The Dark Reflection

[Username17]

So having made back the money for an ISBN inside of a month on After Sundown, I am now committed to writing more books for the series. The first book will be called "The Dark Reflection" and feature most prominently: The Dark Reflection. As we speak, I am blocking out the book and writing segments.

So provisionally, the book contains:

• The Dark Reflection
  • Intro Chapter, discusses Limbo
• Denizens of Hell
  • A Bestiary plus some more information about Demons and Fey.
    Rules for playing an Asura in an In Media Res game.
    Possible: Bonus playable type "Beast".
• The Goblin Market
  • Economics in Limbo. Price lists, how to buy things and slaves.
• Terrible Places
  • A bunch of location writeups for stuff in the Dark Reflection.
    A description of the Hellmouth in Fremont and Kuala Lumpur.
• The Three Shadows of the King
  • Metaplot about the King with Three Shadows.
    Stat lines for a bunch of antagonists, including all three Shadows.
• Infernal Cults
  • Metaplot about the Ash Walkers, Church of Set, Laughter Factory, Order of Daziban, and Stellar Oracles.
    Possible: Alternate abilities for Infernal Sorceries.
• Burning Souls
  • Fluff material about Nezumi, Daeva, Baali, Android, Mi-Go, and Fallen.
    Fiction pieces.
• Magic Wretched and Profane
  • Magic Stuff. Magic item writeups. Fluff about Infernal Tomes.
• Filth and Corruption
  • Bonus rules about diseases and bugs.

Here is the blocking for the Stellar Oracles (the unfinished text is left out on purpose, I'm just showing the pacing):

---

The Stellar Oracles
“Your reign of terror ends now!”

Teachings of the Oracles
“The future is more important than the past because it is your fault.”

The Nature of Time
“Not all roads lead to the same place. But all roads lead somewhere.”

The Legend of the Queen
“Everyone wishes they were important in a previous life. We actually were.”

Status in the Oracles
“Saving the world should get you more respect than it does.”

Protect the Weak
“Rice does not fight, but it is still important.”

Fight the Future
“You can not fight what you do not understand.”

Love & Justice
“Everyone wants happiness, only the paths differ.”

Names of the Blasphemies
“We're going to need some bigger swear words.”

---

OK. Is there anything that people really do or do not want to see? Does that setup sound functional?

-Username17

[Lokathor]

I vote heavily towards bonus infernal sorcery powers, and also towards an Infernal Beast playable type. If this is the start of a series anything you don't do now probably won't get done much at all, so even if it's just a few extra Basic powers you should write them.

[fbmf]

So having made back the money for an ISBN inside of a month on After Sundown

Congrats, Frank! That is awesome.

(I don't play AFTER SUNDOWN so I have no requests or comments.)

Game On,
fbmf

[Quantumboost]

The Legend of the Queen
“Everyone wishes they were important in a previous life. We actually were.”
[...]
Love & Justice

^_^ ^_^ ^_^

OK. Is there anything that people really do or do not want to see? Does that setup sound functional?

Something in Song of Swarms for webslinging would be awesome, since Spider-man is part of the source material, and Infernal magic doesn't seem to have a "trap people physically" ability at the moment. That's all I have off the top of my head.

[RobbyPants]

Slightly off topic, but where can you buy the PDF?

[CatharzGodfoot]

Frank, what would the 'Beast' be? The more subtle sort of Beast from, say, The Stand is already doable with existing types and powers (aside from his 'tokenize' ability, which is very similar to Mirror Pocket -- a possible alternate?). I'm struggling to see the need.

Something with Bagheera-like hulk powers? Aura of Decay or Flames of Panic? Ghoulish feeding schedule?


Other than that, it looks like a good list. In the intro Limbo system, a bit on technology in Limbo would be nice. Like whether I can use my cellphone, effects of radiation and EMPs from nuclear bombs, etc. And also how the whole 'the more hellaciously destroyed it is on Earth the more whole it is in Limbo & vice-versa' works, and whether things like the Library of Alexandria slip into the Deep Dark Reflection or become gates.

Something in Song of Swarms for webslinging would be awesome, since Spider-man is part of the source material, and Infernal magic doesn't seem to have a "trap people physically" ability at the moment. That's all I have off the top of my head.

Spiderman is probably an Icharid with Water Prison, not some kind of Infernal.

