Wish Economy

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:32 am

There's also the fact that advertising that you have a wish economy item for sale for gold is pretty much broadcasting that you don't have anywhere near the ability to stop anyone who is actually in the wish economy from just coming and taking it from you.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:20 pm

DSMatticus wrote:
jadagul wrote:And you can't suborn one of his toes to help you steal the thing from him.
This should be a spell.

this makes me happy.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:57 pm

wotmaniac wrote:except that during the collapse of the Soviet Union, there wasn't a field-grade officer in the ranks that wasn't selling off his unit's stuff to random 3rd-world warlords .... and since everything was in such chaos, noone ever really noticed.

and the list goes on.

This is the equivalent of a dragon that died of natural causes in its lair; people come in and take stuff.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:54 pm

wotmaniac wrote:
hogarth wrote:So? Billions of dollars is not unrealistic in real life.
FWIW, the advent of fiat currency has caused quite a paradigm shift in how economies work. (considering the context in which your statement was made, it's an important distinction to make).

It's not immediately obvious but once you reach the wish economy gold effectively becomes fiat currency because any "wish" can simply create more gold, just like any bank can create more bank notes.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:29 am

Tzor wrote:It's not immediately obvious but once you reach the wish economy gold effectively becomes fiat currency because any "wish" can simply create more gold, just like any bank can create more bank notes.

Did you not read what I said? At all? Because I corrected you, and you keep being wrong.

Also, that is definitionally untrue. Fiat means having no intrinsic value, the value of the item is from some arbitrary agreement. Gold has an intrinsic value, and its intrinsic value is used to buy things. This is the very concept of fiat vs gold. When you wish for gold, all you do is lower the value of that gold by adding more in circulation. By way of example, gold is not fiat in the real world just because people are mining it; that adds gold to circulation, but it doesn't change gold to a fiat economy.

What both of these situations actually do is create a rate at which gold depreciates in value based on its rate of acquisition/creation. In the case of D&D-land, this is highly volatile (one guy wishes up a bunch of gold, splurges it). In the case of real-world-land, this is less volatile (digging up gold takes time, the rate is relatively constant, and stays relatively flat).

Now I fully addressed why the ability of high-level characters to wish into existence more gold is largely irrelevant. Your comparison of high-level characters to banks is wrong. Banks have an incentive to create money and distribute; high-level characters have absolutely no incentive to do so. If a high-level character wants a feast fit for kings, he just wishes for a feast fit for kings. He does not wish for gold, then wish for a servant, then send that servant to go buy him a feast fit for kings.

The effect high-level characters have on the gold economy is super low. Really, really super low. Unless they deliberately decide to fuck up the gold economy, nothing happens (and some of them probably have, but they eventually stopped and then gold-levelled off at a lower price; compare price of gold in D&D to our price of gold, and it's easy to imagine that the total volume of gold in circulation is a massive multiple of our's).

RadiantPhoenix wrote:This is the equivalent of a dragon that died of natural causes in its lair; people come in and take stuff.

I think a book actually describes this process; they eat their hoard then fly to some place super-isolated to die, basically a giant 'fuck you' to adventurers. Also, dragons live thousands of years and have a relatively small population (presumably), so this is an incredibly rare event.

People in the gold economy can get their hands on wish economy items. That's not a problem. People with wish economy items can sell them for gold, but that is incredibly rare and you're never going to hear about it unless you are super-lucky. And there are people who actually want wish economy items and have wish economy power, so when they hear about some chump stupidly trying to sell a wish item for gold, they will realize he isn't playing the game right and that he is an easy target due to his ignorance and inability.

If you have the power to survive selling a wish economy item for gold, you don't need the gold it would give you because you are in the wish economy yourself.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:47 am

Fiat means "from nothing". Old currency was derived from the relatively stable trade value of certain precious metals. Fiat currencies aren't derived from anything, they're just an arbitrary number (developed in order to force economies to serve the money printers rather than the productive earners without taxing everyone to death).

Lots of gold coins appearing from nowhere isn't like a fiat currency, it's like debasing your precious metal coins. Inflation, not hyper-inflation (especially as few people hold gold coins as value, they hold fertile land).

The hyper is when you keep adding 0's to the end of your money on a regular basis, and you still can't buy anything with it. Massive extra inflation because no one trusts your pledge of worth because of all the inflation.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:42 pm

DSMatticus wrote:If you have the power to survive selling a wish economy item for gold, you don't need the gold it would give you because you are in the wish economy yourself.

this is actually the inverse of my last point ... the fact that the wish economy can be entered by simply throwing gold at it definitionally makes it self-defeating.

jadagul · Post by **jadagul** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:41 pm

wotmaniac wrote:
DSMatticus wrote:If you have the power to survive selling a wish economy item for gold, you don't need the gold it would give you because you are in the wish economy yourself.
this is actually the inverse of my last point ... the fact that the wish economy can be entered by simply throwing gold at it definitionally makes it self-defeating.

