Legend: some dude's d20 clone

[K]

http://www.ruleofcool.com/

So the deal is that it's free until Dec. 9 and they are asking for Child's Play donations if you download.

I'm looking it over now. Thoughts later.

[A Man In Black]

His game SITE is named after a page on TVTropes. That's not promising.

Oh well, might as well take a look.

edit: READING SURE IS HARD.

[ishy]

I could have sworn there already was a thread up about 'legend', though I can't seem to find it anymore. Guess they might have made a lot of changes since it is being released now.

[Koumei]

His game is named after a page on TVTropes. That's not promising.

No it isn't. Tvtropes uses commonly used terms and phrases - "What it says on the tin" predates tvtropes, and the article "The computer/AI is a cheating bastard" is called that because it's the most obvious thing to type in when you want to know about the AI playing by different rules to you. But because every man and his grandma's dog knows about tvtropes, it seems you can't use a troped term these days without being accused of stealing from that site by some idiot or other.

The rule of cool has long predated tvtropes, and was generally used in roleplaying games as a way of overruling what the rules say (or don't say - making something up to cover a situation the rules are silent on in a suitably epic manner).

[A Man In Black]

No it isn't. Tvtropes uses commonly used terms and phrases

It almost never does any more in favor of just making shit up, but in this case it does, you're right. It's still an annoyingly misused phrase that is almost never actually used to refer to a thing that is cool or is actually transgressive, but bitching about the name of his website is really petty bullshit.

[Judging__Eagle]

Let's see some of these:

-assumes a 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 "legend" stat array; stronger than 3.5 and even Tomes would use, but only where it counts, a +3 mod instead of a +2 that can upgrade at level 4, and a second base +2 mod. So, +2 overall, and +1 to a prime stat.

-clearly state power progression at level 5-10 (flight, med-range teleportation) and 11-15 (death attacks?, long-range teleportation)

-character advancement, as a whole is covered, including items (PCs start at level 1 with a lesser item, w/e that mean, magic swords at level 1? nice, but not a new concept)

-items, 5 lesser... by level 19? (1, 4, 7, 11, 19) wek, a player should have grabbed all of their so-called lesser items before they pick up their artifact
-4 greater at 5, 8, 13 and 16
-2 relics at 10 and 14
-1 artifact at 17

Species

dorfs are... boring scotsmen, or drunken outcast Big Brother is Watching you get drunk and fight... scotsmen.

The parallels between this and the police recorded streets of england are interesting; and this racism is both now accepted and gone all the way into making fun of reality; without the creators apparent knowledge.

elves are plant singing, bark-armour crafting mages; nothing new here, except for a celtic influence in names, combined with gag-worthy nature-names. Here's a tip, those celtic words you're using? They have nature-related words among them, use that, please. Aside from that, it's basically more racism.


As for classes.... they're basically combining the worst parts of a Blizzard-of-Ability Specialties character pidgeoning fail with typical 3.F

Aside from a bunch of stuff that both I, and no one else, probably cares about, there's the occasional religious/racist offenese that is "shaman". Shaman... the racism abounds. There's not a single thing here that relates to actual shamanistic practices, except for the name. Almost any other word would have been more appropriate.

Racial Tracks; oh, wow, undead are a playable option at level one? Oh, wait, wait, wait. I remember that; and it didn't take three pages of widely spaced text to both completely cover the Undead issue, and outline several base classes, as of six years ago.

Skills are a bit better, outlining epic skill check results. With a DC 30 jump check, you can fly for 2 rounds, 3 rounds with a 35.

Diplomacy borrows the DDO model where it keeps enemies from attacking you as easily.

Feats; are the typical bag of d20 failure. Lots of pre-requisites for other feats. Prepare to pre-fill your income tax forms character sheets.

Items, honestly, don't care. A grab bag of both magical-medieval and post-industrial equipment. Also, location items, which is an interesting idea.

"Legends" basically, game breaking abilities? You can level up, and get a power that.... lets your whole group... level up? What the heck?