[Ancient History]

Slightly off topic, but where can you buy the PDF?

http://store.payloadz.com/details/94654 ... ndown.html

I might be interested in a bit on Hellblazers - those mortals (or otherwise) whose primary occupation is dealing with the forces of hell, but who are otherwise not affiliated with "the opposition" so to speak. So you can have Giovanni-like necromancer clans, freelance former demons on the edges of the Goblin Market, exorcists that sleep with the enemy, etc.

[Orion]

I want a whole chapter on Shallow Limbo. What kinds of Limbo creatures lurk there and how they get there, when and why bleeds happen, what PCs might want to do there, etc.

[Username17]

I might be interested in a bit on Hellblazers - those mortals (or otherwise) whose primary occupation is dealing with the forces of hell, but who are otherwise not affiliated with "the opposition" so to speak. So you can have Giovanni-like necromancer clans, freelance former demons on the edges of the Goblin Market, exorcists that sleep with the enemy, etc.

Good point. A thing on demon hunters seems definitely doable. Do you think that having them show up as a sixth piece in the Infernal Cults chapter would be enough, or should there be more than that?

I want a whole chapter on Shallow Limbo. What kinds of Limbo creatures lurk there and how they get there, when and why bleeds happen, what PCs might want to do there, etc.

Very good point. That should be in there, yeah.

Frank, what would the 'Beast' be?

More than one person has requested a genuine monster. Gargoyles, Minotaurs, Xenomorphs, etc. It's... under consideration.

Something in Song of Swarms for webslinging would be awesome, since Spider-man is part of the source material, and Infernal magic doesn't seem to have a "trap people physically" ability at the moment. That's all I have off the top of my head.

As Catharz noted, Spiderman is really more of an Icarid. His webbing may technically be being pulled off with Grass Rope. However, I think there might very well be room for a Song of Swarms path where you web people up and stick face huggers own their throat seems doable.

-Username17

[Quantumboost]

@Spiderman being Icarid: Yeah, I've always modeled him as such. I just strongly associated his powers with "bug magic". Grass Rope and Water Prison would work too, though, now that I actually think about it.

More than one person has requested a genuine monster. Gargoyles, Minotaurs, Xenomorphs, etc. It's... under consideration.

Hydralisks = hell yeah.

[Josh_Kablack]

Why a Pittsburgh writeup belongs in any such book:

• Jame's Parton's 1868 "Hell with the lid-off" quote.
• A skyscraper supervillain headquarters made of mirrors and exactly big enough to serve as a portal for godzilla.
• A serious, if disputed claim as the Zombie capital of the world
• Over 700 bridges for trolls to hide under in the county, some with elaborately concealed lairs of highway gravel (north end of Birmingham Bridge) or layered tarps (Arlington Avenue under the Liberty Bridge and the LRT trestle) that an unaware passerby can miss from as close as 10 feet away. (I'll get you actual photos)
• An open secret cache of the largest collection of relics outside of the Vatican. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Anth ... ylvania%29
• Multiple research universities and hospitals make the area a hub of medical and software research for androids or crazy surgeons
• The missing bomber mystery: http://pittsburgh.about.com/od/transpor ... bomber.htm
• So much of the city is abandoned, post-industrial brownfields, or lost to 60s urban renewal projects, that we don't just give directions by, but actually define our cultural identity with Things that aren't there anymore. If that's not a sign of chunks falling into Limbo, then I don't know what is.
• For vampires and the like, Pittsburgh offers effectively the same safety from the sun as Seattle http://www.worldfactsandfigures.com/wea ... y_desc.php

[DragonChild]

Not to mention within the same state as the real Silent Hill: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia,_Pennsylvania

[Orion]

This is a brainstorm post, not a feature request, but:

It seems clear that people are going to want new selectable powers in this book. We've already put in requests for web powers in song of swarms. So what are the ways you could introduce new abilities to the game? As far as I can tell, you have three options:

First, you could add new abilities to existing sorcery. That's the most conservative and probably the most reasonable option. The only thing with this is that if you do new powers for one, you need new powers for them all. So what do we have for possibilities?