But you can't enter the wish economy by throwing gold at it. What makes you think you can?

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:00 pm

jadagul wrote:
wotmaniac wrote:
DSMatticus wrote:If you have the power to survive selling a wish economy item for gold, you don't need the gold it would give you because you are in the wish economy yourself.
this is actually the inverse of my last point ... the fact that the wish economy can be entered by simply throwing gold at it definitionally makes it self-defeating.
But you can't enter the wish economy by throwing gold at it. What makes you think you can?

except that it was just established over the last 2 pages that, rationally speaking, you indeed can.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:34 pm

wotmaniac wrote:except that it was just established over the last 2 pages that, rationally speaking, you indeed can.

No, you just claimed that for vague unspecified reasons you totally could, even though that is objectively false, and then we ignored you, because you didn't give us any reason to believe you.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:22 pm

Someone give a specific example of using gold to get a Wish Economy item. No dumb-ass analogies.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:58 pm

wotmaniac wrote:it was just established over the last 2 pages that, rationally speaking, you indeed can.

Are you talking about the "powerful entity dies and his loot is up for grabs" and "low level entity happens to receive a Wish economy item" scenarios that were discussed? Cause they are extremely rare events, not bona fide ways to obtain items. I also pointed out how the most likely endgame of both situations is "Archmage/Demon teleports in, takes item with a stern lecture about power in the wrong hands/ Vicious slaughter of everyone within a 5 mile radius and leaves".

There will always be some bleed around the edges of each economy, but those are rare one-off occurences that happen when the GM says so, usually to facilitate some kind of adventure.

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:26 am

I think they're talking about my wish for gems, kill shit, soul bind, senario. But you still have to kill really high level shit for that, and soul trapping magic is really high level as well.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:42 am

well, if this isn't a case of there being a hole in the bucket, ....

The simplest, easiest way to enter involves purchasing a 16k+ gp gem and an 8th-level spell. Mix and serve. Done -- you now have yourself a piece of planar currency that cost you a measly 19k+ gp -- and yes, a little inventiveness will enable fairly low level characters to get away with this. Rinse and repeat as needed. After that, it's a simple matter of resorting to the barter system to get the specific "denominations" of planar currency that you might happen to need at a given time. This isn't my own idle speculation -- this is an admission by K himself.
And since one of the basic design goals of this Wish Economy is to be able to heap mountains of gold upon characters, characters should be expected to reach the necessary wealth levels to pull this off at trivially-early levels. Furthermore, one of the premises that Wish Economy claims is that you will be able to throw all this gold at your characters without it necessarily fueling an arms race ..... except that since we're now blowing the top off of the WBL, and since we really can enter Wish Economy by throwing gold at it, the system collapses under its own lack of structural integrity.
This isn't really "bleed around the edges", it's more like "hemorrhaging from the core". Nor would it make sense for this to be a "rare one-off" -- it's gonna be a "go-to" method for the race to see how quick the Wish Economy can be entered.

And the only excuse that can be offered up at the moment for why these (supposedly) anomalous events can't/won't happen is some deus ex machina b.s. or some other non sequitur event of DM fiat. Really? But I'm the one being accused of Oberoni? Really?

I'm not worried about the top->down implications -- it's the bottom->up implications that fucks this all up.

What other dots have I failed to connect?

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:54 am

Where are you getting the 8th level spell from? I know what the spell is, but how are you getting access to it?

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:13 am

Leress wrote:Where are you getting the 8th level spell from? I know what the spell is, but how are you getting access to it?

you buy it as a scroll? better still, the spell description itself specifically and explicitly describes how to pull it off as a trap that offers no save against it.

it's like candy from babies (or, getting them to take it, as the case may be).
Cha-ching -- the shit might as well be falling out of the sky.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:22 am

wotmaniac wrote:
you buy it as a scroll?

Anyone that can make the scroll wouldn't want the money since they are at least level 15 and in the wish economy. It wouldn't be worth their time.

better still, the spell description itself specifically and explicitly describes how to pull it off as a trap that offers no save against it.

it's like candy from babies (or, getting them to take it, as the case may be).
Cha-ching -- the shit might as well be falling out of the sky.

Which means you would have to cast it, so you are level 15+ and you are already in the wish economy.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:06 am

One of the unplugged holes of the Wish economy is scrolls being so cheap they always fall under the 15,000gp limit. Realistically speaking any scroll of a level 5+ spell should be a wish economy item, as the creator will be 9th level and either have entered the Wish economy or obtained almost all the gold based shit they want.

