Why is everyone trying to get me to play Earthdawn?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Look, I know that I've said that Shadowrun 4E is one of the better designed systems out there and Earthdawn borrows a lot in ideas and mechanics from Shadowrun, but seriously, why should I give this game more than a moment's worth of consideration?

I own the 2nd edition basic book and I skimmed around some, but then that game completely lost me when I saw that step die chart for attributes. I mean, really now. After seeing something like that, it completely killed my interest in learning about the game. The reason why I bring this up is because I think that Earthdawn, rather than being the hidden diamond in a dungheap like its fans hype, is actually going to turn out to be a thoroughly so-so yet overhyped game like M&M or Fantasycraft.

So, Earthdawn fans, give me the 411. Why the fuck should I care about this game at all other than fanboyism and the pluralistic ignorance it tries to take advantage of?

[Mask_De_H]

If I recall correctly (which I might not), it's because everyone is magic and the game expects you to do epic shit at higher levels, as well as having versions of the flavor specific things you have a fetishistic fervor for.

[MfA]

The die mechanics are definitely needlessly obtuse.

[Aryxbez]

If I recall correctly (which I might not), it's because everyone is magic and the game expects you to do epic shit at higher levels, as well as having versions of the flavor specific things you have a fetishistic fervor for.

Sounds like a good thing of the game to me, seems like everyone should have a " fetishistic fervor" for awesome high level stuff, know not just Lago. That said, seems like the rules are crap, so be interesting to see a review or " Anatomy of Failed Design: Earthdawn" kind of deal on here. So that can see how deep the underlying problems are, and if can be mended, thus can enjoy a fantasy game of high level shenanigans.

[Lokathor]

Haven't really played 2e, though I didn't hear many things about it either way when I skimmed some summaries of the editions, so it should be at least the same as 1e. I've played 1e a while back and I now own the books to 3e and have run a few games of it. I'd say that 3e is a large step up from 1e, so it might be a step up from 2e as well.

The "Step Roll" mechanic is very absurd, but you can probably get a calculator that rolls it for you. Alternately, remember that each step is the same as a +1 or -1 to the result. So, just write down what dice you roll for each talent and skill you have, and any modifiers that happen during the game just add or subtract without changing the dice you roll. After a while, the step thing grows on you a bit.

As to the rest, I've never been good at persuasive writing so I'm not sure what to say. The thing is that you keep talking about all these things you want to see in RPGs, and Earthdawn has a lot of those things. They're not all exactly how you say you want them, but they're there.
[*]Everyone is magic so there's no crying foul when a class's features are "unrealistic".
[*]Spellcasters have moderately powerful spells that take time to charge up, so they don't just save the day on their own.
[*]Not much in-combat healing, and out of combat healing options are also limited based on your Recovery Test count (usually just 2 or 3 a day) so you don't have a "wand of CLW" type of problem.

EDIT:
Get rid of health/damage asymmetry.
It doesn't have much of an asymmetry, but it is there. Damage doesn't go up quite as fast as Durability (hitpoints).

The high-level effects will actually have to reflect the reality of high-level.
The core game focuses on levels 1 to 8, so there's a bit of a loss here. The expansion material goes up to level 15, but high level earthdawn effects don't go quite as crazy as high level DnD effects. Still, characters within earthdawn are approximately aware of the mechanical ramifications of their actions, and the people within the setting take them into account when doing things.

A decent multiclassing system.
You can at any time attempt to level into a new class, but it's more expensive if your current lowest level class is below 5th level. You advance through your classes (single or multi) by leveling up class related talents with experience points (like shadowrun or wod or whatever). The costs are based on the fibonacci sequence, so it's pretty easy to catch a new class up to speed while others in the same group are staying single classed.

Stronghold Rules in core rules.
Nope, earthdawn doesn't have these sadly. I don't think they have any rules like that in any of the supplements come to think of it. You can take over a fort or whatever, but the rules don't talk about costs for building new ones. You're expected to use the ruins of ages past, mostly.