--Song of Swarms: Web- and egg-based powers. Done.
--Descent of Entropy: There's no discipline yet that uses literal ashes in magic, so you could put in a fog effect, or an entangle, or a disable or whatever. Or something related to the passive, finding weakpoints, foreseeing disasters, etc.
--Progress of Glass: I'm not sure. There's lots of options--creating portals, trapping people in glass prisons, reflecting hostile magic--but most of them seem too good or too boring.
--Walk of Flame: A thermite power for directed property damage
--Names of the Blasphemies: Dunno.

Second, you could add one or more entirely new disciplines. This obviously has a lot of downsides--you ideally need to introduce new monsters who have the discipline natively, for instance. If you wanted you do this, you'd start by listing visual motifs and themes from Limbo that haven't been used yet. I see:

Visual: Metal, Ashes, Smoke, Gold, Radiation, Royalty
Themes: Guilt, Pain, Curses, Boundaries, War, Error, Weapons

Then it's just mix and match. So for example you pick ash and guilt to get Taste of Ashes, a discipline revolving around punishment, torture, confession, self-hatred, choking smog, blinding dust, and so on.

Finally, you could break away from the existing power structure entirely. You almost certainly don't want to do this, but it could work if you want to put in a *very large* amount of new crunch or change the way people look at magic. I'm only including this because I want to show off my idea:

Infernal Devotions: Infernal Devotions are Advanced powers that represent the integration of learned Sorcery into your body and soul. Each one is a unique ability requiring one basic universal power and one basic sorcery. For example, Patroklos is an Icarid with Body Colony and Clinging. This qualifies him to learn Webslinging, a [Clout/Swarms]Devotion.

You could do anywhere from 35 Infernal Devotions (every combination: too many!) to 5 (one for each sorcery) or 7 (one for each infernal sorcery, including 2 new sorceries, thus also including one for each universal discipline) You could tie this in conceptually with the idea of being corrupted by Limbo and Set, or use them for the Beast to emphasize that he's more monstrous than other monsters.

[Ancient History]

I might be interested in a bit on Hellblazers - those mortals (or otherwise) whose primary occupation is dealing with the forces of hell, but who are otherwise not affiliated with "the opposition" so to speak. So you can have Giovanni-like necromancer clans, freelance former demons on the edges of the Goblin Market, exorcists that sleep with the enemy, etc.

Good point. A thing on demon hunters seems definitely doable. Do you think that having them show up as a sixth piece in the Infernal Cults chapter would be enough, or should there be more than that?

A piece is sufficient. I mean, we're talking specialist stuff here, probably. Powers geared to take down specific antagonists.

[Prak]

Visual: Metal, Ashes, Smoke, Gold, Radiation, Royalty
Themes: Guilt, Pain, Curses, Boundaries, War, Error, Weapons

Then it's just mix and match. So for example you pick ash and guilt to get Taste of Ashes, a discipline revolving around punishment, torture, confession, self-hatred, choking smog, blinding dust, and so on.

Radiation and Curses=Flames of Madness, all about inflicting wasting diseases and blasting the landscape with fire that spreads such.

[Orion]

Actually if we do two new disciplines, I vote for March of Scrap, a Metal & Weapons themed discipline whose powers all revolve around making the world and everything in it just a little more dangerous. Something to make improvised weapons, something to AoE with debris, maybe some kind of wall summon, a curse of vulnerability, etc.

[Lokathor]

It's probably best to introduce a few new powers into existing disciplines more associated with Limbo, then each of the other two books would also add powers with their associated disciplines. As well as devotions.

A thing might be the possibility of some Devotions that require both a Universal Discipline and Sorcerous Discipline instead of two kinds of Universal Discipline.

Also, I vote Minotaur to be the Infernal Beast.

[CatharzGodfoot]

The problem with Universal + Sorcerous is you end up with 35 Infernal Devotions, which is just not manageable.

Sorcerous + Sorcerous would yield 4+3+2+1 = 10 Infernal Devotions, which is at least manageable for a supplement.


What I'd be more interested in are extremely specialized Sorcerous Devotions that require two types of magic and act as both. The most straightforward way to do it would be a round that runs counter to the nature of dispelling. So The Dark Reflection would have Infernal+Astral Sorcerous Devotions, which goes along with Ifrit having Trail of Tears and Progress of Glass. Web slinging and face huggers would fit right in.

Then The Dreamlands would have Astral+Orphic Devotions, and Gloom would have Orphic+Infernal Devotions.