[ModelCitizen]

Old thread (about the beta document): http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=52252


I can't decide what I think of Legend so I'll just try to make a mid-level barbarian. I may be bad at this or get rules wrong, we'll see.

Human Barbarian 11, minus Path of Destruction, +Necromancy
Feats
Arcantric Accuracy (+2 to hit, up to +5 if focus-fired)
Damage Specialization (+Str Precision damage)
Livers Need Not Apply
Reckless Strike (Shock Trooper while standing still or charging)
Spirited Strength (basically +4 Str)

Attack-Boosting Items
Fury Stone (+2 Str)
Abandoned Arsenal (+5' reach)
Winged Armor (Flight, gauntlets +3/3d6+3+KOM, +level to damage after swift action)

KOM:[/b] Strength 36 drunk and raging (using default stat array for base 16)
Reach: 15' raging
Attacks: +28/+28/+23/+23 with Flurry
Damage/Attack: 3d6 + 12d4 + 67, 3d6 gauntlets + 12d4 Chill Touch +3 magic item +13 Str +13 Str again [Precision] + 11 overloaded Winged Armor + 22 Reckless Strike + 5 Enervating Strike (actually a negative level)
Equal-Level Character Kill Rate: one per round, two if lucky, assuming AC 31, 100-150 HP, and enemies nice enough to stand within 30' of each other.

I'm not sure if Chill Touch is supposed to work like that so feel free to say this guy isn't legal. Alternative melee builds include a 40' reach Elven Wardance monk I don't feel like fully writing out.

[Seerow]

-assumes a 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 "legend" stat array; stronger than 3.5 and even Tomes would use, but only where it counts, a +3 mod instead of a +2 that can upgrade at level 4, and a second base +2 mod. So, +2 overall, and +1 to a prime stat.

How is that base array higher than what 3.5 or tomes uses? It's a 28 point buy array, which is pretty standard for a mid power game. For a higher power game a lot of people use 32pt buy (hell I saw recently some retard trying to argue that if you don't use 32 point buy and start with an 18 in your prime stat you are retarded and don't know how to play)




As for all the racist accusations, really? Have we gotten to the point of political correctness where we now can no longer even have fantasy races without people accusing shit of being racist?

[Previn]

So the deal is that it's free until Dec. 9 and they are asking for Child's Play donations if you download.

Minor side note : The proceeds of 'donations' go to Child's Play in his name, which probably equates to a nice tax write off.

I could just be jaded though.

[JigokuBosatsu]

Here's the real question, though: how badly does the Monk suck?

[ModelCitizen]

Here's the real question, though: how badly does the Monk suck?

Not at all, as far as I can tell. I haven't had much time to look at it but I'm more worried about rogue and paladin.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Best Star Wars d20 I've seen.

[Avoraciopoctules]

There's no Perception skill tax.

Awareness
Some abilities (predominantly skill checks) are attempts to carry out an action while evading a creature’s notice. Awareness is your character’s general ability to notice such attempts. You calculate Awareness as follows: 10 + your level + your character’s Wisdom modifier + any other applicable modifiers. Awareness can be increased by any track feature, feat, or effect that would normally modify a skill. Additionally, you may apply the highest of any item, feat, or track feature Awareness bonuses to your Geography, Larceny, Nature, or Perception scores.

Also, the difference between the lockpicking skill and Disable Device is clearly indicated. With Disable Device, you leave obvious evidence.

EDIT:

OH WAIT.

There's a "Perception" skill in addition to your Awareness modifier.

Perception (Wis) is your character’s ability to sense your surroundings and the intentions of your opponent.
You make Perception checks to detect traps or to observe your surroundings to detect clues or anomalies in your environment. Some abilities and vision modes also allow you to make a special Perception check to detect a creature or creatures using the Stealth skill; in such cases, the DC for your Perception check is 10 + the creature’s total Stealth modifier.
In a social encounter, you can make a Perception check when attempting to evaluate the truth of your opponent’s claims and the vulnerabilities of your opponents. The DC is equal to 10 + the level of the opponent + the opponent’s Charisma modifier.

