5e D&D is Vaporware

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:51 pm

You know they could have gotten the person who reviewed Frank's After Sundown. At least that person went through the book, and that book was made seriously.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showth ... t392132197

erik · Post by **erik** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:29 pm

Damn you for getting me to read that Leress. That guy is a totally worthless douche.

He was going to pan it no matter what he read, and honestly his complaints are the least damning I've ever read in a critical review. Not a single critique of the system. Quality complaints such that a work without budget or staff was not up to professional quality with art, editing or playtesting. It reads like a sad little man who couldn't find anything substantive to complain about so he just cried stroking his flaccid penis to sleep.

talozin · Post by **talozin** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:46 pm

Critiquing the layout of what is, at the end of the day, an amateur production, seems a little meanspirited. It could be laid out better, yeah, but what are you gonna do?

Organizational complaints, okay. There is almost always room for improvement in game's organization. Stylistic complaints, sure. I kind of enjoy Frank's writing style; it's over-the-top in a way I find entertaining. But at the end of the day one of the downsides of having a very distinctive writing style is that not everybody is going to think that style is good.

Much of the rest of his commentary seems to be in the vein of criticizing the game for what it's trying to be. Yes, it gleefully rips off movies, books, TV, and other games, it's just that that's ... sort of the point. Maybe you don't think that's a thing worth doing, and okay, I'm willing to be convinced that it's not. But start by convincing me. Maybe we skipped past that post, I don't know.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:05 pm

I'm about to release an indie RPG. I really hope that my layout doesn't get gangbanged that hard in reviews. I mean I'm sure the layout will be better than Frank's because I actually have a) a not inconsiderable art budget and b) a partner with substantial graphic design skills. But considering we're currently in a huge rush to get it to print (going dead tree, I know, I know) I'd be surprised if there weren't quite a few rough edges.

But still, to focus that much on Aesthetics just seems unfortunate and/or shallow. There are more substantial things about a game to criticize. I mean, then again, I don't want the opposite to happen to me either. "The layout and art look great, but the mechanics and fluff are fucking terrible." Then it'll be my contribution dragging the game down.

koz · Post by **koz** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:10 pm

Schwarz: As someone pointed out, it's quite probable that the SA guy just wanted to make Frank's work look bad no matter what. Since critiquing game mechanics is obviously something he can't do (because he's retarded and there's nothing to critique), he had to cling to whatever hooks he could - which is exactly why that became such a major thing in his review.

Frankly, I think After Sundown is one of the best RPG systems I've ever played, and I've gotten my whole group hooked on it. Hell, I'm even considering writing a supplement of my own for it!

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Leress wrote:You know they could have gotten the person who reviewed Frank's After Sundown. At least that person when through the book, and that book was made seriously.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showth ... t392132197

Wow.

I hate you.

Three pages, and everything I "learned" can be summed up as follows:

1) When a WoD clone has similarities to WoD, that is a terrible thing for some unspecified reason.

All the realms are ripped off from other sources, and the monsters are from "Frank rewrites WoD" thing I actually posted a while back. In fact, it's the exact same text.

The DisciplinesUniversal Powers are DominateAuthority, Celerity, PotenceClout, AuspexDiscernment, Fortitude, DominateMagnetism, and ObfuscateVeil.

2) When a WoD clone has similarities to WoD, that is a terrible thing for some unspecified reason. It bears repeating, because that was about 95% of the complaints that fucker could muster.

Character creation is lifted right from White Wolf.

Considering how much other stuff Frank lifted from other games, I wouldn't be surprised if he just pulled it from there.

Supernatural powers are called "Disciplines". Hands up everyone who's surprised.

Vampires can be Nosferatu (stolen from oWoD), Strigoi (distinguished vamps), and Daeva (native american vamps).

3) When a WoD clone has different mechanics than WoD (Which one, who gives a fuck) that's also a terrible thing for some unspecified reason. And or, using anything from another game besides WoD is also terrible, and you should invent a completely new resolution system that no one has ever thought of for each new game.

The system is d6 based, but aparently uses playing (or Tarot) cards for advancement.

Ah, finally hit the system. How many of these sound familiar?[a description of the mechanics]Judas H. Priest this thing is terrible. Even free it's a rip-off; I mean, this stuff I've found speed-reading it in...what, an hour? Did nobody else read this thing?[Apparently the fact that the mechanics being from Shadowrun is apparently a terrible thing, and what, every d20 game ever made is trash because it wasn't the first d20 game?]