[Orion]

Sorcery/Sorcery devotions don't excite me at all. A sorcery/sorcery devotion is conceptually just another sorcery, it doesn't feel or behave any differently. And there's no new design space added, because any sorcerous devotion you can think of could surely have been crammed in as an additional power for one of its base disciplines.

Universal/Sorcery is a lot more interesting. The flavor text is potentially cool, since it's mixing your self with your magic. If they're dispellable, you have put in universal-style effects which can be countered. If they're not, you can put in overtly fantastic powers that can't be (important for getting some monsters to feel monstrous). Agreed that 35 is too many, but you have options. You can expand to seven infernal disciplines, then do devotions in multiples of seven. You can keep 5 infernal disciplines, do devotions in any multiple of 5; this loses parity with the universals, but the universals are already sort of "unbalanced."

[Lokathor]

You only need to write 35 devotions if you want to have exactly one devotion for every possible combination. Which is, yeah, probably not a good idea.

More likely, about 6 to 10 new devotions would be made along with the other new powers being written, including some being new expressions of existing discipline combinations. Remember that the core book cautions against new powers and disciplines exactly because we can get carried away with writing too many of them.

[Username17]

Serious question: do people want a "XXX by Night" chapter in the dimension books? I was basically planning on not doing that, since every bit of discussion of a mundane city's mundane infrastructure is time spent not discussing demon horses or rains of glass.

I don't think that skipping Centralia is warranted or reasonable, but it'll be there as a sample Village of the Damned in the Shallow Reflection chapter, rather than having a full city writeup. The human population is 12, there's no call to discuss the city powerbases.

-Username17

[RobbyPants]

Slightly off topic, but where can you buy the PDF?

http://store.payloadz.com/details/94654 ... ndown.html

Thank you.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Serious question: do people want a "XXX by Night" chapter in the dimension books? I was basically planning on not doing that, since every bit of discussion of a mundane city's mundane infrastructure is time spent not discussing demon horses or rains of glass.

I don't think that skipping Centralia is warranted or reasonable, but it'll be there as a sample Village of the Damned in the Shallow Reflection chapter, rather than having a full city writeup. The human population is 12, there's no call to discuss the city powerbases.

-Username17

I'm all for TDR covering only locations in TDR, although you're already doing a bit on Sunnydale.

Wouldn't Centralia be a bleed?

[Josh_Kablack]

Serious question: do people want a "XXX by Night" chapter in the dimension books? I was basically planning on not doing that, since every bit of discussion of a mundane city's mundane infrastructure is time spent not discussing demon horses or rains of glass.

Serious (even if it might not seem like it) answer: you're the one writing these.

Despite the myriad of relevant inspiration, I have proved incapable of producing any sort of aWoD PGH writeup in the past 2 years and do not expect that to change in the near future.

But even without specific city writeups, you could do things like discusss how a glass company deciding to build a 40-story tall mirror with 5 additional focusing points as one of the King of 3 Shadows's attempts to cross back to earth in the writeup for the K3S.

I don't think that skipping Centralia is warranted or reasonable, but it'll be there as a sample Village of the Damned in the Shallow Reflection chapter, rather than having a full city writeup. The human population is 12, there's no call to discuss the city powerbases.

-Username17

Centralia should probably be presented as a timeline, not as a setting. While it is functionally abandoned for the past decade or so, it inhabited by hundreds for decades after the mine fire started. Anyone wanting to run a chronicle in points between 1955 and 2000, or anyone wanting to model a similar slow-burn fall into TDR somewhere else would be interested in the progress of the fire and collapse of the town over time.

Maybe throw in some conspiracy stuff about the state governments use eminent domain as a claim for mineral rights being a smokescreen for the real fight over the actual portal.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Serious question: do people want a "XXX by Night" chapter in the dimension books? I was basically planning on not doing that, since every bit of discussion of a mundane city's mundane infrastructure is time spent not discussing demon horses or rains of glass.

I think it would be very useful to have a 'How to do XXX by Night' in/as a later book. Basically a step-by-step with examples through the process of After Nightfall-ing a campaign location. Stuff like a list of major questions that a location needs answers to, like 'why do people come/stay here?', 'what is the supernatural power structure?' and 'what makes this place unique and interesting?' Also, how to generate cool fiddly details to make a place come alive.

I'd buy that.