VaeVictis, a Dom3 MP

[Zinegata]

A large part of late-game acrimony comes from having to work for 50+ turns, and then getting pissed off at other players doing something to ruin all of that - especially if that "something" doesn't actually win the game for those other players.

You mean like declaring neutrality and making NAPs with all the major players when the end game wars had already begun?

-Username17

I was talking in general terms. This is why Pangea quit over Jotunheim's bullshit diplo and this blatant attempt to change the rules of the game midstream. 19 VP to win. That's the win condition. It's been that since the first fucking post.

In my case, I'm quitting this game because I've been bored of it. And it's also now completely pointless and I have no interest in continuing to watch a farce.

Marignon will win. It's academic. Stop pretending otherwise; and stop attaching stupid conditions like recognizing Jotunheim as the second placer when they have less VP than either R'yleh or Pangea. That's just bullshit.

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Moreover... C'Tis remained neutral in large part because we didn't want to be the one screwing up the game for the remaining major powers. C'Tis can't win, so why ruin someone else's chance of winning just to alleviate boredom?

I'd like to point out that if we really wanted to, we could have embargo'd Marignon. Pangea certainly asked. Instead, we traded more with Marignon than any other power; because they had what we needed.

Also, we could have also invaded that one Marignon VP province just outside of our border. But we didn't. Because again: It'd be unfair for Marignon to have to fight another enemy just so I have something more to do than to make one fucking clam a turn.

From my perspective C'Tis was out of the game: Our only real purpose was to prevent anyone from getting an easy two VP by fighting tooth and nail for our territory (but no one wanted to attack, so meh). Our secondary purpose was to stay the hell out of the way of the major powers and let them fight it out without our interferace - we weren't going to win the game by attacking anyone anyway, and all I'd be accomplishing by attacking is to engage in king-making.

In short, I deliberately limited my role precisely because I knew that it would be bad form to shit all over something somebody worked 50 turns for just to get some scripting practice.

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In comparison, if Jotunheim is as strong as you claim it is, then they should have absolutely no problem steam-rollering Man, and then they can join in the fracas with the Big 3 and have a decent chance of not being just second place, but being the only winner of this game.

But they're not playing to win. They're just playing to be second place (which again doesn't exist); and in doing so they are ensuring Marignon's win.

So any point in playing this game any further was lost altogether; as Marignon now has so much freedom of action that even the one scenario I've been preparing for (defending C'Tis from an invasion to deny someone else 2 VP for as long as possible - and the enemy could have been Pangea, R'yleh, or Marignon) simply isn't gonna happen.

[tenuki]

A large part of late-game acrimony comes from having to work for 50+ turns, and then getting pissed off at other players doing something to ruin all of that - especially if that "something" doesn't actually win the game for those other players.

You mean like declaring neutrality and making NAPs with all the major players when the end game wars had already begun?

-Username17

Whose game could he possibly ruin with that? NAPs are mutually agreed, wars generally aren't.

More button-pushing; I have to say I'm not as impressed with the quality of your contributions to the forum as I used to be... Trollman indeed.

Of course you're under no obligation to give a fuck.

[Edit: Quote added for context]

[Winnah]

It looks like there is some kind of issue with llamaserver. The status shows that the game has ticked over to turn 66, but the score table has not updated from 65.

[Ancient History]

Tenuki: Don't take in-game grievances out-of-game.

[tenuki]

Sorry, I meant the thread, not the forum. I still enjoy reading Frank's articles about games in general a great deal.

[Username17]

Just to be clear: Tenuki and Zinegata are decrying the unfairness and dishonor of one player declaring war on another, having granted the appropriate time for an NAP to expire.

While there is no rule against doing so, I am not having anyone cut down castles in the middle of their empire to feed me victory points. We're literally just having people throw hissy fits that one player declared honorable war against another and is attempting to take their territories and add them to their own.

That's super pathetic honestly. You have a right to expect that someone will send you the other end of a trade, and you have the right to expect that someone will maintain the letter of a NAP. But you sure as hell don't have the right to expect any particular player to be on your side.

-Username17

[Shiritai]

It looks like there is some kind of issue with llamaserver. The status shows that the game has ticked over to turn 66, but the score table has not updated from 65.

Yeah, the turns received hasn't updated either; they're stuck on turn 65. I had to request a turn resend just to get the turn 66 file.

[tenuki]

Just to be clear: Tenuki and Zinegata are decrying the unfairness and dishonor of one player declaring war on another, having granted the appropriate time for an NAP to expire.

For the last time (promise):

I got out of this game because you started pulling convenient new rules out of your ass and got away with it.

[Ancient History]

What rule? None of the hard-and-fast mechanical rules of the game have changed, no-one's hacked the code. Any deal between players is just a matter of diplomacy - no different from a NAP.

[tenuki]

I said promise. If you seriously want to carry on with the discussion, open a new thread or PM me.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I honestly think that argument's based on irreconcilable assumptions. For instance, in non-VP games, winning coalitions are totally a thing, because otherwise games have a tendency to not end ever.

In many gaming circles, not playing to win really upsets people, whether the offending player is just farting around or actively trolling other players. Because it throws off the game theory or similar.