A decent default campaign setting.
Well I like it a lot. Most people I know who've given it a serious read have also liked it. They've recently come out with an Ancient China region/setting as well, if Ancient European isn't your thing. They're both set in the same universe, just different parts of the same planet. There's not really any teleporting, so they're still fairly separate other than the occasional caravan and such.

Actual save-or-sucks need to be re-implemented.
There are spells which attack your spell defense, and then when they hit you they do all sorts of nasty things. Usually they won't quite kill you, but they can often take you out of the fight in a single casting. Instead of a per day limit, spells take 1 or more turns to charge up before they're cast, which helps reduce nova tactics a bit.

Expand, standardize, and fix the skill system.
Well all the skills and talents are on the same system. Rank + Stat Mod vs DC. There's crossover between Skills (non-magic) and Talents (magic powered). Many talents (which you can only learn based on your class) also exist as skills (which anyone can learn), and some skills don't have talents for them because they're considered totally lame (like Animal Handling).

The "penalty" for leveling up a skill instead of a talent is that they take training time, which costs you money and actual time (measured in weeks). Talents you level up just by meditating overnight and doing magic stuff.

A treasure accumulation system that is not ass.
There's common magical items, which you can buy and bind to yourself to get various +1s and such. There's also unique magical items that you have to find randomly that do all sorts of fantastical things like whatever. Those also have to be bound to you to unlock their special powers. The binding takes 1 Permanent Thread per item (a resource basically limited to your level; non-casters have none at all before level 4 though) and also has an experience point cost based on the item.

A core rules class and powers system that is simultaneously more robust and more efficient.
Well, I'm not sure how to judge this one. All the classes are using talents, and the talents are described in one huge chapter, so it's a little like 3e where you know what's going on only after you've skimmed the spells chapter.

Core classes which feel meaningfully different from each other.
The core non-casting classes are somewhat different from each other even at first level, and then as you go they start to diverge more. The casting classes all have a very different feeling theme to them because of the spell list, even though they use the same set of talents to power that spell list (Spellcasting, Read Magic, Spell Matrix, etc)

[Neurosis]

Look, I know that I've said that Shadowrun 4E is one of the better designed systems out there and Earthdawn borrows a lot in ideas and mechanics from Shadowrun, but seriously, why should I give this game more than a moment's worth of consideration?

I own the 2nd edition basic book and I skimmed around some, but then that game completely lost me when I saw that step die chart for attributes. I mean, really now. After seeing something like that, it completely killed my interest in learning about the game. The reason why I bring this up is because I think that Earthdawn, rather than being the hidden diamond in a dungheap like its fans hype, is actually going to turn out to be a thoroughly so-so yet overhyped game like M&M or Fantasycraft.

So, Earthdawn fans, give me the 411. Why the fuck should I care about this game at all other than fanboyism and the pluralistic ignorance it tries to take advantage of?

Yeah I've always been interested in the setting but I think the mechanics are the one thing that have kept me from ever trying it.

Fucking die steps.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Lokathar, a lot of those things you mentioned actually sound quite terrible. Seriously, multiclassing intervals based on a Fibonacci sequence? Common magical items that you buy and bind for various +1s?

I get that it meets my 'top ten' design goals better than 4th Edition D&D does, but it certainly doesn't meet it better than 3rd Edition D&D. Which is practically free.

[Lokathor]

Lokathar, a lot of those things you mentioned actually sound quite terrible. Seriously, multiclassing intervals based on a Fibonacci sequence? Common magical items that you buy and bind for various +1s?

I get that it meets my 'top ten' design goals better than 4th Edition D&D does, but it certainly doesn't meet it better than 3rd Edition D&D. Which is practically free.

No no, the cost to level up a skill is the Fib sequence. Instead of triangular like nWoD (3 x Dots) or linear like SR4 (4karma/rank). Monster XP and level up costs go up at the same rate as each other, so you don't really notice as much until you decide you want to add on a thing you've never used before, and it's very cheap to get it up to useful levels quickly.