Considering how much other stuff Frank lifted from other games, I wouldn't be surprised if he just pulled it from there.

Guess what? There's a Frenzy mechanic that comes into play when your passion gets tweaked. See, each creature also has a Passion based on things like greed, despair, hunger, etc. Each is called "Master Passion <whatever>" for some reason, and feels like the Virtues/Limit Break mechanics from Exalted.

You can also pick a Driving Passion that gets you WillpowerEdge points back. Not at all like Nature and Demeanor.

The mechanics clearly stolen from a dozen games without even changing half the terminology.

4) When you release something for free, you are obligated to pay a professional layout staff, and if your layout isn't up the quality of books you buy for 50 dollars, then it's shit, and you deserve to die.

Frank did the layout himself, and it shows. Two-column layout, barely any art (and it's mostly scenery), and the pdf doesn't have wide enough margins to put a decent bind on a printout.

Page 11 has a header at the bottom of the second column. Very professional.

Good loving lord has Trollman never heard of a page break? Each section just jams into the next. We go from basic mechanics to character goals to A Special Note on “Super Heroes” then right back into character goals then into "Jobs, Missions, and Quests", where Frank describes the different kinds of things the MC can send the players on. (in case you're wondering: "Bug Hunt", "Courier Run", "Fetch Quest", "Reconnaissance", "Rescue Mission", and "Wetwork".)

Oh, wait, the guidelines for how many cards you deal is at the end of the section. Frank did all the layout himself, you say?

Good lord Frank is a graduate of the Kevin Sembidia School of Game Layout. After all that? We get the Advantage/Disadvantage rules.

The terrible layout.

5) When a Horror Game borrows from other horror genres, it's terrible, for example, when Frank takes inspiration from Jumanji, that's bad, but when WoD took inspiration for the Clan Nosferatu from you know, Nosferatu, or Vampires in general from Dracula, that's okay.

There are three world in addition to our own; each of which is shamelessly and admitedly (by Frank) based on horror movies.

Here's the first sentence describing Silent HillLimbo: The Dark Reflection.

The third realm is Mictlan: The Gloom, which he admits to lifting wholesale from Night Watch.

He put the World Crime League in here as bad guys./There's a cult called "The Hollow Ones".

Reading this "game" is like reading Frank's Netflix queue.

6) Reading something, and quoting blocks of it, and saying that it's terrible for some unspecified reason means you are way smarter than the person who wrote it, and additionally that you put more work into it than they did.

I'm pretty sure I've delved deeper into the drat thing and put more thought into it than Frank ever did.

Noticeably absent, and criticism that the game would be not fun, or is badly designed. Closest thing is the part where he throws a shit fit because Frank called the abilities Disciplines, then called some of them Universal Powers, then called them Disciplines again. He didn't throw a fit that some of them are called Astral Sorceries, so I guess he is aware that sub categories exist, so I'm not sure why he couldn't figure out that Universal Powers is also a subheading.

Now, you may find it weird that so much of what I posted lacks any reasoning for it being bad, and most of it is just a description plus "Pretty terrible huh?" But you shouldn't be, because clearly these people are idiots and couldn't even give a proper scathing review, which in addition to game design, is apparently something else we actually do better than them.

However, I've saved for the end his actual real criticisms, such as they exist while not being completely retarded:

1) Combat is one skill. (That's a preference thing, and I don't see a problem, because I like being able to use lots of different weapons, without having to penalize non combat shit for it. But unlike, wah he made a WoD clone that is like WoD, this is not retarded.)

2) Background skills allowing you to do lots of stuff is bad because... Well, he never explains, but I assume it has to do with devaluing other skills, but frankly, I can't think of how a background does that. Either you are good a driving, or you are good at driving a specific vehicle and some other things related to your profession that gives you that vehicle training, and that's totally a tradeoff I want in my game, but I guess other people might not?

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:57 pm

Leress wrote:You know they could have gotten the person who reviewed Frank's After Sundown. At least that person went through the book, and that book was made seriously.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showth ... t392132197

aww the least they could have done on page 1699 was put my name with my post.

so is krakatoa or stormgale this Rasamune over there i wonder?

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:01 am

Kaelik wrote: Now, you may find it weird that so much of what I posted lacks any reasoning for it being bad, and most of it is just a description plus "Pretty terrible huh?" But you shouldn't be, because clearly these people are idiots and couldn't even give a proper scathing review, which in addition to game design, is apparently something else we actually do better than them.

