[Non-US] News That Makes You laugh/cry/neither...

[Zinegata]

words

You seem to be under the impression that you're responding to me, but your response is so completely detached from anything I actually said that I can't see how you could possibly have actually read what I wrote and imagined that I said any of the things you claimed I did. I know who I'm talking to, so it's not weird that you'd take the side that's obviously wrong because unfailingly you conflate being in the minority with being correct, but the road you took to get there is dumb even for you, in that you usually manage to at least correctly identify what the conversation is about (hint: it's not about foreign intervention in Catalonia, a course of action which precisely zero people have advocated).

Cham, you were not addressed because again domestic lawyers and arguing over constitutionality are completely useless and irrelevant in this case.

That you can't accept your complete impotence and irrelevance over this matter is really a terrible reflection of how the American legal system keeps trying to meddle in matters they don't understand simply because there are too many lawyers and not enough actual court cases to pay for the said lawyers. It's the real reason why American society has become so mired in frivolous litigation to begin with.

[Voss]

This is again why - despite my misgivings over the police actions - a huge part of the blame lies with the Catalan government and the Catalans who elected them. They wanted to be a nation without understanding what being a nation actually means - such as having an actual police force and military to protect their own people which would come out of their citizen's pockets.

Well, actually...

This isn't directed entirely at you, but Catalan actually does have its own police force. And a lot of other stuff due to the Statute of Autonomy they operate under.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_o ... _Catalonia

So there is actually stuff they do pay for themselves, for their sort of vaguely limited government of their own. With all the bullshit and revisions that happened to the revised statute which makes it fairly unclear and messy.
It has some organs of government (police) but not others (courts, though they have their own civil law).

---

That said, the current referendum is illegal- in that it did not follow the requisite steps for approval outside (ie the Spanish government) or apparently inside the Catalan government itself.

That also said, bringing in Spanish cops to smack people in the face for going near the polling stations is also way out of line.

However, we are not talking about individual protesters here.

We kinda are, actually. The Spanish response focused way too much on kicking the shit out of people on the streets, and not rounding up the Catalan Independence organizers and holding them for violating the constitution or fraud or whatever the actual law says applies.

[Eikre]

The idea that authoring statute found to be unconstitutional would be criminal rather than merely inactionable is absolutely fucking hilarious.

The year is 2002. The Supreme Court has just determined that it is, in fact, perfectly okay to jack off to lolicon. As a result, former president Bill Clinton, seventy-two Senators, and three-hundred and seventy members of the 104th United States Congress are declared treasonous outlaws. They are summarily beaten by riot police.

[Mask_De_H]

The idea that authoring statute then found to be unconstitutional would be criminal rather than merely inactionable is absolutely fucking hilarious.

The year is 2002. The Supreme Court has just determined that it is, in fact, perfectly okay to jack off to lolicon. As a result, former president Bill Clinton, seventy-two Senators, and three-hundred and seventy members of the 104th United States Congress are declared treasonous outlaws. They are summarily beaten by riot police.

Somewhere on a *Chan board, a lolicon weeps at this future not coming to pass.

But if the referendum is illegal in the overall state and illegal in their autonomous sub-state, and if they aren't recognized or backed by the other regional powers, why do this here and now? Is it pushback against the staunchly conservative Spanish majority party and their king? It is because the main opposition party is more in-line with Catalonian independence? Is it a Brexit thing but since they aren't old yokels conservative, it's okay?

If nothing else, this whole mess is great PR for the Catalonian separatists: "fuck the legality or the ethics of Catalonian independence, look at these fascist pig cops coming to kill us all!" Nobody's going to argue this violence is positive; even Frank is saying (in between regularly scheduled pissing contests with both Kaelik and DSM) that the Catalonians better sack up or back down, since Spain is well within legal rights to do worse to them than they are now.

[Voss]

The idea that authoring statute found to be unconstitutional would be criminal rather than merely inactionable is absolutely fucking hilarious.

Not authoring the statue. Holding the referendum after being told it's unconstitutional.

You see, this process works by:
writing the statute
voting on the statue
the Spanish court examining the statute

In this case the Court, said 'Yeah, fuck no.'
The Catalan reps said 'fuck yes', and did it anyway, without any legal standing..

[Zinegata]

It has some organs of government (police) but not others (courts, though they have their own civil law).

The point is you need to have all the organs when you start talking independence, not declare independence and act shocked when relatively lightly armed police (rather than actual military units) walk all over your territory and beat up your supporters.