As to magical items, you could honestly just not use magical items on your character if you don't want to, but most people want to buy magic items and they want to get higher stats with those magic items. So that much you can do with just having lots of money. The rest is MC controlled random treasures like DnD 2e.

[Ancient History]

First:

Look, I know that I've said that Shadowrun 4E is one of the better designed systems out there and Earthdawn borrows a lot in ideas and mechanics from Shadowrun

This is completely and totally inaccurate. Earthdawn came out before SR3. People were saying D&D3 was ripping off Earthdawn. Make of that what you will. The 2nd and Revised editions don't substantially change the rules or mechanics - all three are almost interchangeable except for a few tweaks to talents and disciplines.

Okay, everybody's bitched about the weird step dice mechanic - which, if you're unfamiliar, requires a bit of explanation. In SR4, for example, you would add Attribute + Skill = X, and roll Xd6. In ED, you would add Attribute + Skill = X, and then roll the dice indicated in step X. Which sounds a little wonky at first but becomes rather intuitive later on. Link to step table. There are some nerdwrangler probability things that makes the step table a good thing, but most people find it cumbersome.

The real highlight is, of course, the setting. Earthdawn basically makes an effort to give good reason why everything in your typical Dungeons & Dragons setting exists and works the way it does. The system is tied pretty tightly to the setting, to the point where in-setting information on magic and the like translates pretty damn well to game mechanics - this doesn't mean you're going to be having people in the sourcebooks talk about "+1 swords" and "levels" but they'll totally discuss "weaving spell threads" and what "circle" they are in a given discipline. For all that there are dungeons, dragons, wizards, and warriors however, the setting and system are decidedly untraditional - this is not Generic Fantasy Kitchen Sink Medieval Europe, this is Post Magical Apocalypse With The Return Of The Evil Empire, and as mentioned the "Disciplines" of Earthdawn are much looser than the classes of D&D, closer to a skill-based system.

In fact, that probably deserves a bit of explanation. There are a number of magical Disciplines (read: class), where advancement is measured in Circles (read: level); and which grant access to Talents (magical abilities), with a given Rank (number). Circles on Disciplines generally go up to 15 for major disciplines, 8 or 10 for lesser ones (like prestige classes); Talents go from 1 to 15. The thing is, you don't automatically go up a Circle when you reach X Legend Points (read: XP), you spend LP to raise your Rank in various Talents, to buy new Talents, make magic items, and if you want to, raise your Circle (which allows you to buy new Talents). There's a bunch of math and trade-offs, but the long and short of it is that the system is very flexible - you don't need to buy all the talents at a given circle or raise them all to some level to advance in Circle, and if you want to you don't have to advance at all - a Circle 1 Warrior adept with Melee Weapons 15 is going to kick ass; and as mentioned multiclassing is relatively easy - though expensive.

Which probably brings us to the fact Earthdawn has what is considered one of the best magic systems of any game ever. It's not the most versatile - many claim that the upper levels are either overpowered, underpowered, or just broken or pointless, and it's definitely not Mage - but there is a lot going for it. Spellcasting is wonky until you understand it's an effort to do Vancian spellcasting right; you have to spend time and effort to power up your magic items, but they can and do power up with you, unlike in D&D where you just toss away your +4 sword for a +5 sword. There is elemental crafting, blood magic, tattoo magic, blood tattoo magic, spirit summoning, nethermancy (like necromancy), old school illusionist stuff, all sorts of things.

Now, I'll be honest, the books vary in quality. Some of the earlier books, the setting hadn't quite gelled yet (Explorer's Guide to Barsaive), some of the later books are just dire (Theran Empire Sourcebook), the revised/2nd edition...meh. But there are also totally awesome books. The two-volume Denizens of Earthdawn is a beautiful guide to the eight player-character races (Humans, Dwarfs, Elves, Orks, Trolls, T'skrang, Windlings, Obsidimen), and Magic: A Manual of Mystic Secrets is probably one of the better magic supplements of any game out there.