But yeah, that's one of the first things I house ruled into my games.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:33 pm

Leress wrote:Anyone that can make the scroll wouldn't want the money since they are at least level 15 and in the wish economy. It wouldn't be worth their time.

Then screw the scroll -- so you supply the gem (which is mundane, and thus part of the Gold Economy), and toss him whatever he needs for a measly 6 seconds of work -- it's 6 seconds, surely there could be something that you can give or do for him that would be worth his 6 seconds (especially once you build a good rapport).

Which means you would have to cast it, so you are level 15+ and you are already in the wish economy.

well, no we don't need to cast it; but even if we did, it's just a caster level or UMD check, which should be reliably succeeding by level 6.

Next?

But yeah -- my whole point has been that there are so many holes in this thing, that I'm really having trouble seeing how it is supposed to actually work.
Don't get me wrong -- I really like the base concept; but in its current form, it's just that -- a concept. And I simply don't care enough to have to do all the work needed to finish fleshing it out.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:23 pm

wotmaniac wrote:Then screw the scroll -- so you supply the gem (which is mundane, and thus part of the Gold Economy), and toss him whatever he needs for a measly 6 seconds of work -- it's 6 seconds, surely there could be something that you can give or do for him that would be worth his 6 seconds (especially once you build a good rapport).

Which is the exact same thing as the earlier example of a mud-farmer finding an artifact on the ground.

The entire wish-economy thing was designed as a reasonably thought out alternative to the core economy, which is horrifically worse. Yes, there exists the outwardly admitted flaw that scrolls still need to be reworked because of how it reestablishes the gold=power paradigm; suggestions range from removing scrolls altogether, changing their pricing structure/categories, making them at-will items under the Minor/Medium/Major setup, etc. Does the Oberoni Fallacy apply to incomplete house-rules?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:14 pm

wotmaniac wrote:
Leress wrote:Anyone that can make the scroll wouldn't want the money since they are at least level 15 and in the wish economy. It wouldn't be worth their time.
Then screw the scroll -- so you supply the gem (which is mundane, and thus part of the Gold Economy), and toss him whatever he needs for a measly 6 seconds of work -- it's 6 seconds, surely there could be something that you can give or do for him that would be worth his 6 seconds (especially once you build a good rapport).

It only takes 6 seconds to cast Wish too. If your argument is that people who aren't in the wish economy can get into the wish economy by convincing someone in the Wish economy who is twice their level at least to give them Wish economy level materials, then your argument is stupid.

K · Post by K » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:53 pm

Red_Rob wrote:One of the unplugged holes of the Wish economy is scrolls being so cheap they always fall under the 15,000gp limit. Realistically speaking any scroll of a level 5+ spell should be a wish economy item, as the creator will be 9th level and either have entered the Wish economy or obtained almost all the gold based shit they want.

But yeah, that's one of the first things I house ruled into my games.

The hole does exist.

The balancing point is that you have to kill a powerful monster to get a soul gem big enough for a Wish economy item. That's one thing that people are handwaving that really can't be handwaved.

Again, this misunderstanding comes from people not understanding the soul gem concept. Again.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:04 pm

K wrote:
Red_Rob wrote:One of the unplugged holes of the Wish economy is scrolls being so cheap they always fall under the 15,000gp limit. Realistically speaking any scroll of a level 5+ spell should be a wish economy item, as the creator will be 9th level and either have entered the Wish economy or obtained almost all the gold based shit they want.

But yeah, that's one of the first things I house ruled into my games.
The hole does exist.

The balancing point is that you have to kill a powerful monster to get a soul gem big enough for a Wish economy item. That's one thing that people are handwaving that really can't be handwaved.

Again, this misunderstanding comes from people not understanding the soul gem concept. Again.

The scroll hole does still exist in the sense that technically, you can buy a scroll of gate, which you then use to Wish... everything. It's not a hole with the unwish side of the wish economy, but it is a slight problem that level 4 characters already have infinite wishable gold and materials.

Wishing for a Scroll of Gate is actually wishing for more wishes, in a way that is allowed, and I hate it.

K · Post by K » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:31 pm

Gate was going to be rewritten along with the planar binding line of spells. Sadly, the things that aren't broken about them are incomprehensible.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:37 pm

Why not make Gate, a multi hour process that requires exponential power to succeed in. You want to gate in Imp the Imp, that takes a couple of hours, and some spell slots. You want to gate in A Greater Demon Lord, that takes a whole lot of hours, and 1000 levels of life force energy.

Have it summon, but offer no protection, no control, and make the summoned being able to do terrible things to the summoner, unless the creature is bound in a warding circle.