That also said, bringing in Spanish cops to smack people in the face for going near the polling stations is also way out of line.

Like I said, I abhor violence and don't support it.

But as it stands Westphalia Principle is almost certainly going to win out. This is an internal Spanish matter and until the world comes together to say otherwise it will stay an internal Spanish matter. And as I mentioned the world is currently being distracted by a madman in Las Vegas and another madman in DC.

We kinda are, actually. The Spanish response focused way too much on kicking the shit out of people on the streets, and not rounding up the Catalan Independence organizers and holding them for violating the constitution or fraud or whatever the actual law says applies.

That's because you're still confusing domestic law with international law.

The moment Catalan's government made it clear that they wished to proceed with independence regardless, the citizens who supported them technically became members of an opposing state. That's why Frank is completely correct in saying "it's war". Because war is very much the complete suspension of regular domestic laws and norms.

And really, people need to stop with the fiction that there are still "laws" and "rules" when it comes to war. Somebody who machine-guns a crowd is called a mass-murderer in peacetime. Somebody who does that during wartime is called a hero if the people he guns down are wearing an enemy country's uniform. Indeed, in many cases such as with the World War 2 Wehrmacht, it would have been illegal under military law for a soldier to disobey orders to machine guns crowds of unresisting civilians.

The confusion at the moment lies with the fact that rebellions are ultimately about re-absorption of the rebelling territory for the original ruler, hence a measure of restraint was usually exercised by those fighting the rebels. From a domestic law standpoint, those people were not citizens of Spain while Catalan maintained the fiction of independence, but would be re-absorbed back into Spanish rule once the rebellion ends.

What's happening here in this thread is really is just the typical American frivolous lawyering, where Catalanians who had expressly rejected their Spanish citizenship in favor of a new Catalanian one suddenly demand justice and protection from the very same Spanish regime they just rejected. Anywhere else such a ridiculous position would simply be called mass hypocrisy.

[Dogbert]

Without taking sides, I think people is mistaking what is legal with what is right.

Saying Spain didn't extend basic human rights to non-citizens (I don't know, I only know my own constitution, so AFAIK Mexico might be the only country who extends protection to anyone within its borders, we're chumps that way), Spain may be within its legal right to pull a Milosevic (again, I don't know). Granted, it would not be right, it would not be humane, but it would be "legal." Let's not mistake the two.

[Voss]

That's because you're still confusing domestic law with international law.

You're nuts.

The moment Catalan's government made it clear that they wished to proceed with independence regardless, the citizens who supported them technically became members of an opposing state.

First, no they didn't. They made it clear they were going to proceed with a vote ABOUT independence. At no point Monday did they become an opposing state.

That's why Frank is completely correct in saying "it's war". Because war is very much the complete suspension of regular domestic laws and norms.

You're both nuts with an absurd hypothetical, and no, it isn't. We've been at war repeatedly over the years, strangely you can still get pulled over for traffic violations and murder is still not ok.

And really, people need to stop with the fiction that there are still "laws" and "rules" when it comes to war. Somebody who machine-guns a crowd is called a mass-murderer in peacetime. Somebody who does that during wartime is called a hero if the people he guns down are wearing an enemy country's uniform. Indeed, in many cases such as with the World War 2 Wehrmacht, it would have been illegal under military law for a soldier to disobey orders to machine guns crowds of unresisting civilians.

Thats a damn weird example to bring up, because the legal principles established just after World War II say 'go fuck yourself and your crazy theory.'

The confusion at the moment lies with the fact that rebellions are ultimately about re-absorption of the rebelling territory for the original ruler, hence a measure of restraint was usually exercised by those fighting the rebels. From a domestic law standpoint, those people were not citizens of Spain while Catalan maintained the fiction of independence, but would be re-absorbed back into Spanish rule once the rebellion ends.

There is no 'fiction of independence,' you ass. Zero sane people on Monday believed Catalan was suddenly independent.

What's happening here in this thread is really is just the typical American frivolous lawyering, where Catalanians who had expressly rejected their Spanish citizenship in favor of a new Catalanian one suddenly demand justice and protection from the very same Spanish regime they just rejected. Anywhere else such a ridiculous position would simply be called mass hypocrisy.