There are some connections to the Immortal Elves and shit of Shadowrun, but honestly if that's not your bag you could ignore and never give a damn. There are also some mild insanities - viking trolls in wooden flying longboats and swashbuckling lizard-men come to mind - but those are all part of the fun.

[hogarth]

In ED, you would add Attribute + Skill = X, and then roll the dice indicated in step X. Which sounds a little wonky at first but becomes rather intuitive later on. Link to step table.

Wow, that looks really, really dumb.

[Lokathor]

In ED, you would add Attribute + Skill = X, and then roll the dice indicated in step X. Which sounds a little wonky at first but becomes rather intuitive later on. Link to step table.

Wow, that looks really, really dumb.

The 3rd edition adjusted it to take out the use of d4s and d20s. And most things you'll do will be in the Step 4 to Step 14 range for a very long while, so you don't have to remember the whole chart or anything.

When rolling, a maxed die "explodes" (roll again and keep adding), so the average result of any of the step values is equal to the step value itself (give or take a point).

[Ancient History]

Ain't gonna lie, it's weird. There is a sort of justification for it, though.

In SR, if I increase my dice pool on a test from 1 to 2, I go from rolling 1d6 (possible outcomes: 1-6) to 2d6 (possible outcomes: 2-12). In Earthdawn, the equivalent increase might go from rolling 1d8 (1-8) to 2d4 (2-8). In the former case, the addition of one die doubles the maximum outcome and increases the minimum outcome; in the latter, the minimum income increases but the maximum remains the same. The result is a more gentle slope than your average RPG - power rise isn't geometric. It's easier for people to play in groups at different Circle levels and still be effective, and relative power rise appears definite but more gradual.

At least, that's a possible rationale behind it. In practice, there are some wonky attributes that screw with things a bit, and the Durability talent means some characters have beaucoup hitpoints. But the basic idea is pretty sound.

[Kot]

Okay, I'm going to give it a shot, though I'm not sure I'm the right person to do this. I'm a long-time Earthdawn player, occasionally GM, and a big fan, though not as big as I were once (there was no new material for a while, so I grew bored with the game a bit). And I apologize if this post seems a bit incoherent. I didn't get much sleep, and the pain meds are messing with my head again. I'll try also to make this more clear to people who don't know much about Earthdawn.
First thing you should know is, that Second Edition is a piece of crap, game mechanics and storyline-wise. The 'a great dragon did it' excuse was way overused in the storyline, and the mechanics were even more needlessly complicated than in first edition. And don't even get me started on the details, because I'd ramble on till morning.

Basically, Earthdawn was remade by RedBrick Ltd., which consists of a group of hardcore system fans. Imagine Frank and Ancient gathering the old freelancer-veterans and remaking Shadowrun as Shadowrun Classic. It was kinda like that with Earthdawn Classic. It was First Edition with a lot of patches, fixes, and overall improvements, gathered in only a few huge sourcebooks, instead of dozens, heavily indexed and organized. And it worked. I know, because we started using it in our group as soon as it was released. And it worked wonders, comparing to the First Edition.
But it still had flaws that could be considered fundamental. Like the 'difficulty modifies step' rules, which messed things a lot. So RP decided to release Third Edition, and they did a pretty good job. First thing ED3 did right was getting rid of d4 and d20 from the Step system. That saved many people a lot of nerves, GM's and players alike. Second was fixing the step system by changing the way bonuses/penalties work. Instead of modifying the step number you add/substract them from the result. That fixed a lot of things, including combat mechanics. Other than that ED3 included a nice rebuild of the Discipline system (finally you have a choice which Talents to get), and hundreds of little fixes and clarifications for everything, from the magic items, to specific talents/skills/spells. And it works. We switched to ED3 right away (again) and had tons of fun with it.
Off course there were blunders, like the infamous falcon entry in the GM rulebook bestiary. The reason one single falcon can kill almost any first circle character could be explained as 'those buggers survived the magical daemon apocalypse', but still...
Earthdawn Third Edition isn't perfect. It's still doing a good job when it comes to fixing an old game system.

