After Sundown

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sat May 28, 2011 6:12 pm

Another typo.

And yes, if a Makhzen Prince has to do a lot of work to suppress some Vow of Silence Breech, they are well within their rights to have the perpetrator killed.

Should be 'Breach'

In fact, it maybe should be 'breach'. Not capitalized

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat May 28, 2011 6:18 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Looks good. The Troglodyte illustration is especially evocative. Seeding as we speak.

That picture is literally me in monster face. I went for the subtle stuff, like pulling my cheeks down and in rather than prosthetic teeth and such. I'm glad you liked it.

My only complaint is with typesetting: the 'sidebars' can be confusing when they exceed the width of the column and edge into unrelated text. Pages 100 & 101 are examples.

Yeah, I'm split on the effect myself. On the one hand, I really find static text columns to get dull after a while. On the other hand, it can get a bt confusing. If I could get the table styles to work in InDesign instead of doing each one by hand and eyeball, and I did it over again, I'd probably try to have two box text widths - text that fits in a column and text that fits across both columns. Ah well.

Oh, and I just noticed that Bagheera get clinging and Dream Vision can be used while dead.

Also: Golems now get Indominability instead of Devastation. I think that was Orion's suggestion.

And I went through and modified the damage numbers so that zero unsoaked damage could go back to filling in zero boxes of damage.

-Username17

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sat May 28, 2011 6:25 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: Limbo is "on fire". So a lot of it looks like this:
-Username17

Page 8 wrote:everywhere in the dark reflection, there are always smoke and ashes. Yet it is exceedingly rare to encounter men still living nor open flames still burning.

EDIT: Quicken Sight should probably add its dice to stunts during chase scenes.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sat May 28, 2011 7:04 pm

Content Notes
It's not clear if Bleeds juxtapose earth and the shallows, earth and the deeps, or either depending on the bleed. Also, when something on earth is burned, the Limbo copy goes to the deeps, right? What happens in the Shallows--the Shallows copy is also destroyed?

Can you duplicate all your stuff by going to the Shallows and bringing back that version? If the objects can be moved independently, how did they synchronize in the first place? In general, everything about the Shallows made more sense when PCs were expected to be in Earth and Shallows at the same time rather than one or the other.

Page 14 says "Zombie spawn can create new zombie spawn just by killing extras." This is not currently true, but maybe it should be?

"If a character disguises themselves as former Australian Prime Minister John Howard, a group of American or Asian targets will probably get no test to pierce the impersonation, because they have no idea what kind of mannerisms or opinions the real John Howard has"

I'm pretty sure a random Australian dude could still fail to convince me that he is John Howard. Since I don't know what John Howard looks like, even Veil wouldn't help.

Continuous schedule do not gain power points while actually dead (essentially they do not get any more scenes), meaning that it may require the use of some Vampire Blood or something to revive a set of Troll bones.

I don't like this. It makes Trolls way too stoppable. You should have to stake them with Iron to stop them from getting up spontaneously.

Text Notes

Twilight joke is on p.4 and again on p.5. Do we hate Twilight that much?

12 wrote:You actually can “save” Alice or Sheila if they get transformed into the living dead.

Remove scare quotes.

13 wrote:The Animate story is classically one that exists to explore the tragedy of dysfunctional human relationships

Awkward. Suggest "The classic Animate story explores the tragedy of dysfunctional relationships."

13 wrote:Devil Magic

That word isn't used in Sundown. There's also no real reason to capitalize death, devil, or nightmare.

13 wrote:Vritra

I feel compelled to mention that I'm pretty sure Vritra is male. I understand if you just want to leave it.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sat May 28, 2011 8:08 pm

Review of Playable Monster Packages
Lycans

Werewolf: I question the relevance of Beckoning. We put it in originally because WoD werewolves are naturey and because Animism was a carryover discipline that needed to be represented. But wolf packs are increasingly rarely represented in werewolf stories (I don't think they're in a thing in the Urban Fantasy boom) and most urban PC Werewolves will have flavor motivation or game application for a pack of wolves.

Nezumi: Check Plus.

