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5e D&D is Vaporware
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The first campaign I ever GM'd I used a system like that exclusively for when I couldn't think of a target DC before my players had rolled dice. Which happened more often than I'd like to admit. Especially towards the end, so the penultimate encounters were actually kind of pathetic, and when other things came up, half the group rapidly dissolved.

So, sounds like 5e will be better than 4th, then.
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ishy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I still playing in campaigns that use that system but only for diplomacy. Well combined with mtp that is.
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

wotmaniac wrote:

Not necessarily.
They easily could've done what a buddy of mine does when he DMs -- he doesn't really care what's on your character sheet ... he just looks at what # came up on your d20 and decides if that is a pass/fail based on how "hard" he wants the encounter to be, and then just makes up how to adjudicate damage based on the situation.
Ugh. It seems like the best strategy is to play some sort of generalist, since your actual skill doesn't matter, so you might as well be able to do lots of different things. I mean, why put two +10s into important stats when you could have twenty +1s if he's not going to look at the numbers?
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nockermensch
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

wotmaniac wrote:
You're not from Seattle, are you?
*that's where my buddy's from, and that pretty much exactly sums up his matrix.

Nope, Brazilian here.
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But maybe this kind of system comes almost intuitively to young, mathematically naive people who heard about RPGs. You "get" that there's this make-believe story about orcs, elves and shit that you're telling in a group, that there are stats that represent your character and that you get to roll dice to resolve things.

This certainly "worked" but while I can look back to those times with my friends and laugh and feel nostalgic ("gods, we were stupid"), I can't help but feel terrified when I read Geekgirl's playtest report and see the signs of the same game being played right now, DMed by Monte Cook.

ishy wrote:
I still playing in campaigns that use that system but only for diplomacy. Well combined with mtp that is.

I'd call a system like this "codified MTP", because it's essentially:
Step 1 - make shit up
Step 2 - roll a dice to make it stick!
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Krusk
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've seen plenty of DMs do it. I'm playing under one currently and it isn't awful because he is a fun dude. It would be better if he didn't, but I deal. The game isn't fun, the group is.

I see it come into play most when its "I don't want them to succeed at this, but they rolled dice". So 16+ means "I have to let it happen" and 10-15 means I can stress how hard it is, we fight for a bit and someone gives in. under 9 means failed. Under 3 means mocking.

In effect they just retroactively assign DCs after stuff is rolled. As for how common? You see this sort of shit being given out as good advice for new DMs on the WoTC boards when they say "I didn't know a DC". "just let them do it if they rolled high, and fail if they rolled low".
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ishy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In what way though, is 5th edition so far being vaporware any different from how they designed 3e?

I mean if I read some of what Bruce Cordell wrote about how they designed 3e it sounds like they were just mtp'ing along too.

Bruce Cordell about the time when testing and designing 3e wrote:

Because we were using unformed rules as the basis for our game, and because we wanted a simplified version of those rules, we felt free to do anything we wanted.

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Midnight_v
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

nockermensch wrote:
wotmaniac wrote:
tussock wrote:
OK, an attack progression and a damage progression. You have to have that to roll dice at the table, and dice were rolled.

Not necessarily.
They easily could've done what a buddy of mine does when he DMs -- he doesn't really care what's on your character sheet ... he just looks at what # came up on your d20 and decides if that is a pass/fail based on how "hard" he wants the encounter to be, and then just makes up how to adjudicate damage based on the situation.


*note: I refuse to sit at his table.


Hey, this is exactly how we used to play "RPGs" when we were like 14 years old.

Roll a d20 for everything you want to do and check the follow table*:

1 : you fail hilariously bad
2 - 7 : you fail
8 - 14 : you and the DM argue if you should succeed or no
15 -19 : you succeed
20 : you succeed so good, people will talk about it afterwards.

* this table was never written down, but it's exactly how I remember everybody understanding it.


I had the sneaking suspicion that, this is exactly what was happening still at peoples tables on into adulthood, I find that to be egregious, not because its not "workable" perse, but because really, thats not what I agreed to play when you said: "Hey wanna play in my D&D game, we need 1 more!"
I'm sure that even now there are lots of people who want to play that way.
I'm not one of them but they're out there.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ishy wrote:
In what way though, is 5th edition so far being vaporware any different from how they designed 3e?

I mean if I read some of what Bruce Cordell wrote about how they designed 3e it sounds like they were just mtp'ing along too.

Bruce Cordell about the time when testing and designing 3e wrote:

Because we were using unformed rules as the basis for our game, and because we wanted a simplified version of those rules, we felt free to do anything we wanted.