No, whats happening here is extreme theorizing that has no basis in reality. The Catalans don't believe they declared independence on Monday, 'cuz they didn't.
The Spanish don't believe the Catalans declared independence on Monday, cuz they didn't.
The EU, ditto.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41514398

1 October: Catalonia holds banned referendum on independence, defying Spanish government and a Constitutional Court ruling; Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont says the independence camp has won.
2 October: The European Commission says it regards the referendum as illegal and an independent Catalonia would be outside the EU.
3 October: In a TV address, King Felipe said referendum organisers had showed their "disrespect to the powers of the state" and broken the rule of law.
4 October: Mr Puigdemont says a declaration of independence will come within days; the government says it will not give in to "blackmail"
5 October: Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy urges Catalan leaders not to declare independence. Constitutional Court bans session of Catalan parliament due on Monday.

Translation, because you're obviously a complete fuckwit:
No one declared independence.
Spain is talking about the rule of law, invoking courts and generally trying to talk to people in Catalan's mini government (while trying to stop said government from having parliamentary meetings).
They are NOT invading and reclaiming territory of a suddenly independent state. Seriously, this isn't a thing that is happening.

Some fucker in Catalan's government is still threatening to declare independence at some point ('days') in the future. [Hence, logically, it did not happen in the past]

Your bizarre anti-American rhetoric is not relevant to this conversation in any way at all. A referendum on independence is not independence. I'm honestly not sure how much further I can break this down for you.

But Spain pulling a page from Franco's book on Monday with the police isn't going to make this situation better. Because he was the last fucker that took away their autonomy with violence, and that comparison isn't going to escape many people.

The point is you need to have all the organs when you start talking independence

... just like no one, ever.

, not declare independence and act shocked when relatively lightly armed police (rather than actual military units) walk all over your territory and beat up your supporters.

And theirs. Though, again, not like anyone declared independence (yet)

Saying Spain didn't extend basic human rights to non-citizens (I don't know, I only know my own constitution, so AFAIK Mexico might be the only country who extends protection to anyone within its borders, we're chumps that way), Spain may be within its legal right to pull a Milosevic (again, I don't know). Granted, it would not be right, it would not be humane, but it would be "legal." Let's not mistake the two.

What? No, seriously, what? Stop reading what the crazy people are saying. It is not relevant to what is going on.

Spanish police pushed in the faces of a bunch of voters on Monday. Literally everything else is legal wrangling between the Spanish government and Catalan the semi-autonomous state {as in 'administrative district of Spain'}

But the Catalan question is risky for him {PM Rajoy}. His apparent inertia this week is coming under fire from the Spanish left - who want him to start a dialogue with Catalan separatists - and the harder right who want him to take immediate action, shutting the Catalan government down, bringing the reins of power back to Madrid. Spaniards call it "the nuclear option".

Seriously. The 'nuclear option' is shutting down the Catalan government. Not invading with tanks. There would definitely be protests (and probably violent ones) if they did, but taking away basic human rights from 'non citizens' isn't on the table. Non citizens aren't on the table.

[Username17]

Not letting your democratically elected representatives meet is a problem.

If you take their claims of sovreignity seriously, then occupying their capital with paramilitaries is a perfectly reasonable means to end the conflict.

You can only hold that the Catalonian separatists are being treated unreasonably if you don't take them seriously. If you do take them seriously, then you must applaud Spain's restraint for not firebombing Barcelona.

You can't both suggest that the Catalonian Independence movement is legit and say that Spain is not entitled to unlimited escalation of force to prevent it. Either it's an existential threat to the Spanish state or it's not. It can't be both.

-Username17

[Zinegata]

You're nuts.

The way international politics actually works IS nuts.... to spoiled brats who don't realize that their whining is based on relatively recent codification of "the rights of man" (US and French revolutions) and "self-determination" (World War 1). Nation states relations by contrast are still based off a 1600s-era treaty.

That you are not aware that's how the world really works and instead waste time on completely meaningless bleeding heart lawyering is the real tragedy and why the English speaking world is perpetually useless at solving anything. You still subscribe to the delusion that your (very recently minted) ideals will save you from your stupidity; whereas nations continue to operate off older principles that's still ultimately based on "Might Makes Right".

If you want to change that, whining to me does nothing. Support the UN or the EU and stop the idiots blocking things like the international criminal court instead of arguing with present realities.

First, no they didn't. They made it clear they were going to proceed with a vote ABOUT independence. At no point Monday did they become an opposing state.

More pointless attempts at lawyering.