That's the mechanics. The fluff part stayed as it were in ED1 and was capped at Prelude to War, a storyline-driving adventure that made Barsaive a lot more interesting. So forget any ED2 storyline crap you might have heard. Vasdenjas is still kicking, and there are no unstoppable-horror-locusts swarming the land.
What Earthdawn has, that DnD (at least 3.x and 4.x) never had is the way all rulebooks are written. Everything that isn't game mechanics or gamemaster's guidelines was written as if it were a chapter from one of the books written by dwarven scholars (it's a real Discipline - being a wandering wise-ass scribe :P) from the Great Library of Throal. Like the book of Horrors for example - written as a study of those outworldish cthulhu-esque entities. There's even an instance where one of the scribes used the name of one particular Horror too much, and he ended like a classical HPL character. Like this:

(...)
Dandeer’s account ends here. Her attendants at a local shrine to
Garlen add a note that Dandeer can now walk well on her wooden
leg. Dandeer and other writers accept implicitly that Nebis can
notice and manipulate unwary Namegivers who invoke its Name
too often. Your humble scribe finds this unlikely, for Nebis Nebis
has not demonstrated clairvoyant powers of this Nebis description,
certainly not on those Nebis whom Nebis has not Nebis
already marked. Assuming such Nebis were true, the effects of
Nebis’s Nebis’s NEBIS’S manipulation would become evident
to an NEBIS observer. NEBIS To date no such NEBIS has surfaced,
despite the NEBIS diligent inquiry of one NEBIS who only
desires to NEBIS the NEBIS of the NEBIS Library of NEBIS,
and hopes that NEBIS superiors will NEBIS him with NEBIS
and NEBIS NEBIS NEBIS.

Enwid Deltern, 1445–1507 TH. Lochost preserve his memory.
—Merrox, Master of the Hall of R ecords

I admit, it might not seem as something really original, but when every single chapter of a rulebook aims to do that (even those that are filled with rules have some fluff quotes and introductions), you start to treat it as something natural. That is probably why I like Shadowrun so much. I know that's probably 4th world version of Shadowtalk, but it's still something. I've only seen it in really neat games, like Eclipse Phase, or the old CP 2020 for example. I could go on like that, but it would be only my opinion and point of view, and you need to make your own. ED is an under-appreciated game that has a lot of potential and no 'right way' of playing it. And it still*(?) has immortal elves and great dragons if you like them, but you're not forced by the storyline to set them up around every corner. Dunkelzahn/Mountainshadow is already warming up to metahumanity (Namegivers, as they are called), Ghostwalker/Icewing is still a manipulative dick, but they fit in the game nicely.


As for the list of things to fix in DnD:

Get rid of health/damage asymmetry.

You don't have to. Healing is much more common, and the damage system a lot more random. You can oneshot a dragon with a (magic) dagger, and it fits the game theme. You'd just have to roll over 250 on a 2d10 roll (off course the dragon's fate manipulation power will force you to reroll it, but still, you could kill that dragon with a dagger, because only non-magical damage is capped stepx3)... An average character has 3 recovery tests per day, rolling his Toughness step (Death/Unconsciousness thresholds are based on this, obviously) and removing damage according to the result. That, plus a ton of possible sources of healing test bonuses (spells, potions, herbs, skills, talents, and so on) and Wounds, that impart a penalty that applies also to healing makes up a health system that works well for a heroic, apocalyptic high-magic fantasy setting.

The high-level effects will actually have to reflect the reality of high-level.

