The Gaming Den

Oh, sure, 5E has nothing on 3e in terms on amount of content, but there is some mechanical content coming out on a regular basis for 5e. It's just in a trickle.

Prak wrote:Oh, sure, 5E has nothing on 3e in terms on amount of content, but there is some mechanical content coming out on a regular basis for 5e. It's just in a trickle.

The thing is that this content is not even up to the teaser materials that came out plugging each new book back in 3rd edition times. If you just total up the dumb "bonus feats that got cut from the book but we're still putting them online because why the fuck not?" shit that came out with each and every new book during 3.5 or 4e, it's way more than comes out for 5e during comparable time periods. The shit 3.5 left on the counter is more cookies than 5e puts out for their entire everything.

Let's ask Owl Cat to go look at this supposed content stream.



OK.

-Username17

Prak wrote:So, I asked a friend's opinion of this product schedule, since they like 5e. They pointed out that a lot of the 5e worldbuilding and new content is being done online, which... is a reasonable business model, conceptually. I can see doing all or at least a lot of your new mechanical stuff as regular web offerings, and saving your print production for adventures and maps and other stuff that would be inconvenient in a web-only format.

But, quality of their product and their web content aside, it seems like that's why 5e's production schedule seems to be a bare trickle. The things that would be filling up four or five additional books a year are being released a few pages at a time online.

Most of which is presented as drafts or playtest versions (some of which actually did wander into the FR adventure book which was done, once again, by a third party).

But, anyway. You said reasonable business model. It is not. Posting napkin drafts on a website for free isn't a business model at all. If there were full versions or tie in products to buy somewhere it might be, but at this point it's less of a business model than fanfics or webcomics, where many authors know about online tip jars or patreon.

I think the business model of publishing crunch online in articles and printing adventures and other "this would be a pain in the ass to use at the table in an online only format" things is a reasonable model.

I do not think WotC is following that model with any kind of competency.

Competency isn't really the issue. Granted Hasbro doesn't have any great demands or expectations of the D&D branch of the WotC office (beyond 'don't be in the red'). But in 2017 they're seriously paying a handful of people to make blank pages, reprint old shit and license someone else to reprint old shit. An intern can handle the scanning and using Word for an hour to create a character sheet, so Mearls and company must watch an awful lot of porn in the office, because they seriously have no jobs to do.

But when D&D made money, they made it through crunch books. Modules became a thing they didn't like to do, because they didn't get much in returns on modules.

Offering no crunch to buy, and shitting out mechanical doodles with no fluff tie ins (and really no fluff tie ins, as the novel line has been set on fire), isn't just a lack of competence, it's a lack of a business model.

You can do that model with some types of games (particularly minis games, where the real money is in the models, not the books), but that doesn't work when your business is selling books.

At this point, D&D only exists as a placeholder for a licensing IP for crappy board and computer games, and they're barely even pursuing that angle these days (though that may be due somewhat to toxic shock- Sword Coast Legends helped kill its developer off). That could be lack of competence, but lack of a core product is a deliberate choice.

Could that sort of model work for an indie designer? I imagine that's closer to the tip jar/ patreon webcomic sort of deal where you make your money with subscription, merch and special collection stuff

I haven't even thought about the Novels since 4th ed. What is even happening on that front?

MGuy wrote:I haven't even thought about the Novels since 4th ed. What is even happening on that front?

Kersplat, apparently, as of October last year. 'Hero' is the last Drizzit novel, Troy Denning's last novel (featured Orcus, apparently) was renamed, delayed then cancelled, Erin Evans (who did some girl tiefling warlock novels that... could have been good but were saddled with 4e FR as a setting) had a bitter blogpost* in the wake of the last 'Brimstone Angels' novel last year, and Ed Greenwood is supposedly now working on a new 'shared world' for refugee writers.

And those four were their entire stable for the last five years, except for two guys who did two of the six Sundering novels, which were supposed to drag the Realms from the 4e disaster of a setting to the 5e indifference to setting.

My understanding is that Hasbro told whoever at WotC that they were bringing the hammer down, but I don't remember the guy's name or even if that was true. But the authors are certainly moving on and several of them were publically unamused.