Rebellions are not neat things with precise beginnings and ends. American Revolutionaries attempt to claim that their rebellion began on April 1775, but Britain had already declared Massachusetts in rebellion since February 1775. That's why figuring out these dates are left to future historians and anyone trying to argue the start date of a rebellion while its ongoing is just engaging in more pointless lawyering.

It doesn't matter what exact date the rebellion started. The intent and actions were already there. Indeed that Catalan fuckwits are still trying to declare independence makes this an ongoing rebellion.

You're both nuts with an absurd hypothetical, and no, it isn't. We've been at war repeatedly over the years, strangely you can still get pulled over for traffic violations and murder is still not ok.

Stop being a lying shit. War suspends your responsibility to the citizens of the opposing country, not your own. This should have been abundantly clear in my explanation if you weren't too busy frothing at the mouth because you were humiliated with your infantile understanding of actual international law.

Moreover Iraqi civilians have been shot routinely at US checkpoints due to traffic misunderstandings during the Occupation. Virtually none of these killings were ever prosecuted under Iraqi, much less American law.

That's the reality of war. That's why people should be actual fucking pacifists instead of fat nerds sitting pretty in America insisting that war isn't terrible and doesn't suspend laws; because while you sit pretty some poor brown kids are gonna get shot by GI Joe: Real American Hero and get no justice.

===

Moreover there is nothing bizarre with criticizing the behavior of Americans when they barge into situations where they have very little understanding; because Americans have a bad tendency to do this all the time with calamitous result. You just end up lawyering or post-rationalizing your "interventions" into something that's supposedly good for the world despite the pile of dead bodies and unjust killings.

And really, what's particularly sickening is how most of you fuckwits do it just to get a personal high rather than any serious attempt to help fix the world.

There are dozens of ONGOING independence movements right now. Most don't even have "humane treatment of the rebels" anywhere near the discussion. So while you beat your chest over how you are a wonderful sane person supporting humane treatment of Catalans there are people dying in Myanmar, Mindanao, and dozens of other places right now because Westphalian Principle prevails and rebellions are in fact treated as war.

Where's your sympathy for them, Mr Sane and Wonderful person? It seems it only materialized a couple of hours ago because you were trying to gain brownie points by "winning" Internet arguments.

Indeed the reality of your self-serving actions are a lot simpler. By supporting the Catalan independence fuckwits in their rebellion you are effectively supporting war along with all of the bad shit that will happen along with it. You don't get to say five months later that you didn't realize the Catalanians would "go that far" and start massacring Spanish people too, because that's always how the violence ends up becoming.

===

And really, if none of you can actually be bothered to understand the Indian Independence movement in great detail then please stop citing it along with Gandhi. Passive resistance was but one aspect of it. The rest of it was highly political, occasionally violent, and ultimately very messy.

Indeed, 2 million people died as a result of the independence that was imposed by Britain; not to mention that it also resulted in a series of Indo-Pakistani Wars that killed thousands more. The whole Gandhi narrative in the West was pushed largely to help the Brits wash their hands of the mess they left India and Pakistan in.

[Korwin]

And voting that you do not belong to your country anymore is not rebellion?

They where voting, where they all voting to get out of spain? No, only most...

So attacking voters without making shure to only attack on side. Sounds like an bad plan...?

[Zinegata]

And voting that you do not belong to your country anymore is not rebellion?

They where voting, where they all voting to get out of spain? No, only most...

So attacking voters without making shure to only attack on side. Sounds like an bad plan...?

The vote was already declared to be illegal and unconstitutional, hence the mere act of voting could already be construed as an act of rebellion.

No, democracy as an ideal doesn't change this Westphalian reality. To begin with democracy is far more than this completely infantile notion held by many around the world that it revolves around voting.

Voting is but one aspect in a very complex democratic system - all of which must be safeguarded and maintained. Politicians who are reductive and begin to pretend that "the vote" is all that matter tend to be ones that attempt to subvert and destroy the democratic system to begin with.

In the case of Catalan the complete failure to even address the fact that many in Catalan may have simply chosen to stay at home to protest the independence movement is a hallmark of one such subversion by the Catalan government - which is the refusal to acknowledge opposition parties and minorities.

[Zinegata]

Without taking sides, I think people is mistaking what is legal with what is right.

Saying Spain didn't extend basic human rights to non-citizens (I don't know, I only know my own constitution, so AFAIK Mexico might be the only country who extends protection to anyone within its borders, we're chumps that way), Spain may be within its legal right to pull a Milosevic (again, I don't know). Granted, it would not be right, it would not be humane, but it would be "legal." Let's not mistake the two.