There is no game core anymore. Just tiers, like DnD4 has, but it has taken them from ED, I think. Basically, you have Initiate (1st circle), Novice (2-4), Journeyman (5-8), Master (9-12) and Grandmaster (13-15) circles ('levels', but ones that are used in-game, though it's rude to do that to someone). And the endgame Talents are really something, like casting multiple spells as one, making up to 15 attacks per round, walking the (corrupted and haunted by Horrors) Astral, and so on. The spells at Master and Grandmaster level are legendary also, but in a good way. A Ressurection spell that leads the character's soul back to his body, and takes as many days to cast, as he was dead for. A fake, illusionary eclipse or sun, or a whole city in a bottle are good examples. There is no real threshold, though. You get better with each Circle and Talent level.

A decent multiclassing system.

It's there. You can take as many Disciplines as you want. There are a few 'buts', like the cost of talents will be higher with each discipline (the fourth will have all of it's talents as expensive as the engdame ones), or that you have to somehow cobble together the philosophy (yes!) of a Thief that goes by on deception and deceit, and a honorable, thruthfull Weaponsmith without making your character suffer an existential crisis (am I a thief that smiths weapons, or a weaponsmith that thieves?) that takes away some of his magic. Also, you need a teacher, a lot of time, and money (the instruction costs are exorbitant for a low-circle character). Or you can play a Human. Humans have the Versatility talent, that lets them learn talents from other disciplines (up to the Versatility level in both number and max level).

Stronghold Rules in core rules.

None, but you can claim one and Name it, giving you neat bonuses whenever you're there. The same can be done with the party - you create a Group, bound by a magical oath that lets you strengthen each other through magic. For example by raising your Durability talent (the 'bonus hit points' factor in Earthdawn) of your Wizard companion, so he won't die in a fight... again.
There are some rules that can be used for it, and guidelines to fill the rest. You can get your own river/airship though, with all the benefits and drawbacks (and easy-to-use ship battle system). And it sure has a name too, so you can also use it for your own benefit.


A decent default campaign setting.

It is. A few scattered, but influential city-states, one dwarven kingdom, one corrupted elven forest, one oppressive evil slaver empire fueled by magic. All of that in a world raising from the ashes of a deamon apocalypse, that isn't quite over. We've been playing for years, and some elements of the setting weren't introduced yet. But you can easily fit in your ideas, add a pinch of Barsavian culture and lore, and voilla. And you can always say 'it's ancient magic from before the Long Night', and put it in a Kaer or Citadel (they're basically dungeon crawls inclueded in the setting). Recently added was the Cathay rulebook, which was 'oriental adventured', only based off Chinese warring states era, and way better than the DnD one (which isn't really difficult). It even has it own novel series.

Actual save-or-sucks need to be re-implemented.

Most spells and abilities are hit/miss, but some need to be overcome by a Willpower roll, especially in case of creature and Horror abilities. You can have talents that allow you to 'dodge' spells, as with the basic dodge rolls. The same with social abilities, like taunt, or challenge. So, save-or-suck factor is there, and it's the right kind of ugly. For example, why are the mid-range Horrors so deadly? They can roll ~4d12 on a fear-inducing Terrror power, and you have to beat their result with your Willpower (usually d10) before you can do anything but soil yourself in a corner. That, and the power that lets them rip your skin of the body and turn it around for fun and breakfast (they do feed on pain, fear, and revulsion).

Expand, standardize, and fix the skill system.
There are plenty of skills to be taken, and even more Talents (the magical Discipline-based version). You can take your pick, and have fun jumping of flying airships to glide safely down, make your own blood boil while it's flowing from the wound, sealing it, or have an elemental pick a safe path and protect you while you walk on it.

A treasure accumulation system that is not ass.