But in something as long and complex as Dom3, I take the attitude that your skillz (diplomatic, scripting, other) are only a few factors in a giant butterfly-effect collision of determining who wins. Also that real world leaders are often crazy people who do stupid things, and sometimes other leaders just have to deal with that.

[Shiritai]

But in something as long and complex as Dom3, I take the attitude that your skillz (diplomatic, scripting, other) are only a few factors in a giant butterfly-effect collision of determining who wins. Also that real world leaders are often crazy people who do stupid things, and sometimes other leaders just have to deal with that.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say earlier but you've summed it up much better. I've only had a little MP experience, but I've seen quite a few players whose actions could never be modeled by any sort of rational choice theory, and I didn't see anything wrong with that. So I was caught off-guard by tenuki's expectation of players always choosing the strategy most likely to bring them total victory, especially considering the spread of skill levels we have in this game.

[Winnah]

Playing for fun? Your ideas are strange and discomforting...

Anyway, llamaserver seems to be accepting turns. Just not updating the status properly.

[Zinegata]

Frank Trollman's a lying shit. The issue, again, is not Jotunheim declaring war on Pangea.

The issue is Jotunheim being convinced that playing for second place actually fucking means something. And that Frank Trollman supports this crack addiction by insisting that Jotunheim be recognized right now as the second placer despite having being fourth place in fucking VP.

Again, 19 VP to win. That's the rules everyone agreed to at the start. No second placers; no coalition victory. Yet clearly, the rules have been changed because Trollman insist that the fourth placer in VP should be recognized as the second placer by virtue of Jotunheim being a fucking tool.

This isn't "playing for fun". Angel describes it more correctly: Leaders are often crazy (or stupid) people; and you sometimes have to deal with that.

I'm out because I don't want to have to deal with that kind of bullshit anymore, and because its a fucking forgone conclusion anyway.

Playing in a game where another player can be convinced that you don't have to actually win by checkmating the opponent is not a game. It's a popularity contest. We may as well have played fucking Werewolf or Resistance instead; and that's certainly not what I signed up for.

There is a diplomatic aspect to Dominions. But in all my conversations with other serious Dominions players (or any multiplayer diplomacy game for that matter) the concept of only one winner is sacred to ensure that bullshit play doesn't happen. People who think this is "acceptable", no matter their skill level, will be in for a shock if they play outside of this little circle.

[Shiritai]

The issue is Jotunheim being convinced that playing for second place actually fucking means something.

Where the fuck have I ever said that, you disingenuous growth of afterbirth

But seriously, I don't give a damn about second place, third, fourth or whatever. I play for the challenge, and if I can win that's cool too. Testing myself against Pangaea's armies looked to be fun, so that's what I did. It didn't require breaking any existing treaties either, which was certainly a plus, but yeah, I did it for fun. I couldn't care less about 'bragging rights' when it comes to Dom3 victories. With how much randomness is present in the game, I don't see how one could enjoy it if they only cared about winning.

[Zinegata]

Where the fuck have I ever said that, you disingenuous growth of afterbirth

But seriously, I don't give a damn about second place, third, fourth or whatever. I play for the challenge, and if I can win that's cool too. Testing myself against Pangaea's armies looked to be fun, so that's what I did. It didn't require breaking any existing treaties either, which was certainly a plus, but yeah, I did it for fun. I couldn't care less about 'bragging rights' when it comes to Dom3 victories. With how much randomness is present in the game, I don't see how one could enjoy it if they only cared about winning.

Oh, look at what Frank said:

If you guys wish to concede with me in first and Jotunheim in second, that's fine

You're a lying shit. He outright said that you two colluded for first and second. Don't give me bullshit about "I'm doing this for fun" when you are in fact just wanting to kiss Frank's ass!

[Shiritai]

How exactly does that quote from Frank contradict anything I said? I think you're confusing motivation and result.

To make it more clear, whatever Frank says in his hypothetical victory speech is completely incidental to my own goals in this game.

[Korwin]

Game is hosting in a little over 2 hours...

[Username17]

What the fuck?

I literally never received a Turn 66. I'm requesting a turn "resend" and I'll try to get a turn in, but what the fucking hell is going on?

-Username17

[Quantumboost]

What the fuck?

I literally never received a Turn 66. I'm requesting a turn "resend" and I'll try to get a turn in, but what the fucking hell is going on?

-Username17

Same here, received the "hosting in 12 hours" without a turnfile.

[Korwin]

Luckily I look directly at Laamaserver, not my E-Mail or I migth have missed it too.
Even then I looked only a little over 2 hours before hosting.

[Username17]

It's a slap dash turn, but I have sent it. We'll see if Llamaserver actually accepts the damn thing before the new turn clicks over.

-Username17

[Winnah]

There appeared to be an issue with hosting turn 65. The status and score table only updated properly when I sent in Pan's turn. I had to ask for a turn resend in order to get the .trn file though.

I don't think anyone got their files sent out to them, so if they were waiting for the e-mail, then they are going to stale.

While part of me thinks this is pretty funny, I am not adverse to a rollback so that active players can get their turns in.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I put a delay on the turn to try and help. I wonder if it will take.

[Winnah]

It appears that it has. At the very least, it should allow some players the opportunity to put more time into their turns.