Spain didn't even suspend basic human rights to the Catalan rebels.

That the hyperbole on the other side has spiraled into a hysterical lie that Spain is a fascist regime slaughtering protesters should easily demonstrate who's losing this argument really badly.

Frank and I are simply pointing out that Catalan is in fact in a state of rebellion, and that shit gets real when you get to that point.

If this happened in North Korea or many other nations with similar temperaments there would be no debate or calls for humanity. There would be tanks on the street crushing protesters by the dozen. And the world will do nothing about it, because not interfering with each other's internal matters is how nation-states work.

[Korwin]

And voting that you do not belong to your country anymore is not rebellion?

They where voting, where they all voting to get out of spain? No, only most...

So attacking voters without making shure to only attack on side. Sounds like an bad plan...?

The vote was already declared to be illegal and unconstitutional, hence the mere act of voting could already be construed as an act of rebellion.

No, democracy as an ideal doesn't change this Westphalian reality. To begin with democracy is far more than this completely infantile notion held by many around the world that it revolves around voting.

Voting is but one aspect in a very complex democratic system - all of which must be safeguarded and maintained. Politicians who are reductive and begin to pretend that "the vote" is all that matter tend to be ones that attempt to subvert and destroy the democratic system to begin with.

In the case of Catalan the complete failure to even address the fact that many in Catalan may have simply chosen to stay at home to protest the independence movement is a hallmark of one such subversion by the Catalan government - which is the refusal to acknowledge opposition parties and minorities.

Not talking about, is it legal, where they in their right, etc.

Only talking about, is this contra productive or not.
Beating up voters (who even might be voting for you!), sounds really, really contaproductiv. Unless you want to escalate the problem for some reason. --> which might be

[maglag]

In the case of Catalan the complete failure to even address the fact that many in Catalan may have simply chosen to stay at home

Well if in voting day I looked out of the window and saw her majesty's cops forming phalanxes around the boots while curbstomping anybody and everybody holding a piece of paper or pen, I would stay at home too.

The vote may not be all that matters, but is still a key part of democracy, and the glorious royal government of Spain declared "nope, you don't even get to pretend to vote, we're just gonna break your bones".

[Zinegata]

Not talking about, is it legal, where they in their right, etc.

Only talking about, is this contra productive or not.
Beating up voters (who even might be voting for you!), sounds really, really contaproductiv. Unless you want to escalate the problem for some reason. --> which might be

As I've noted several times, I'm a pacifist who abhors violence hence I don't approve at all of the Spanish police's actions. And yes, from a COIN / Rebellion handbook standpoint, attacking people who see themselves as merely protesting is generally counter-productive.

The difference is that I can fully see and understand that the Spanish government and their police forces should never have been put in this difficult position in the first place. Catalan put them in that impossible position and I'm not buying their shitty propaganda attempts to shift blame.

The Spanish government already told Catalan that they weren't going to accept independence. The Spanish court system already backed up the government. What is a country supposed to do when some people start openly flouting the country's laws in order to tear the country apart?

Catalan is what happens when unthinking (or manipulating) ideals meet reality. A large section of the country doesn't just suddenly become independent because a sizable section of the population "votes" for it or believes in it. It gets confronted by the reality that the province actually belongs to the nation, and that the rest of the country isn't about to sit there and accept it.

The Catalan government should have known that. Or they know full well but pursued the path that was most likely to result in actual military conflict anyway. That is beyond irresponsible.

[Zinegata]

Well if in voting day I looked out of the window and saw her majesty's cops forming phalanxes around the boots while curbstomping anybody and everybody holding a piece of paper or pen, I would stay at home too.

The vote may not be all that matters, but is still a key part of democracy, and the glorious royal government of Spain declared "nope, you don't even get to pretend to vote, we're just gonna break your bones".

Voting when your judicial and executive branches have explicitly declared that the specific election you are voting for is illegal - and not merely non-binding - is not democracy to begin with.

It is fiction that the referendum in Catalan was in any shape or form related to a real democracy. It's a combination of mob rule and political brinksmanship masquerading as democracy.

That you couldn't tell the difference is emblematic of why Western democracies are in such deep trouble.