I must admit that netflix queue line was funny, but this is funnier cause it's true : )

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:44 am

Mister_Sinister wrote:Frankly, I think After Sundown is one of the best RPG systems I've ever played, and I've gotten my whole group hooked on it. Hell, I'm even considering writing a supplement of my own for it!

The only thing that I regularly think about changing is adding a houserule saying "You can spend 1 power point to give yourself +2 on any Resistance Test to resist a magical effect", because otherwise it's too easy to come up with (accidentally or not) a character that has no way at all to spend power points, which seems kinda lame to me.

But yeah, I'm somewhat sad that more After Sundown supplement work never got completed. Asymmetric Threat seems like a good enough reason to put the system aside though, so I'll make it.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:36 am

Regarding the Baneguard, I'm actually going to give an argument here that is kind of actually valid, despite being "part of Team Frank".

It has an ability that is used as an Immediate action on its own turn. In 4E, Immediate actions are always on someone else's turn - so the ability, as written, doesn't work.

Basically, anyone with half a brain knows how it's supposed to work, just like they know the core Warlock (no idea if it's changed since release) isn't supposed to curse itself. However as written, the Immediate thing, much like the Warlock's Curse, doesn't actually work as intended.

Solution: go "hahaha the designer is an idiot" (in both cases - the 4E designers don't get a free pass here, fuck, they should know better, being the guys who made the system) and just houserule it to work the way it's supposed to. There, it's playable and you acknowledged the problem thus avoiding Oberoni.

So it's still vaguely as playable as any other class released at some random point with some unknown amount of errata. But there is something you get to actually point out as not working as intended.

Also, I'm going to formally apologise to Professor_Cirno, because he informed me he does not bother reading the Den and has never linked it there. So he has not sparked the previous invasion as I thought he had. I still think he's a retard on more issues than just "which version of D&D is better", but on that specific point I did owe him that apology.

And according to Ettin, there have been ~100 new posts overnight about how bad Frank is because of the "If they were offering super insightful critique of my methodology, I would expect it to make no sense to me anyway." and calling them out on not understanding math. Oh joy.

But seriously, you have to pay money to sign up to that place when the mod can ban you "for the lulz" (just pay again for a new account!) and where you can pay to change other peoples' avatars to dicks or whatever. So basically, the forum filters intelligence out at the door. There's a reason right there to safely ignore them when they don't come rushing at the gate.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:48 am

Nobody outside of the forum where you're supposed to be retarded (instead of just having it come natural) modsticks people "for the lulz" on SA. Using "for the lulz" gets you probated. The mods haven't actually banned people just for living since 2008.

It's actually pretty nice, well, outside of the threads in question. TradGoons are the worst Goons, pretty much.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:53 am

Mask_De_H wrote:It's actually pretty nice, well, outside of the threads in question. TradGoons are the worst Goons, pretty much.

I will definitely say that about the Let's Play subforum.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:00 am

Leress wrote:
Mask_De_H wrote:It's actually pretty nice, well, outside of the threads in question. TradGoons are the worst Goons, pretty much.
I will definitely say that about the Let's Play subforum.

Games in general is a cesspool, but most of the terrible LP posters are newbies who think SA is 4chan with a paywall or worse, like their shitty game/anime forum. There's no excuse for Traditional Games being an insular community of soon-to-be grognards in denial.

That being said, holy hell fuck that guy who wrote the After Sundown review. That was less than useless. It wasn't even a good pisstaking.

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:42 am

Because I'm assuming most of y'all have shadzar on ignore, I think it's worth noting that his most recent post makes a valid, if weird, point.

User Rasamune copypasta'd shadzar's post about The One Hour Game and posted it as his/her own words. Which is really kind of strange.

Unless shadzar is secretly a Goon, which doesn't seem to fit his preferences.

MYSTERY!!!

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:58 am

Blicero wrote: MYSTERY!!!

Let's get the detectives on it right away! We're taking this whole internet downtown to the labs!

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:15 am

When a Horror Game borrows from other horror genres, it's terrible, for example, when Frank takes inspiration from Jumanji, that's bad,

Sorry but in what possible fucking universe is the children's movie Jumanji considered "horror"?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:21 am

Schwarzkopf wrote:
When a Horror Game borrows from other horror genres, it's terrible, for example, when Frank takes inspiration from Jumanji, that's bad,
Sorry but in what possible fucking universe is the children's movie Jumanji considered "horror"?

Um... this one.