The time for magical teaparty and freely throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks was nine months ago. They have started public demonstrations. They are signing up people for closed betas. When 3rd edition was at that stage, they were way past brainstorming and had skills and DCs and shit. I know this, because a guy I know was actually in the beta and I played in a playtest game as a 1st level paladin. My assessment of course was that Paladins worked fine, because at first level they actually do. I had good saves and my high charisma let me do stuff with social skills (note that DC inflation hadn't set in yet, so spreading skill points out actually made you decent at a couple of things). 3e Paladins of course had a lot of problems, but they were in no way evident in the relatively tight ruleset and limited adventure format I was exposed to at the time.

If they are trying shit out and asking people if they want grids or social interaction rules, they are not ready for an open beta in 3 months. All they could release at this point is the minutes from a brain storming session.

-Frank
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Neurosis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Now let's get into the "how did we get to this point?" part. In short: job security. WotC has held Christmas Layoffs every year (except last year, when the layoffs were in early Summer) for as long as they have been owned by Hasbro. The head of 4th edition D&D has been fired every year since 4th edition D&D was created. It's entirely possible that the people left at WotC believe that the only way they can keep their jobs is by releasing a faulty product that needs to be patched so that they will be retained. It's possible that they believe that their jobs are completely unrelated to their performance and that they will probably have to go look for work in the near future and are simply phoning it in.


Hahaha, what the fuck. Is this actually true!? I can't think of any worse way to cultivate a stable of talented developers.

Quote:
wotmaniac wrote:
tussock wrote:
OK, an attack progression and a damage progression. You have to have that to roll dice at the table, and dice were rolled.

Not necessarily.
They easily could've done what a buddy of mine does when he DMs -- he doesn't really care what's on your character sheet ... he just looks at what # came up on your d20 and decides if that is a pass/fail based on how "hard" he wants the encounter to be, and then just makes up how to adjudicate damage based on the situation.


*note: I refuse to sit at his table.


I'm not going to lie, I have on occasion resorted to that. I don't think it's a good policy, though, and certainly not one to DESIGN a game around.
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wotmaniac
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Schwarzkopf wrote:
Hahaha, what the fuck. Is this actually true!? I can't think of any worse way to cultivate a stable of talented developers.

Pretty much. THIS has a list of comprehensive links.

Hey, stop that ninja editing.

Quote:
I'm not going to lie, I have on occasion resorted to that. I don't think it's a good policy, though, and certainly not one to DESIGN a game around.

This guy openly admits that that's his SOP. And will change the #'s is there's a hot/cold streak, just so things will end up like he wants them. Here's the thing -- the guy is such a control freak, that he has absolutely decided pretty much everything about a game, and the players are just along for the ride.
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erik
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So did it go like this for the firings of head designers?
2009 Heinsoo
2010 Baker
2011 Slaviscek
2012... C-c-c-c-c-c-c-combo breaker Mearls survives?
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

erik wrote:
So did it go like this for the firings of head designers?
2009 Heinsoo
2010 Baker
2011 Slaviscek
2012... C-c-c-c-c-c-c-combo breaker Mearls survives?


Baker wasn't the head at any point and was fired in 2011. Andy Collins was the head until he was fired in 2010. But yes, if Mike Mearls keeps his job all the way through 2012, it will be a combo breaker. But it would be reasonable to count the new edition as a timer restart (not that Essentials kept Slavicsek's job on the table). The tradition of firing the captain every year since the ship set sail would plausibly be kept with Mike Mearls losing his job even out to 2013. And it's difficult to imagine Mike Mearls still having a WotC posting in 2014.

-Frank
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

wotmaniac wrote:

This guy openly admits that that's his SOP. And will change the #'s is there's a hot/cold streak, just so things will end up like he wants them. Here's the thing -- the guy is such a control freak, that he has absolutely decided pretty much everything about a game, and the players are just along for the ride.
Sounds like he should be an author.
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wotmaniac
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RobbyPants wrote:
wotmaniac wrote:

This guy openly admits that that's his SOP. And will change the #'s is there's a hot/cold streak, just so things will end up like he wants them. Here's the thing -- the guy is such a control freak, that he has absolutely decided pretty much everything about a game, and the players are just along for the ride.
Sounds like he should be an author.

Well, he just started that not all that long ago -- in the form of a setting/adventure path for Savage Worlds (officially licensed and everything). Interesting note: all the modules are hard railroaded from start to finish (although, strangely enough, it actually fits the setting perfectly).
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RobbyPants wrote:
wotmaniac wrote:

This guy openly admits that that's his SOP. And will change the #'s is there's a hot/cold streak, just so things will end up like he wants them. Here's the thing -- the guy is such a control freak, that he has absolutely decided pretty much everything about a game, and the players are just along for the ride.
Sounds like he should be an author.


Sounds more like he shouldn't be allowed to tell stories of any kind, ever.

The story is bigger than the teller, always.