[Dimmy]

Hang on. Have I got this correct:

Zinegata and Trollman believe that Spain is currently, today, in a literal state of civil war? As per "Guernica", "The Falling Soldier", friggin'..."Pan's Labyrinth", etc., etc.?

[Stahlseele]

So, what do you then call a part of a country trying to secede from said country if not a rebellion/civil war?

[Kaelik]

So, what do you then call a part of a country trying to secede from said country if not a rebellion/civil war?

Quick check, how many Texans is the appropriate number to murder when the Texas Governor says "we seceded" but literally nothing else happens?

Again, but this time, he just says "we are going to have a vote to see if we secede" and then his office gets the state voting infrastructure set up for said vote?

[Chamomile]

Cham, you were not addressed because again domestic lawyers and arguing over constitutionality are completely useless and irrelevant in this case.

You addressed me by name. And you are still speaking gibberish that has nothing to do with any position I actually took.

[Stahlseele]

@Kaelik
Because a stupid quick check deserves a stupid quick answer:
enough to make the IQ-Average rise a bit.

Seriously, what does that have to do with anything right now?

If you do not want to call a part of a country wanting to secede from the country a rebellion or a civil war, what do you then want to call it?

[Dimmy]

pay attention to meeeeeee

Fine, I'll fix it for you --

Hang on. Have I got this correct:

Zinegata and Trollman and let's not forget Stahlseele believe that Spain is currently, today, in a literal state of civil war? As per "Guernica", "The Falling Soldier", friggin'..."Pan's Labyrinth", etc., etc.?

There. Now you get to be the center of attention too. Feel better? Great. Now: could somebody please answer my original question? Because that seems to be the position Kaelik and Company are arguing against...and I have to admit, anybody who actually held that position should be argued against. On account of said position obviously being complete ever-lovin' nonsense.

[Ancient History]

If it's a revolution, then Catalonia has made the critical error of trying to have one without any actual revolutionaries. It is not, nor has anyone claimed, that this is an armed revolt - which of course is part of what makes Spanish cops cracking the heads of protesters look especially barbaric: when violence is a monopoly of one side, it paints them rather badly.

At the same time, the cops aren't out there cracking heads just because it's Tuesday and their blood sugar is low. The Catalan referendum is about as welcome in Madrid as the Southern states getting together to "discuss" secession was in D.C., and for about the same reason. The response was unnecessarily violent, but it's the sort of action that prompts a response. So Catalan has gone beyond existing legalities in holding the referendum, and the Spanish police have gone beyond commensurate response in dealing with it.

And to an extant, this is still domestic violence on a national level. Spain didn't call out the army to deal with protesters or anything like that, at least not from what I've read.

[Kaelik]

@Kaelik
Because a stupid quick check deserves a stupid quick answer:
enough to make the IQ-Average rise a bit.

Seriously, what does that have to do with anything right now?

If you do not want to call a part of a country wanting to secede from the country a rebellion or a civil war, what do you then want to call it?

Well probably it would help if you weren't a complete fucking idiot or if you had even the slightest clue about what is actually occurring.

Here's the thing, you fucking idiot:

a) people are allowed to want to secede as much as they want, so long as they don't actually do it. No thoughtcrimes is Spanish Statutes. So I call people wanting something "meh, just some people in the country not breaking any laws at all, you genocidal fuckface."

b) The actual government officials hadn't even developed a governmental position on secession, and still haven't, so the actual government hasn't even said "we want to secede." So still not a rebellion.

c) Even if the government officials did say "we as a subset of the country, want to secede" that still wouldn't be a fucking rebellion, because you have to actually say "and also, we want it so much we are going to stop respecting your legal authority" which is not something they did. Asking to be made a separate state is not a rebellion. Declaring you are is.

d) The relevant point about this whole matter and why I asked the question, is that if the governor of Texas declares a referendum tomorrow, and then people show up to vote, and the vote is 95% stay in the US, and 5% leave, then the voters didn't fucking commit rebellion by voting in a fucking referendum, invalid or not. And in fact, it's not the fucking voters job to find out if the referendum is valid, that's the job of the Court and the government officials instituting it. So when your answer is "obviously if the governor calls for a vote, that puts the entire state of texas in rebellion, and we have to nuke Houston now!" that makes you a fucking idiot. Because the state isn't in rebellion, the state is not in rebellion, and the governor broke the law.

And believe it or not, we actually have lots of ways to enforce the law on the Governor when he breaks it that don't involve shooting random civilians in the street until the problem is solved by genocide.