Bagheera: before Clinging came in, they were the indisputably best combat chassis. Now they're on par with the other combat creatures. Good job.

Vamps

Referred to as "emotionally attenuated" in the intro, no discussion of their emotions in the detailed writeups. Daeva in particular are passionate, right? Like Buffy vamps? Also now that most vamps don't have indomitability, do they still have no heartbeat and no bleeding?

Nosferatu: The thing about them being info brokers: WoD holdover?
Strigoi: Good
Daeva: Good

Animates

I have a lot of trouble with these power sets. If Golems are designed as laborers, I think they really do need Devastation back. It doesn't make sense that they are worse at lifting and moving things than a Frankenstein or an android. You could cut Touch of Shadow, or cut Indomitability and add a sentence about how their words are written on their bodies and damage to the words pains them. Or cut Devastation from all androids.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sun May 29, 2011 3:36 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:Looks good. The Troglodyte illustration is especially evocative. Seeding as we speak.

That picture is literally me in monster face. I went for the subtle stuff, like pulling my cheeks down and in rather than prosthetic teeth and such. I'm glad you liked it.

Yeah, keeping one's mouth shut can work better than prosthetic teeth. Costume contacts are a nice touch, though simply wearing dark glasses works with less hassle.

The stupid Eloi don't suspect a thing.

Now for some editorial issues:

[*]Invulnerability should remove 'not necessarily stone' references. Here's a possible replacement:

The character can transform their skin into something very hard. Some creatures turn into metal or magically hardened wood. Some creatures get skin that is all craggy or jointed (like The Thing or Colossus from Marvel Comics). Others turn into statues of living stone. Invulnerability is a Protean Discipline. Activating it costs a Simple Action and two power points, and lasts for a scene or until dismissed. While active, the character gains 4 bonus dice when Soaking physical damage and their Strength increases by 2. Electricity does not harm a character having invoked Invulnerability, either because they are too conductive (if metallic) or too insulated (if wood or stone).

[*]"b" in "being "The City"" needs capitalization (p 196).
[*]"Physical Skills" bookmark above "Skills" bookmark.
[*]"Symphony" and "of Silence" are separate bookmarks.

I also think there should be some reason to take 'stone' Invulnerability when you could take wood, iron, or silver. Something to consider for the next edition.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon May 30, 2011 8:39 pm

Ganbare Gincun wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:So it turns out that getting an ISBN costs $125. That's bad. On the other hand, I can apparently put it on Amazon for sale without one. That's good. But Amazon has price minimums based on how large the file is, so the price for the pdf may be $1.99 or even $2.99. That's bad.

-Username17
Do an online fundraiser to buy an ISBN number and add the names of the people that donated to the credits for the book?

Kickstarter.com. This seems like an appropriate use for the site. Though you already got the ISBNs, so... for publishing costs, maybe?

I'm downloading as I type this, and I'll try to keep it up for a good long time once it's done downloading.

Still need artwork?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon May 30, 2011 9:25 pm

Applejack wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:
Twilight Sparkle wrote:I am downright amazed that Frank was able to copy a few different game mechanics, slap them together with no effort, misquote pop culture references, and then get praise for it.

What's your secret to gaining sycophants, Frank?
It's not sycophantism, it's appreciation of an ability to create a decent game system from bits and pieces.

Though, clearly you're just here to troll, so kindly suck a barrel of cocks.
Except it's not a decent game at all and it's a mismatching barrel of stolen material with not even the barest attempt made at making things work. And yet you're fawning over it like it's the second coming of Christ.

I'd tell you to suck a barrel of cocks in return but you seem to be perfectly content with Frank's so I won't interrupt your fun!

Ok, where the fuck are you people coming from this time? What system are you fanboys of? Are you more Paizoan pathfinder fanboys? WotC 4e fanboys? Or have we finally attracted the attention of self-flagellating, christ fearing WoD fanboys?

The setting works for what WoD really wants to be, the system is, yes, taken from shadowrun, but there are only a handful of resolution mechanics that work, and only slightly more in general, so saying he stole one is inane.