*bitter blog post, because those are fun.
http://slushlush.com/

The point is we’ve come to the end. It’s not the end of me, not the end of my stories, not the end of characters like Farideh and family, but it’s the end of the Brimstone Angels Saga. I worked my butt off to get The Devil You Know to you, my darling readers, in time to be published. You get an ending, and having been at this long enough to see lots of series get unceremoniously cut off, I think that’s something precious.

The rush in time to be published is pretty telling in this context, as is the end of the characters (but not characters like those characters).



@prak- maybe once or twice. Generally, the tip jar/patreon model (for webcomics and fanfiction) requires the audience to be established already and it's a huge hill to climb for newcomers. For the former a lot of the big success stories are never going to be repeated and the latter is largely subsistence level/ supplemental in the _very_ best case scenarios.

So if you've got a giant pile of quality shit to dribble out to build an audience, you can turn around and ask for monies on an ongoing basis in a few years. No idea if it would actually work for something like game design, though. In several ways I'd hope not, because that would encourage even more broken up bullshit in an industry full of shenanigans and unfinished products being sold for actual money.

It works a lot better for artists, because they're expected to sell individual pieces anyway.

Man its wierd. I just leveled up to 7 in our campaign, and it's so hollow. Playing a cleric even and I don't know what to advance because the 4rth level cleric spells are a dull lull point. Nothing exciting or really world changing.

I can give every edition allot of shit, but 5e made leveling up at level 7 unexciting. How is that even possible.

Its 5e. You don't 'advance' anything, because you don't have any choices to make. As a cleric your last meaningful choice was picking a domain at level 1. Some classes 'get' to delay that until 3rd level.

As for 4th level spells, yeah, probably you'll want to look at your domain spells, assuming you weren't an idiot in choosing a domain. failing that you can always be obnoxious with divination. Or cast spiritual weapon as a 4th level spell to make fighters feel small in the pants.

TOZ wrote:Goodman Games to update old 1E modules for 5E.

That's one way of putting it.

Seems like it is a luxury collector's hardback with umpteen different versions of B1 and B2, together with lots of interviews, commentary and extra encounters. I can't see anyone buying this strange accumulation of disparate parts, but what do I know?

amethal wrote:

TOZ wrote:Goodman Games to update old 1E modules for 5E.

That's one way of putting it.

Seems like it is a luxury collector's hardback with umpteen different versions of B1 and B2, together with lots of interviews, commentary and extra encounters. I can't see anyone buying this strange accumulation of disparate parts, but what do I know?

Literally three people I know on Facebook have shared the story independently, all of them older D&D players with fond memories. I think there's a market, specifically as a luxury collector's item.

"In 2017, the D&D brand had a 44 percent sales growth over 2016, and the most number of players in its history; 12 million to 15 million in North America alone."

https://tinyurl.com/y9uanpbn

Mistwell wrote:"In 2017, the D&D brand had a 44 percent sales growth over 2016, and the most number of players in its history; 12 million to 15 million in North America alone."

https://tinyurl.com/y9uanpbn

I might actually believe that. That doesn't make the D&D brand any better or really any stronger but I do believe that more people are buying stuff because....well overall people are just buying more stuff.

Like Terminator Genysis made about as much money as Terminator 2. Doesn't really mean its better.

"D&D doing great according to brand manager who conspicuously refuses to source numbers" isn't a stunning claim. And yeah, even if true, there's fifty million extra people in North America since the year 2000, not counting Mexico, which worldometer doesn't, for some reason, but a rough estimate from a graph on Wikipedia suggests that there's an extra ten million people from there. Also worth noting that even if Roll20's demographics are exactly the same as North America's and thus play at exactly the same rates (unlikely), only 7-8 million of those people are actually playing 5e. The "D&D brand" still includes at minimum 3e, 4e, and AD&D, and also maybe Pathfinder. The people who played D&D in high school in 1977 are for the most part still alive, which means it is entirely possible that the brand has simply been accruing more and more players over time, especially since the figure cited by a guy who, again, has every incentive to be misleading was so vague that it's not clear how recently someone has to have actually played to qualify. Are we talking about people who played at least one game in 2017, or people who played at least once per month in 2017, or people who self-identify as D&D gamers in 2017, or people who have ever played D&D who are still alive in 2017, or...?