Magical Items are uncommon, powerful and unique, and you can have only a finite number 'attuned' to you (and even that non-magician Disciplines cannot do until fourth circle), capped by the Threadweaving talent, which is also used that way for other Thread magic, like group and place attunement. Even if you buy a 'generic magic sword', it has its own name and probably history. If you use it a lot, and do great things, it's magic will be strengthened. And there's a ton of general magical treasure, like coldproof cloaks, magical zippo wands, and cauldron you can put on someone's head and boil it... Well, you can't do that last one, but it would be fun. :P
And there are more powerful magical items, at least twice as good as the general ones, but not unique, and artifacts, totally out of their league and one of a kind. Most of the examples in rulebooks are really nice, providing ideas for stories and even whole campaigns. Any magical item is also a plot device - you have to learn it's history to use it, and as you advance in ranks the knowledge gets harder to find and more dangerous to obtain.
Also, some treasures are just an excuse to brag about (look! a wyvern horn! *ding, you get XP for showing it off, proving how much of a hero you are for slaying one*), and then sell it. 'Harvesting slain monsters for XP and profit.'

A core rules class and powers system that is simultaneously more robust and more efficient.

It's consistent, robust and customizable at the same time. Complemented by special abilities, increases in Defense, and so on. As you get higher circles, there's even more of those. You even get minor magic abilities, that are mostly quite flexible (an Archer can make his own arrows, a Wizard can sense magic auras, a Sky Raider can use it to fix his airship, and so on). And yes, it's efficient. It makes you look at other games with disappointment, because their 'classes' are hollow pieces of game mechanics. In Earthdawn the Discipline is a way of life first, class second, or even third. And the world's magic system is at it's core - there's power in the Discipline magic, because people follow it, and the more of them do, the more power there is. In the old editions there were some Disciplines that had only eight, or twelve circles, because there weren't many Adepts following it, and thus the Discipline in question didn't have as much power.

Core classes which feel meaningfully different from each other.

They are. As I mentioned in the paragraph above, eac Discipline is a mix of philosophy and way of life as much as means of magical power. If you can find your own path that doesn't contradict it's core ideals, you can easily implement it in the path. Adepts are also champions of the common people, being natural born (or trained) heroes who fight the remnants of the Scourge, bandits, ork scorchers, evil theran slavers, wild beasts, and so on.
They're mostly compatible with each other, but there is none that makes you feel that it's redundant. Even with two kind of sky-roving disciplines, Sky Raider and Sky Sailor, there's a huge difference. Yes, both work best on airships, but the former is basically a wild viking-pirate-berserker, and the latter a civilized, swashbuckling, dashing swordsman from 'The Crimson Pirate', only his ship flies.
Even with different kinds of spellcasters that works wonders: Nethermancers are not necromancers - they're obsessed not with death, but with other planes of existence, and that's where all kinds of spirits come from (Horrors included). Wizards are 'book mages', but they work with Ideas and Ideals, like those in Plato's works. They take things apart by means of logic and magic, and find the core principle. Elementalists work with the five (4+wood) elements of creation, which have its own impact and relations with each other, and which create the world around. Also with elemental spirits, and the idea of balance. They're like druids who worship the elements, and nature only as the manifestation of elemental balance. Illusionists are showmasters, obsessed with the idea of world as a stage, and with truth as an ideal. They can use trickery, but not in a way that hurts the truth.

* I know ED is a 'prequel', but that would take into account the fact that SR was first.


And to answer Lago's question: because most of the thing you'd like DnD5 to have Earthdawn has already. And it's available, fun, and won't be screwed over by 'gaming gurus' like those you mention in the DnD thread, because the people of RedBrick are old-time hardcore fans. :P

[fectin]

go from rolling 1d8 (1-8) to 2d4 (2-8). In the former case, the addition of one die doubles the maximum outcome and increases the minimum outcome; in the latter, the minimum income increases but the maximum remains the same.

Also, your likelihood of rolling an 8 halves, which is wierd. And your liklihood of a seven or better drops by about 6%.