People who make the story smaller than themselves are boring and stupid.
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echoVanguard
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Wikipedia wrote:
Vaporware is a term in the computer industry that describes a product, typically computer hardware or software, that is announced to the general public but is never actually released nor officially canceled.

I think what you actually mean to say is that they will release and charge for a product that will not work as advertised, which is technically referred to as "defective", and then announce successive revisions of it. Vaporware is a highly specific term which has the singular defining characteristic of never being released.

On topic, however, I concur that the previous track record and emerging design specifics do not fill me with optimism for the value and marketability of 5e. Which is actually really good news from our perspective.

echo
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Judging__Eagle wrote:
RobbyPants wrote:
wotmaniac wrote:

This guy openly admits that that's his SOP. And will change the #'s is there's a hot/cold streak, just so things will end up like he wants them. Here's the thing -- the guy is such a control freak, that he has absolutely decided pretty much everything about a game, and the players are just along for the ride.
Sounds like he should be an author.


Sounds more like he shouldn't be allowed to tell stories of any kind, ever.
Well, yes. I was more saying that he's effectively playing a multi-player game in solo mode, and is pretty much writing stories and ignoring player/RNG input.

I didn't say they'd be good stories. Wink
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

;n;

i feel so sad to hear that.

I've always felt that the story narration editor's (SNE) job to remind and point out all of the options and powers that a protagonist character (duh, PC) might have, especially when the player might not know it.

In my first session of my Heavy Metal//After Sundown game last night, I had the players with artisan skills get to own some higher end equipment, with the reasoning that they obviously crafted their gear before the chronicle started, since "professional" is 2 checks, I let them add points to their bows, bronze swords, or leather armour for all check results above 2.

The Lapin monster hunter pulled off 6 successes; so I let them use a longbow made out of Unicorn-Rhinoceros horn (which can reach out to 'extreme' range) ..... I now realize that I need to make sure they have enough Str to even use this weapon though. >_>
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Neurosis
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
I've always felt that the story narration editor's (SNE) job to remind and point out all of the options and powers that a protagonist character (duh, PC) might have, especially when the player might not know it.


This is something I wish I was better at as a GM.
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My name is Devon. I freelanced for Catalyst game labs from 2011-2016. I got fired for making this the fourth post in this thread. I totally deserved it, but watch out. It could happen to you.

Secret's out: I own End Transmission and we make kickass games.

Trank Frollman wrote:
One of the reasons we can say insightful things about stuff is that we don't have to pretend to be nice to people. By embracing active aggression, we eliminate much of the passive aggression that so paralyzes things on other gaming forums.

hogarth wrote:
As the good book saith, let he who is without boners cast the first stone.

TiaC wrote:
I'm not quite sure why this is an argument. (Except that Kaelik is in it, that's a good reason.)
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Previn
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Everytime I read something about 5e, it seems more and more like pure MTP.

5 minutes to run a boss fight? Dozens of combats in the space of 4 hours?

I do find it hilarious that the 4e players crashed and burned without the system to cuddle and hug them all the way.
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fectin
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I like that idea of abilities as passive skill checks. Is there something I'm missing as to why that''s bad? Because right now it seems good enough to be worth porting back to 3.x, at least for many skills.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

fectin wrote:
I like that idea of abilities as passive skill checks. Is there something I'm missing as to why that''s bad? Because right now it seems good enough to be worth porting back to 3.x, at least for many skills.


It's just the take 10 rules with extra accounting.

-Frank
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Juton
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Previn wrote:
Everytime I read something about 5e, it seems more and more like pure MTP.


A choice quote from this link:

Quote:
In earlier editions of D&D, and particularly in D&D 4e, character power progression scaled linearly.


No. Maybe it is kind of true for 4e, I haven't played enough to say, but this is categorically wrong for every other edition. I predict one of two things, either 5e is caster edition dialed up a notch or magic-users will be as limited as the ones in Skyrim.
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Parthenon
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Mike Shea wrote:
Described by Monte Cook as the core mechanic of the game, the players told the DM what they wanted to do and the DM told them whether they succeeded or not.

I'm confused. I thought the core mechanic of D&D would be 'd20+mods vs a target number to succeed at a task'. Not a generic statement that can apply to any RPG.

Seriously, this sounds all kinds of bullshit.
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tussock
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

@Juton: Linear progression is like a true thing in some ways. The result isn't linear because a bonus to attack multiplies your bonus to number of attacks which multiplies your damage mods, but each track has been around +1 and a bit more per level for a long time.


@Parthenon: No, the core of 3e and 4e play is more like the players choose their actions from a list and tell the DM if they succeed and what that means. Especially 4e. The difference between taking 20 on your search and finding anything up to DC 30, and telling the DM what you poke with your 10' pole (where he might ask what your Int is, or pull some other mechanic out of his ass).
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