Stewart very specifically did not give sales figures for a specific edition but rather a vague claim that "the D&D brand" has "12 to 15 million players." That's a pretty wide range, which means we're definitely talking about an estimate rather than some kind of official company record i.e. of sales, so a major question is what methodology was used to get those figures, especially since, again, this guy has every incentive to be misleading. And even if the number isn't misleading (i.e. the players are actually playing regularly, they are mostly playing 5e, etc. etc.), without specific comparison to where D&D was in, let's say, 2005 when 3.5e was strong it's impossible to say if that actually represents a success or just a failure masked by population growth. If current figures are 110% of what they were in the year 2000, that means you've fallen short because total population is 120% of what it was in the year 2000.

I think it is most telling that that many people are playing D&D, not specifically 5e.

I'd bet that sales growth is mostly DM's Guild and Rock Paper Wizard. And I wouldn't be surprised if that number of players is just the total subscriber count of D&D-oriented YouTube and Twitch streams times a magic number.

Re: the Patreon-supported model. I could see that working for a game that publishes everything in an SRD-like website, where patrons get early access to new content and the ability to vote on what character concepts get new content next.

Yes, as I literally sit here playing D&D 3.5, I have to wonder what "D&D brand" having "players"

Means, since it could literally mean 12 million people who played 3e still play 3e, and 3 million people play 5e.

Is that what it means? Probably not.

But if 15 million people are playing 5e, that still wouldn't tell us that they sold even a single fucking book since the SRD exists.

Mistwell wrote:"In 2017, the D&D brand had a 44 percent sales growth over 2016, and the most number of players in its history; 12 million to 15 million in North America alone."

https://tinyurl.com/y9uanpbn

I did a search thru the D&D catalog on wizards.com for 2016 releases by Wizards. There wasn't a lot, an adventure in March and Volo's guide to monsters in November. 2017 has two adventures, Xanathar's guide to everything (assorted crunch), and various minor stuff (DM's screen etc.). With ~150% as much material a 44% sales growth suggests that the limit on sales is more the amount to sell than the amount people are willing to spend.

Yeah, the 2016 to 2017 comparison is telling, since they didn't release much in 2016. If they wanted to compare to a year they actually sold a lot of product like 2001 or 1989, I'd be less dismissive. But "We sold more when we released more" is the kind of fucking obvious thing I've been saying about how they've been fucking up the D&D brand for actual years.

Anyway, here's the "D&D Brand" 2017:

• Xanathar's Guide to Everything (D&D book by WotC) $50
• Icons of the Realm: Classic Creature Box Set (miniatures by Wizkids) $80
• Dragonfire (Deckbuilder game by Catalyst Game Labs) $60
• D&D Adventure Grid (Map Tiles by WotC) $25
• Tomb Annihilation (Board Game by WizKids) $80
• Tales From Candlekeep (Computer Game by BKOM Studios) - variable price, DLC and shit
• Betrayal at House on the Hill (Board Game by Avalon Hill) $50
• DM Screen (DM Screen by WotC) $15
• D&D Tomb of Annihilation Dice (Dice Set by WotC) $20
• Idle Champions of the Forgotten Realms (Computer Game by Codename Entertainment) FTP
• Lords of Waterdeep (Computer Game by Playdek) DLC Price Varies
• Icons of the Realm: Tomb of Annihilation (Miniatures by WizKids) $16
• D&D Character Sheets (character sheet pack) $10
• Planescape Torment: Enhanced Edition (Computer Game Rerelease by Beamdog) $20
• Neverwinter MMORPG (Computer Game by Perfect World) FTP
• Tales From the Yawning Portal (pack of old D&D adventures by WotC) $50
• Assault of the Giants (Board Game by WizKids) $80
• Frost Giant's Fury (Comic Series by IDW) Serial
• Icons of the Realm: Monster Menagerie II (randomized miniature box by WizKids) $16

Well, that was weird. Most of that stuff is not actually D&D, and indeed most of it is not even made by Wizards of the Coast. They are no-shit counting the sales of a boardgame by a different company in Seattle as "D&D brand sales" because the company in question licensed the brand in question. Also DLC sales for some computer games that licensed some of the D&D brand content.

