier), and they like a clean environment (foooood!).

They're also a bit dim, so proper Evil people tend to be able to stir up all that envy and wrath into a murderous horde in no time. Easy to tell an Orc life will be better if they just take those Elves down a peg or two, because they were thinking that.

Something Elves got sick of thousands of years ago. Orcs breed dangerously fast, and you've really got to keep on top of them, or keep the Humans at them, either way.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:00 am

I'll talk about Final Fantasy XI, it's one of the best thought out fantasy worlds out there, attached to a very painful, punishing, masochistic MMO.

If you get into the details, none of the beastmen are motivated by "GRR I IS EVIL" and the cute little tarutaru are gigantic bastards.

There are a series of great, flavorful articles that elaborate on characters that show up in the XI game, but have no storyline correlation. Here's one about the legendary king of the orcs during the Crystal War.

Commander of the Bloodwing Horde, an Orcish army sworn into the service of the Shadow Lord. Also known as "Kingslayer Doggvdegg."

Doggvdegg is said to have risen from the ranks of the common soldiers, but little is known of his origins. His notoriety began in 851, when Doggvdegg single-handedly slew King Grantieul R d'Oraguille and his retinue of ten bodyguards during a royal hunt. (The name of Doggvdegg became public knowledge after an Eastern San d'Orian dissident was arrested for planning the assassination, and forced to reveal the full details of the crime.)

In 858, Doggvdegg acted as a captain in the Bloodwing Horde during the Orcs' clash with the armies of the Shadow Lord (the War of Savages). The Orcish forces were defeated, and Doggvdegg was incarcerated in the dungeons of Castle Zvahl for an entire year after slaughtering over three hundred demons on the field of battle. When his imprisonment ended, he was returned to the Bloodwing Horde--now the Orcish arm of the Shadow Lord's army--and was eventually promoted to the position of commander.

In the year 862--the beginning of the Crystal War--the "Kingslayer" lured the San d'Orian Royal Knights into the forest and decimated their ranks with devastating ambush tactics (the Battle of Jugner). He followed up on this victory by invading Ronfaure and laying siege to the capital for a period lasting three weeks.

Doggvdegg was a gigantic Orc, and his appearance on the field, often on a bugard mount, would be accompanied by a characteristic tremor that would echo all the way to the chateau, terrifying the citizens of San d'Oria on a nightly basis.

He was also known to have commanded the Bloodwing Horde during battles fought in Valkurm, Gustaberg, and Batallia. However, Doggvdegg disappeared from the history pages after the conflict in Xarcabard, where it is said he defeated the San d'Orian general Phillieulais in single combat. (Beastmen records concur with this account.)

While people remember Doggvdegg as a vicious and cunning monster, the Orcs revere his memory as a merciful and just warrior--a hero among soldiers.

It's told from a neutral but flavorful perspective. The stuff he did, why he did it, opinions on him by his enemies and his allies.

Some notes: Sandorians are the Elf types in XI, they are all built like NBA players, have dark skin, and uphold the sword as a noble art while looking down on magic users, though they have a powerful priesthood that leads them.

The Shadowlord is the main badguy of XI, the orcs were originally at war with him until the event detailed here.

erik · Post by **erik** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:27 pm

Just a nod in agreement that unilaterally evil societies make really crappy villains because they make no sense.

Reavers in the Firefly/Serenity verse. They're completely psychotic to the point of gibbering madness completely consumed by violent urges. But they apparently work together well enough to maintain a fleet of spaceships and a space colony for over a decade and coordinate their efforts enough to be a threat to even well trained, much, much better equipped enemies.

All you need to make an evil community that is believable is put too much power in the hands a bad, bad person or group, and institutionalize evil practices. Then you get your legions of mooks willing to do evil things *and* your big bad villains to take down.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:21 pm

See Warhammer 40k.
They ALL work like that.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:03 pm

Stahlseele wrote:See Warhammer 40k.
They ALL work like that.

Necrons and Dark Eldar are good because ... *head explodes*

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:28 pm

nockermensch wrote:
Stahlseele wrote:See Warhammer 40k.
They ALL work like that.
Necrons and Dark Eldar are good because ... *head explodes*

Necrons are the ultimate form of non-discrimination. Everyone is equal to them, and they treat everyone equally.

Dark Eldar are the extreme of self-actualization. You can rise as high as you want, and everything is your for the taking.

Guyr Adamantine · Post by **Guyr Adamantine** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:47 pm

Hell, the most powerful man in Commorragh, Asdrubael Vect, is a former slave. It's an equal-opportunity lifestyle!

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:38 am

Warhammer 40k is such an amazing setting, that living under undead space robot skeletors or under Imperial is actually something you have to THINK HARD about.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:52 am

I'll live with the Tau.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:49 am

As a neutered worker drone, untill you die.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:05 am

Stahlseele wrote:As a neutered worker drone, untill you die.

and though there are raging arguments about the validity of your statement's source, compared to everything else in 40k that is a pretty good life.

But the best life is to be an ork.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:04 pm

Yah, Party harder!