[Judging__Eagle]

-assumes a 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 "legend" stat array; stronger than 3.5 and even Tomes would use, but only where it counts, a +3 mod instead of a +2 that can upgrade at level 4, and a second base +2 mod. So, +2 overall, and +1 to a prime stat.

How is that base array higher than what 3.5 or tomes uses? It's a 28 point buy array, which is pretty standard for a mid power game. For a higher power game a lot of people use 32pt buy (hell I saw recently some retard trying to argue that if you don't use 32 point buy and start with an 18 in your prime stat you are retarded and don't know how to play)




As for all the racist accusations, really? Have we gotten to the point of political correctness where we now can no longer even have fantasy races without people accusing shit of being racist?

If you make your Dharas drunken scotsmen, or your Elves badly written Celtic-hippies, you are racist.

That's not political correctness. That's privileged white Americans thinking they can run roughshod over other cultures and have a nice laugh at the drunken dorfs or the poncy elves.

I'm guessing that you never read Dead Man's Hand, if so, here's a really good summation on fantastic species:

Lago wrote:
Am I just being too overly sensitive for finding this topic offensive, especially the description on races?


Not really. The year is 1854 or so, and things are really offensive. People, real live human beings who can talk are owned as property and repeatedly raped so that they will give birth to a new generation of people that will also be owned by the people who raped them. The Cherokee live in Oklahoma because white people wanted their gold mines and prosperous cities and fvcking took them away in gross violation of treaty.

The old west is a really offensive time and place. And if you can read about it and not have your heart catch in your throat a little bit there's something wrong with you.

And every time you have real human beings replaced with some sort of specifically non-human creature that on some level cheapens them. No matter what kind of magic powers you ascribe to them, the fact is that you're making them "non-human". On some level they just aren't as worthy in your story as they actually are in real life. The entire concept of the elf, regardless of the culture which spawned the legend, is a way to explain away the extermination of peoples.

The statement "There were great people here before, they had powers and culture, but they became small and live underground" is a fvcking euphamism for genocide. Every single race I have written up so far is itself a euphamism for genocide. The Wakyambi, the Sidhe, the Efreet, the Alfar - all of these are stories from the world to explain why there are remnants of cultures who are all fvcking dead.

In any language. In any civilization. In any corner of the world where you find stories of "elves" you are finding evidence of a crime so heinous and so massive that it defies description and becomes euphamistic legend. Everyone in this setting is an elf, and it's really offensive. It's supposed to be.

-Username17

Making dwarves a stereotype of an existing culture group is racist, especially if it's a known stereotype of an existing culture group. When it's done "for flavour" it's basically saying that it's ok. Racism is never ok.

Tomes assumes that characters get the elite array, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, just like the 3.5 rules do. With characters gaining their power from class levels and equipment.

"High stat" games are for people who want easy mode.

[Seerow]

"Blah blah oversensitive bullshit blah blah racism blah blah stupid americans blah blah"

That's pretty much what I got out of your post. Seriously, at some point you have to step back and realize you're playing a game. Fact is coming up with some 100% unique culture is damn near impossible, so yes people are going to borrow from cultures that we know. To keep them feeling different, it will likely be from cultures that are different from the target audience.

Seriously you're making a big deal out of nothing here. You'd actually have a better argument with Orcs being racist against tribal cultures.

Most of the PC races are considered good and equal to the humans, not subhuman beasts that should be looked down upon as inferiors. If the setting was written such that your scottish dwarves were an inferior race that were subjugated by the superior white humans; or about how these lazy unintelligent fried chicken loving watermellon eating goliaths needed to be hunted down into extinction or placed into slavery for their own good, you'd have a point worth considering, but that isn't the case. As far as I know it never has been.

