CCG based Tabletop Games

[Seerow]

So, one thing I see mentioned frequently around here is many people commenting how much better balanced and popular most card games are relative to tabletops. I've seen some people mention if the M:tG team put out a tabletop, they'd play it.


But here's something I'm curious about is if there is any history of attempts to make a Tabletop based around a CCG. Like you have some degree of lore backing up everything, but they still tend to be more focused on an individual match between two players.

Has there been anything attempting to balance card games using more players, as a mechanical portion of a tabletop game? Like each character's actions are represented by a deck of cards, and the GM either has options for encounters independent of cards, or a deck of cards following different rules from the players (basically things to allow for easier use of actions for multiple monsters without needing multiple decks).



It sounds like a clusterfuck, but I can't help but wonder if something along these lines has been tried, and if not, if the concept has some sort of potential.

[TheFlatline]

Let's be specific. When you say tabletop games, you're referring to RPGs. Magic is a mess compared to some of the better designed tabletop games.

[...You Lost Me]

I have no idea if anyone has done this in the past, though I know there was some sort of MtG spell organizational method. I don't remember what it was called or where it is.

On the topic of CCG-->RPG conversions, CCGs have a lot of material, which makes thinking of ideas pretty easy in designing an RPG. But all CCGs have banlists and errata and are constantly releasing power-creep cards or invalidating old stuff to keep interest high. It just doesn't seem like a compatible model with TTRPGs.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to make my players fight a Thorn Elemental, but I don't think whipping out a card and applying it to the game is a good idea.

[fectin]

L5R

[Desdan_Mervolam]

I don't know if it would work because balance works out weirdly differently in CCGs than TTRPGs. In TTRPGs, balance is intended to make sure that everyone has fun and no one steals attention from everyone else. In CCGs, it's there to make sure that a variety of strategies are viable and no one combo or strategy dominates. These are similar goals, but they play out differently because succeeding at the goal is more important in CCGs. In a TTRPG, you can hotfix balance problems as they come up and players can just ignore the existence of exploits because the point of TTRPGs is to complete quests and have fun.

This doesn't work with CCGs, well really, at any level, but especially not above casual play. The goal of a CCG is to defeat your opponent. So, when people say that you really need to be playing a specific combo, you really need to seriously consider it because if you don't, odds are you won't win. Unlike with TTRPGs, you won't have a GM and other players backing you up if you make a bad deckbuilding decision.

CGG makers combat this by playing an endless game of Little Dutch Boy, plugging holes, issuing nerfs and buffing things as they surface, and TTRPG makers can't really do this. Errata for a given game is a tangled, widely-ignored mess as-is.

[Wesley Street]

The latest Gamma World utilizes elements of CCGs. The box set comes with a core deck and there are boosters for abilities and gear cards. But it may not be quite what you mean by CCG --> TTRPG.

[Ancient History]

There is a history of CCGs based on RPGs (Rage, L5R, Vampire: the Eternal Struggle, Spellfire, Shadowrun TCG, etc.), and some limited adaptations of other tabletop games (Settlers of Catan), but there are few cases where CCGs influenced or spawned tabletop games- I know that CP2020 included rules to use Netrunner for hacking at one point, but that is the extant of my recollection.

[angelfromanotherpin]

There is a history of CCGs based on RPGs (Rage, L5R, Vampire: the Eternal Struggle, Spellfire, Shadowrun TCG, etc.), and some limited adaptations of other tabletop games (Settlers of Catan), but there are few cases where CCGs influenced or spawned tabletop games- I know that CP2020 included rules to use Netrunner for hacking at one point, but that is the extant of my recollection.

The L5R card game predates the RPG.

[shadzar]

So, one thing I see mentioned frequently around here is many people commenting how much better balanced and popular most card games are relative to tabletops.

CCGs are NOT balanced at all. they make a card, slap a mana cost on it for MtG, and just futz with the mana until it works close to how it should. every card is NOT balanced against the over 18000+ cards. popularity is because it is cheap to enter into the CCG games, and it fills a void where baseball cards once existed.

the neverending cycle of buying new cardsis NOT how most people play a TTRPG. CCGs are built for tournaments, and tournaments failed as a concept for TTRPGs, though many still play then like they are a CCG with competitiveness, collecting all the books, powergaming with the "best options".

TTRPGs you can buy a few things and you are done. CCGs you have to constantly keep buying, VERY few people into CCGs buy only a few things and stop but continue to play.

they really are two different worlds that dont bridge as one is competitive, and the other cooperative.

[A Man In Black]

There is a history of CCGs based on RPGs (Rage, L5R, Vampire: the Eternal Struggle, Spellfire, Shadowrun TCG, etc.), and some limited adaptations of other tabletop games (Settlers of Catan), but there are few cases where CCGs influenced or spawned tabletop games- I know that CP2020 included rules to use Netrunner for hacking at one point, but that is the extant of my recollection.

Shadowfist's release predates Feng Shui, although I'm given to understand they were developed more or less concurrently. There's L5R. As I recall, 7th Sea's CCG came out before the RPG books, but it was near the same time and I could be misremembering.