[Stahlseele]

(...)
Dandeer’s account ends here. Her attendants at a local shrine to
Garlen add a note that Dandeer can now walk well on her wooden
leg. Dandeer and other writers accept implicitly that Nebis can
notice and manipulate unwary Namegivers who invoke its Name
too often. Your humble scribe finds this unlikely, for Nebis Nebis
has not demonstrated clairvoyant powers of this Nebis description,
certainly not on those Nebis whom Nebis has not Nebis
already marked. Assuming such Nebis were true, the effects of
Nebis’s Nebis’s NEBIS’S manipulation would become evident
to an NEBIS observer. NEBIS To date no such NEBIS has surfaced,
despite the NEBIS diligent inquiry of one NEBIS who only
desires to NEBIS the NEBIS of the NEBIS Library of NEBIS,
and hopes that NEBIS superiors will NEBIS him with NEBIS
and NEBIS NEBIS NEBIS.

Enwid Deltern, 1445–1507 TH. Lochost preserve his memory.
—Merrox, Master of the Hall of R ecords

Blue-Skinned Dwarf with white Leather-Cap and white Leather-Trousers.
"Yes Papa Nebis"

[Kot]

@Fectin: There was a whole analysis of probabilities, for the step system both with and without d4&d20. I'd have to look for it, because it was linked through the old RedBrick forums and those are lost (double-checked that, and the article was indeed on the old RB site, below is something that looks similar, but I'm not sure if it's the same thing, because math is my Ban)...
I think it's this one, watch out, PDF format, and evil math inside.

@Stahlseele: Hmph... Never noticed that one. Now those blue SR dwarves from Germany start to make sense... Sinister, sick, silly sense.

[Stahlseele]

Querxe. Shadowrun has Smurfs. I still get a good laugh out of that one ^^

[Kot]

So, what if they're basically horrorfolk? Still funny, but useful. Your players will never see that coming.

[Stahlseele]

That's the idea behind it ^^

[Kot]

Yeah, I remember that one. Damn, that offtop demon.

[fectin]

@Kot: interesting paper, but his math is wrong in the parts that are easy to check (variance), and he's incorrect on a couple of principles, which makes me leery of accepting the rest of it.
To be sure that I know what I'm talking about though, it works like this, right? At step 1:
total = 0
Roll 1d6
While result == 6
total += 6
Roll 1d6
endWhile
total += result
total += -3
Return total

[Lokathor]

Yeah. The steps with a penalty listed have the penalty applied once at the end of all the rolling (and that's true regardless of the edition).

[Avoraciopoctules]

This thread is making Earthdawn sound surprisingly interesting. Next time I'm at a gaming store, maybe I'll see if I can find the new rulebooks.

[Lokathor]

The main things to look out for with Earthdawn that they don't quite cover in the books are (I'd say):
`Windlings (read: Pixies) can fly about, and lots of low level adventure kinds of things don't always account for that. They can only fly for a few minutes at a time before they get tired and have to walk again, but that can be enough to do some knot cutting.
`Everyone who's learning needs to write down their step total for each skill/talent they have and then put the dice expression for that step right next to it. You'll learn the step chart eventually, but looking it up every time before then is a pain in the ass.

[Kot]

@Fectin: Yeah, that's probably true. It's not the thing then, that one I was writing about was triple-checked by a friend of mine who *shudder* likes math. I'll try asking for the original RB article, maybe someone still has it.

@Avoraciopoctules: They're on sale online at the moment. And Earthdawn IS interesting. It's game mechanics need some time to get used to, but the setting is logical, living, and fun to play in.

@Lokathor:
1. Windlings (not exactly Pixies, but close) are covered in the Namegiver's Compendium. The adventures are mostly taking that into account. Especially ones like Terror in the Skies, where you have to get into a Windling Kaer.
Besides that, there are ways to avoid walking when you're a windling. That's why they like Trolls so much - you sit on their shoulder, and it's almost like flying.

2. The step table 1-20 is on the character sheet usually. We have our own variant, and there's one made by an acquittance that's even more functional.