Also you're just coming in and insulting, which is trolling. If you'd like to actually discuss things, then bring up actual points for debate. If you just want to insult all of us, then have fun shouting at the wall as we all just put you on ignore, with the exception of our own resident trolls.

ah, I see from your meagre post history that you, Applejack, may be a 4e fanboy. No, I haven't read your bullshit, but anyone who defends 4e around here when they've just shown up, and then otherwise insults us, generally turns out to be.

koz · Post by **koz** » Mon May 30, 2011 9:35 pm

Ah, my ignorelist is getting a workout.

Post by **fbmf** » Mon May 30, 2011 9:53 pm

According to his IP history, Applejack and Twilight are thinly disguised Plebe clones. He's butt hurt because he got banned and his immaturity and lack of real life give him the motive and means to sit around all day registering new email accounts to use to register here.

Game On,
fbmf

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue May 31, 2011 4:37 am

Orion wrote:
Continuous schedule do not gain power points while actually dead (essentially they do not get any more scenes), meaning that it may require the use of some Vampire Blood or something to revive a set of Troll bones.
I don't like this. It makes Trolls way too stoppable. You should have to stake them with Iron to stop them from getting up spontaneously.

You do have to stake them with Iron to keep them from getting up spontaneously.

They don't gain any new power points, but they still have their current power points, which can be used with Restoration.

It's only if they've been dead for a month that they can't get back up.

All it means is that If you kill Dracula, and stab him in the heart with a steak, and 30 years later, someone pulls out the wood, he doesn't instantly come back to life, they also have to get some vampire blood on his body.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Tue May 31, 2011 4:43 am

When a character dies, all of their powers that cost Power Points to activate or which otherwise last for a scene end. In addition, anything they have going that could be dispelled is dispelled with their death. A character's Power pool is also emptied at the moment the character actually dies.

They do not, in fact, have all their current power points.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue May 31, 2011 7:39 pm

Regarding the raising of the dead:

1) What is a normal human statline? For a high school football player? For a Mover? For an office worker?

2) What about a Luminaries? Should we use origion story rules for Luminaries that might be revenanted?

3) If/can a Kaibit(Or Werewolf, or Trog, or anyone really, but I assume not Vamps) be turned into a Revenant, and what happens when they do? Do they carry over powers? Potency? Ect.

4) How common are Luminaries exactly? Could a Kaibit plausibly just go around using aura detection to kidnap and create some revenants?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue May 31, 2011 7:57 pm

Quantumboost wrote:
When a character dies, all of their powers that cost Power Points to activate or which otherwise last for a scene end. In addition, anything they have going that could be dispelled is dispelled with their death. A character's Power pool is also emptied at the moment the character actually dies.
They do not, in fact, have all their current power points.

Yes... technically, this makes restoration 100% useless for everyone. That's a problem, it needs to be reworded to be able to be applied right before death the first time.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:20 pm

Kaelik wrote:
Quantumboost wrote:
When a character dies, all of their powers that cost Power Points to activate or which otherwise last for a scene end. In addition, anything they have going that could be dispelled is dispelled with their death. A character's Power pool is also emptied at the moment the character actually dies.
They do not, in fact, have all their current power points.
Yes... technically, this makes restoration 100% useless for everyone. That's a problem, it needs to be reworded to be able to be applied right before death the first time.

Lunar power source characters regain their power points even when dead. Vampires can use restoration on other characters or when fed blood. For others it's unfortunately useless.

Kaelik wrote:Regarding the raising of the dead:

1) What is a normal human statline? For a high school football player? For a Mover? For an office worker?

I think average is supposed to be 3. 6 is the highest that a normal human can get. So a high school football player is probably going to have something like 4, 3, 3, 3, 3, 2 for attributes and Athletics (football) 3.

A professional will probably have a Strength of 5 and Agility 4, or (steroid-abusing) Strength 6 and Agility 3. And an Athletics (football) of 5.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:31 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
Quantumboost wrote:
They do not, in fact, have all their current power points.
Yes... technically, this makes restoration 100% useless for everyone. That's a problem, it needs to be reworded to be able to be applied right before death the first time.
Lunar power source characters regain their power points even when dead. Vampires can use restoration on other characters or when fed blood. Otherwise it's unfortunately useless.