-Username17

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:57 am

that link wrote:The animals are not real animals, as is shown by the special effects for them. Instead they are a mockery of gods work, vessels for demons to invade the world, and are pure evil intent on causing mayhem.

I... what? This guy seems a little too worried about demonic influence.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:01 am

so, when does the Frank vs Tradgoon charity boxing match happen

Kemper Boyd · Post by **Kemper Boyd** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:35 am

Schwarzkopf wrote: I mean, then again, I don't want the opposite to happen to me either. "The layout and art look great, but the mechanics and fluff are fucking terrible." Then it'll be my contribution dragging the game down.

I don't think you should worry about that happening. In many ways, having a solid game is easier than having proper layout and art, considering that if you go and write a game, and actually finish it, you must have some sort of talent at writing and game design. Of course, there's exceptions to that rule but anyway, I'd guess you mostly get that with fantasy heartbreakers and other derivative games that people write more based on enthusiasm than actual vision.

At least for me, writing and designing is no big deal, but I'm hopeless with art and a klutz when it comes to layout and editing, so I get other people to do that part for myself.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:45 am

Koumei wrote:Regarding the Baneguard, I'm actually going to give an argument here that is kind of actually valid, despite being "part of Team Frank".

It has an ability that is used as an Immediate action on its own turn. In 4E, Immediate actions are always on someone else's turn - so the ability, as written, doesn't work.

B&!

But yeah, I'll cop to that. When I wrote the marking rules, I clearly thought that a triggered ability could be used during your turn if the trigger occurred during your turn. But technically, in 4e it can't. That means that without a one sentence exemption for that ability, the class does not synergize nearly as well with Kobolds as it is supposed to.

Now you'd think that would be pretty thin gruel to sustain a multi-year vendetta. Especially since without a one sentence exemption, Inferlocks gain hit points whenever they drop to 0 hit points and thereby achieve immortality at level 1. But 4rries can apparently keep their hatred alive by eating their own herp derp.

Lokathor wrote:The only thing that I regularly think about changing is adding a houserule saying "You can spend 1 power point to give yourself +2 on any Resistance Test to resist a magical effect", because otherwise it's too easy to come up with (accidentally or not) a character that has no way at all to spend power points, which seems kinda lame to me.

This is a criticism I take much more seriously. I genuinely believe that I didn't write in enough things to do with Power Points for After Sundown and would like to remedy that at some point.

KemperBoyd wrote:At least for me, writing and designing is no big deal, but I'm hopeless with art and a klutz when it comes to layout and editing, so I get other people to do that part for myself.

Since you can't tell people in even the vaguest terms what anything you design actually does, I am going to say that you are one of those people who claims the professional sports are easy from the comfort of their couch.

-Username17

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:58 am

Kemper Boyd wrote:considering that if you go and write a game, and actually finish it, you must have some sort of talent at writing and game design.

What you need to do is go and watch. I dunno. "The Room" would be a good starting place.

As a movie it was really very... technically completed.

You might want to watch it with a Rifftrax, er, commentary on it. You know. To save your sanity. A fraction.

PS. Oh haaaii Danny! Oh haaaaaii Kemper Boyd! Oh haaaii "The Room"! Watch the movie to get the joke AND PAY WITH YOUR IMMORTAL SOUL!

edit: Also. I got the URL tags wrong. Because while I DID technically complete... something, it oddly did not work. Which most certainly is puzzling improbable and unprecedented in human achievement isn't it! Despite the added layered meaning value I edited it to work and not be crap. Lessons to learn everywhere in this post...

...got the URL tags wrong TWICE, while talking about fixing them. Damn you "The Room". Damn you Irony. Oh haaaaaiii Irony!

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:05 pm

Bbcode isn't html. It gets angry if you put things in quotation marks. This as opposed to html, which can fail to parse properly if the href doesn't have quotation marks.

For example:

"google"
"google"

-Username17

Kemper Boyd · Post by **Kemper Boyd** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:15 pm

PhoneLobster wrote:As a movie it was really very... technically completed.

Of course, there's some really awful stinkers out there, no denying that. However, I think that the main issue with self-published or indie stuff is presentation, since even if the game is excellent, there's no chance I'll read something that's printed in Comic Sans, like the new Stalker game.

Just my opinion, really.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:37 pm

Kemper Boyd wrote:Just my opinion, really.

You need your opinion bolts tightened, it keeps seeming to slip into new entirely random and nonsensical positions unexpectedly every other post.