Tomes assumes that characters get the elite array, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, just like the 3.5 rules do. With characters gaining their power from class levels and equipment.

Do you know anybody who actually takes that exact array? Because even if you do accept that is the baseline power level, the elite array is still a 25pt buy. Legend's baseline is 3 points higher than that. Nothing extraordinary.

[Judging__Eagle]

Seerow, your privilege is showing. Hard. You may want to step back and look at yourself in the mirror and think of how often your appearance simply allows you to run around without being accosted, detained or harassed by anyone in authority.

Since your privileged opinions are so obviously tainted by your unrealized privilege, I'm going to ignore the racist-apologia of what you're saying, and ask you to read that post again, specifically what Frank wrote.

Claiming that others are "making a big deal" about what you assume is "nothing" is the very definition of using unrealized racist privilege to ignore racism as if you have no part in its fostering.

Sweeping under the rug anything you don't want to hear or be brought to your face is only denial of privilege.

You still have five other steps to go through before you can come to grips with the fact that you live in a highly racist society, and that you benefit from it simply by existing within it. If you are doing nothing to counter it, then you're silently consenting to ongoing racism.

As for your entertainment. If you're not willing to recognize and confront racism in your entertainment, are you even going to bother in the rest of your life? Chances are slim to none. If you're not willing to acknowledge that your entertainment is racist, then how can you be expected to improve or critique it so that it is no longer racist?

If you want to see what a non-racist take on human cultures in a game can look like; as I said previously, read up on Dead Man's Hand. It sets the bar for what a culture analogue in a game setting should look like. Properly researched, accurate and not prone to stupid shallow stereotypes.


The reasons that I find this an important part in storytelling and game design is that I want to design for a global market, because my most favorite stories to retell at storytelling circles are from around the world. I'd be a boorish monster to appropriate Anansi stories and then not be willing to tackle and confront racism in my setting write-ups.


As for the elite array, I take it to make a point when designing NPCs in my own campaigns. Base stats don't mean shit compared to how a player manages all of their potential options. I also tend to build NPCs of the same, or lower, level than the PCs. Because I like to challenge them without using Story Narrator cheat codes.

I also enjoy playing a baseline human in tomes games to see first hand if, when, and where , there are power discrepancies between characters. Not everyone needs to be an Evil Bracelet, Malenti Vampire Barbarian or Fire Lich Fire Mage.

[CatharzGodfoot]

DMH isn't "a non racist take on human culture"; it's intentionally offensive. It uses stereotype for critique and parody.

[Seerow]

I love how you assume I'm a white guy. I'm actually inclined to call you racist based on this assumption. Seriously, you are taking the words of one individual whom you have never met on the subject of a fucking game, and extrapolating that to mean I am a white guy who tramples over the minorities. Give me a fucking break.

(Oh for the record, I am hispanic. It's not any sense of privilege shining through, it's knowing that there's a difference between a cooperative game in which the stereotyped cultures are portrayed in a generally good light is a long ways away from actual racism)

Seriously, you have nothing to show about how using stereotypes for an imaginary fantasy race that may resemble some aspects of a real life culture is bad, let alone racist. At best you have stereotyping, which is a long step away from prejudice, let alone racism.

If you want to try to design races with 100% unique cultures that have no tie ins to any real life culture ever, you're welcome to try. But expecting that of anyone is asinine. More telling is that if you do so, most players will simply ignore the culture you put in for your race, and tie it back into something that they actually know anyway.


But please do keep trying to browbeat me about how not being offended by scottish dwarves makes me a terrible racist person. Your whole tirade is hilarious.

[Judging__Eagle]

Critique and parody aren't inherently racist. DMH write ups are not inherently racist, even if the people being discussed are, or affected by, racists.

The write ups are presented as a combination of facts about the species; and then how they are mistreated by others, and/or mistreat others. As well as discussing the stereotypes and why they are illogically believed by others.

Content that discusses racism as a problem isn't that offensive. Content that treats racism as acceptable and normal is.