Yeah, and of course, Vampires with Gift of health can revive people with Restoration, but I feel like for an advanced power, it should be usable by people who get it, IE strogi/trolls, without relying on someone else doing something specific to them that they have no control over when they are dead.

It also seems like losing power points on death is not intentional, or wasn't when restoration was written, because in Restoration it says:

"If the character stays dead for a whole month, any remaining power points they have are lost and they do not gain power points with their normal power schedule (even if that schedule is continuous)."

Which seems kinda silly, that it would specify you lose power points when you already lost them.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:41 pm

Again, it works fine for trolls because they regain all power points after their death scene is over. But I do agree that automatically loosing all power points at death has unfortunate consequences.

Even if power points are retained upon death, Restoration is still much more beneficial to characters with Lunar power sources. I'd be happy with a situation in which dead Fallen are locked in iron boxes filled with water or vampires are staked through the heart to drain their last power points.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:54 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Again, it works fine for trolls because they regain all power points after their death scene is over. But I do agree that automatically loosing all power points at death has unfortunate consequences.

No, it totally doesn't work at all for Trolls, because they never get a new scene, so they never get more power points.

"Creatures on a Continuous schedule do not gain power points while actually dead (essentially they do not get any more scenes)"

So it's weird that a Strogi who have it naturally, and trolls who have it naturally, can never use it, but Werewolves can totally raise from the dead if they buy Restoration, unlike all those other loser supernaturals that get it but can't even use it.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue May 31, 2011 9:17 pm

Kaelik wrote:No, it totally doesn't work at all for Trolls, because they never get a new scene, so they never get more power points.

"Creatures on a Continuous schedule do not gain power points while actually dead (essentially they do not get any more scenes)"

I didn't read that part. Wow.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Tue May 31, 2011 9:48 pm

The "Death" section and the Continuous-schedule monsters not regaining Power after death sentence are both new in After Sundown as compared to aWoD. Restoration is unmodified, or at least the part about continuous schedules is. I suspect those two parts were added without considering this particular rules interaction.

Possible fixes:

Restoration is able to be triggered just before before power points are lost due to death, so you revive exactly four hours after the actual time of death. Outside assistance lets you revive later if necessary.
Restoration lets you bypass the "lose power points on death" rule, either with just enough to restore yourself or in full. Same as previous option except you can wait a while after initial death.
Leave mechanics as-is, excise the part of Restoration that says "(even if that schedule is continuous)". Trolls and Vampires, and any non-Lunar-schedule monster that chooses it, always need outside assistance to revive. This means that Restoration is basically a self-only version of Resurrection that someone else uses on you.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » Tue May 31, 2011 10:50 pm

Could somebody post a rapidshare link on /tg/ for me? I can't torrent (don't ask). Otherwise I can wait until I can buy it. Thanks either way and great job y'all.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue May 31, 2011 11:20 pm

buy: http://store.payloadz.com/details/94654 ... ndown.html

torrent: http://thepiratebay.com/torrent/6427965

And the solution is that characters don't loose power points at death. If they must lose power points, it can be at resurrection.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue May 31, 2011 11:46 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:buy: http://store.payloadz.com/details/94654 ... ndown.html

torrent: http://thepiratebay.com/torrent/6427965

And the solution is that characters don't loose power points at death. If they must lose power points, it can be at resurrection.

I thought part of the point was to prevent people from sucking power points out of corpses or whatever, so I can understand dead people not having points.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue May 31, 2011 11:51 pm

Kaelik wrote:I thought part of the point was to prevent people from sucking power points out of corpses or whatever, so I can understand dead people not having points.

Troglodytes can already suck power points out of corpses. The other way to do it would be Theft of Vitae iff you can still meaningfully harm a dead corpse.

That doesn't worry me too much.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:22 am

I don't really have a problem with people having to electrocute Frankenstein's monster to bring him back from the dead. Do other people have a huge problem with this?

-Username17