For comparison, here's 2016:

• Rock Paper Wizard (Boardgame by WizKids) $20
• Volo's Guide to Monsters (D&D Book by WotC) $50
• Dungeonology (D&D Kids Book by Templar Publishing) $25
• HERO (D&D Novel by Salvatore by WotC) $28
• Dice Masters: Tomb of Annihilation (Dice Game set by Wizkids) $10
• The Devil You Know (D&D Novel by Erin Evans by WotC) $28
• Monsters and Heroes of the Realms (Coloring Book by Templar Publishing) $15
• Icons of the Realms: Storm Kings Thunder (Miniatures Pack by WizKids) $17
• DM Screen (DM Screen by Gale Force 9) $15
• Tyrants of the Underdark (Board Game by Gale Force 9) $75
• Death Masks (D&D Novel by Ed Greenwood by WotC) $28
• Icons of the Realm: Monster Menargerie (D&D Miniatures Pack by WizKids) $16
• MAESTRO (D&D Novel by Salvatore by WotC) $28
• Tarokka Deck (Art Cards by Gale Force 9) $10
• Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition (Computer Game Rerelease by Beamdog) $20
• Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear (Computer Game by Beamdog) $20
• Curse of Strahd (D&D Adventure by WotC) $50

Now in terms of total products in the brand, that's 17 for 2016 and 19 for 2017, but we are talking about fucking coloring books for some of the 2016 releases. If we limit things to just actual D&D books, there is almost nothing for 2017, and even less for 2016. But of course they aren't doing that. They are talking about "the brand" which includes the enhanced edition rereleases of Baldur's Gate and Planescape Torment.

If there's any takeaway at all, it's that the brand sells more DLC into phone apps than it does children's coloring books. Which is certainly something I would have guessed had you asked me to speculate ahead of time, but I'm honestly somewhat surprised it's only 44% more. I suspect the 2017 sales are taking a bigger hit than you'd think from the fact that the last of the novel lines ended in 2016 and there aren't anymore D&D novels in the pipeline.

In any case, they don't even concern themselves with D&D as an RPG anymore. They've abandoned even pretending to care about that, and are now talking about the sales of phone apps with D&D branded logos on them.



-Username17

Not to mention the actual sourcebooks that are created are clearly made of 1 years worth of lunch articles apiece and as such are as broad and vague as possible because they don't have any theme. If you take out the proper nouns from the last 3 sourcebooks released their titles are "Adventurers Guide" "Guide to Everything" and "Guide to Monsters". That is 3 guides to
1: adventurers
2: monsters, and
3: everything.

If that was someones first draft I would call it insultingly generic and unimaginative, nevermind the actual sourcebooks that have gone to print.

Seattle Times wrote:"In 2017, the D&D brand had a 44 percent sales growth over 2016, and the most number of players in its history; 12 million to 15 million in North America alone."

So that's where Sean Spicer went!

Kaelik wrote: But if 15 million people are playing 5e, that still wouldn't tell us that they sold even a single fucking book since the SRD exists.

On that note, is there a full 5E SRD released somewhere? I've found two, that only have (the same) partial material. I'd assumed only a fraction of their content released was open source, but I have no idea what sort of OGL they're running with, now.

RobbyPants wrote: On that note, is there a full 5E SRD released somewhere? I've found two, that only have (the same) partial material. I'd assumed only a fraction of their content released was open source, but I have no idea what sort of OGL they're running with, now.

In short: No.

There are the Basic Rules with only the most barebone rules (e.g. just 4 classes), and the SRD which still isn't a 'full' SRD in that it's missing a lot of content from the PHB (e.g. only one subclass/archetype per class). That's it. The SRD is sufficient to understand what's going on and how to brew your own content, but... yeah.

I'm not sure why someone decided that 5E needed two different incomplete online rulesets, but it perfectly showcases the confused way WotC handles and distributes information about the game these days.

The only way to legally get a complete (?) 5E digital ruleset is to buy it on DnDBeyond, Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds. Mike Mearls told people in 2014 that they were "looking into" releasing shit as PDFs, but - shocking surprise - nothing happened so far.