Seerow, for me, what it boils down to is that I find white people to be highly pro-homogenousness. Especially in some parts of north america. If you're different enough, they have no problem putting the boots to you, whether you're a child or an adult. People who accept any of that thinking as being "not worth confronting" are basically pro-culturist, pro-racist and anti-pluralist.

If you're entertainment comes at the silent, consented, and un-confronted, cost of marginalizing, exoticizing and stereotyping other cultures. Then you're no better than an audience thinking that white actors in blackface are non-racist entertainment.

I think that's really what it comes down to. If you present or portray species in as a culture stereotype it comes across as Blackface acting, and that's horribly offensive, whether most people realize it or not.

[Juton]

Seerow, your privilege is showing. Hard. You may want to step back and look at yourself in the mirror and think of how often your appearance simply allows you to run around without being accosted, detained or harassed by anyone in authority.

I've been on this board so long that I actually thought this rant was a sarcastic attack on the more politically correct denizens. Despite how Seerow took it and JE's response I'm still not sure I'm wrong.

[Gx1080]

....and this racism is both now accepted and gone all the way into making fun of reality; without the creators apparent knowledge.

>notsureiftroll.jpg

Nice to see that someone keeps the real Tolkien's spirit.

Jokes aside, you really haven't seen racist stuff if Scottish Dwarves offend you. So get stuffed.

[Ice9]

Tomes assumes that characters get the elite array, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, just like the 3.5 rules do. With characters gaining their power from class levels and equipment.

"High stat" games are for people who want easy mode.

I have never actually been in a game that used that array. It ranged from methods that produced slightly higher results to methods that produced much higher results. And it's not like there were low-stat games I refused either - I haven't even seen one.

For that matter, I can't recall any of the Tome games played on this board that used that stat array. IIRC, they varied from pretty generous to "pick whatever stats seem reasonable".

[ModelCitizen]

Wow, what the fuck happened in here.

Anyway, as a huge racist I like Legend a lot more than I thought I would. The couple test characters I've made are all Frankensteins of thematically unrelated options, but they're fun to build. They're weird but they're not boring. I can't find anything that looks like One Build To Rule Them All or anything. At least it seems hard to get hugely higher melee output than a straight barbarian with the obviously good feats, although I could just be bad at optimization.

I'm looking forward to whatever release has monsters in it. It's great that building racist characters is fun but to run a game I'd need monsters to be racist against.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Things I like: Character Creation being a fairly straightforward combination of 4 tracks which can be switched around inexpensively. I like the limited spellcasting and modified skill list. KOM and KDM seem useful enough in reducing MAD.

Dislikes: There are still widespread formatting/editing issues. There are too many features retained solely as d20 conventions.

A note on the racial fluff: JE appears to be a fucking idiot. Looking at the dwarf writeup, while it certainly fits dwarven stereotypes (live underground, care about racial history, have stupid names, drink alcohol) other than the use of the word clan nothing is particularly Scottish, and it's not as if Scotland traditionally had a monopoly on such anyway.. Honestly, his snap judgment is far more racially insensitive than anything in the text. Frankly, using stereotypes could just be seen as a shorthand, since a great many games cleave to type, calls of tacit racism notwithstanding. Besides, who cares about the fluff? Why not just bitch about the 'What is Roleplaying' section, if one wants to be a useless loudmouth?

[JigokuBosatsu]

In the real world, talking as if there were multiple sentient humanoid species is racist. Because there aren't. In science fiction and fantasy, if there are multiple sentient humanoid species, then talking about them is normal and fine. Otherwise, even acknowledging the existence of elves and dwarves itself would be racist. Or space aliens, or robots. Whatever.

As far as the book goes, I'm definitely liking it more the more I read it. Maybe not perfect mechanically, but it definitely seems like they went into it with some forethought. And there was an aside in there, can't remember what it was, that seemed as if they were afraid of the wrath of the Den if they got it wrong. But maybe that was just me.