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Longes
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

name_here wrote:
The Avengers are not American agents. They had formerly been under the control of the international SHIELD organization and the World Security Council but are independent at the start of the film.

So what? What kind of country would accept an independent paramilitary organisation dropping by and fighting 'terrorists' on its territory uninvited?
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name_here
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, an independent paramilitary organization is not focused on advancing the interests of a specific and potentially hostile foreign nation, so there is less concern that they're an instrument of American foreign policy given that they actually don't take orders from the US. So any country that trusts the motives and competence of the Avengers in their stated mission of protecting innocent life would probably be happy to officially let them, and indeed the Avengers do have a pretty good track record of going after actual terrorists as demonstrated by how they're in Lagos to foil someone who has a track record of robbing police stations and who opts to steal an extremely dangerous pathogen in one of the densest urban centers on Earth with a relatively weak healthcare infrastructure.

Of course, without oversight there's nothing to guarantee that they'll keep doing that except their individual personalities. But with oversight it's basically guaranteed their deployments will be delayed pending authorization by at least a bit, and the members of the oversight task force may well block deployments or send them against "terrorists" because a voting bloc supports their own national interests over the interests of another nation. The Accords are basically the most legitimate possible regulatory scenario, but those drawbacks do still exist. And are the points of debate in the movie. Cap thinks that any controlling authority of that nature risks inefficiency and corruption, Stark thinks having so much power purely under the control of a handful of individuals who report to no one spells disaster good intentions or not, and some of the others aren't too happy with the idea of the board but feel it would be wrong to disobey international law whether they like it or not.
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Longes wrote:

Only the anti-registration side had no argument. Hell, it's not even a "registration" argument, it's the "Avengers legal status" argument, and Cap goes "we can't trust the politicians to decide where we can and can't deploy".


But, that's actually true. They really can't trust politicians. Many politicians are, in fact, secretly members of a Nazi-descended ultra-fascist secret society.

Longes wrote:
We don't allow domestic vigilantes in the real world, do we?


Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_Angels

They don't have the liability protections that police enjoy, but plenty such organizations actually exist. Civilians are justified in interveening to stop violent crime, under self-defense/defense of others. No one in real life is going to be arrested for tackling a suicide bomber.

The biggest anti-vigilante argument regarding the Avengers actually applies to Stark, Black Widow, and Hawkeye, since they're almost certainly violating weapon control laws, Black Widow with her guns, Hawkeye with his explosive arrows, and Stark with his everything. But there's probably no law anywhere against being huge and green.


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name_here
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Avengers probably do break anti-vigilante laws when they go to storm hidden doom fortresses. But that's only mildly relavent to the argument because they could just be given legal authority to do that on their own initiative and the real question is whether they should be allowed to do that.

Since no one seems to be calling for actually prosecuting them for what they did before the signing of the Accords, either their actions were legal (possibly a holdover from SHIELD's authorization to have military bases across the planet) or everyone in the setting agrees that existing laws shouldn't be applied because they weren't written to account for superhumans.
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DSMatticus wrote:
It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
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Shrapnel
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hyzmarca wrote:
Longes wrote:

Only the anti-registration side had no argument. Hell, it's not even a "registration" argument, it's the "Avengers legal status" argument, and Cap goes "we can't trust the politicians to decide where we can and can't deploy".


But, that's actually true. They really can't trust politicians. Many politicians are, in fact, secretly members of a Nazi-descended ultra-fascist secret society.


That wants to bring a god-like Inhuman to Earth to rule the world.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, the fact that DC got tore up by helicarriers manned by secret Hydra agents embedded in the World Security Council and overseen by people officially part of the global hegemony but actually secret villains makes a very strong case for Captain America's position. He didn't articulate it well (or hardly at all, in fact), but it's actually a pretty good argument. When Captain America says that working for agencies is dangerous because agencies have agendas that can change, remember that the previous movie showed that sometimes the agenda of technocrats turns out to be "Hail Hydra!"

The only person who made a compelling case for or against was Rhodes. He made a very strong pro-Sokovia Accords argument with his "Dangerous Arrogance" bit. Everyone else on both sides was delivering extremely weaksauce arguments and even arguments so bad that they could have been used virtually verbatim arguing the other position.

-Frank
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Longes
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
Yeah, the fact that DC got tore up by helicarriers manned by secret Hydra agents embedded in the World Security Council and overseen by people officially part of the global hegemony but actually secret villains makes a very strong case for Captain America's position. He didn't articulate it well (or hardly at all, in fact), but it's actually a pretty good argument. When Captain America says that working for agencies is dangerous because agencies have agendas that can change, remember that the previous movie showed that sometimes the agenda of technocrats turns out to be "Hail Hydra!"

The only person who made a compelling case for or against was Rhodes. He made a very strong pro-Sokovia Accords argument with his "Dangerous Arrogance" bit. Everyone else on both sides was delivering extremely weaksauce arguments and even arguments so bad that they could have been used virtually verbatim arguing the other position.

-Frank


Right, but internal security aside (I haven't seen Cap 2 or Age of Ultron, how were those secret villains embeded?), Cap wants to ignore the democratically elected leaders (and undemocratic kings, I suppose) because he knows better and/or because those leaders might have an agenda he personally disapproves of. This is even brought up in the movie, and left without a response by Cap.
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Longes wrote:
(I haven't seen Cap 2 or Age of Ultron, how were those secret villains embeded?),


Ultron was a long con by Thanos. They found out that the Mind Gem was inside Loki's staff from the first movie, and it had an AI or something capable of being, well, Ultron, an AI capable of monitoring the whole world. Stark and Banner had had the idea of Ultron but never been able to implement it because they don't have AI -that- good yet. So they put Ultron together, he turned out to be genocidal towards meatbags, etc etc.

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Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!


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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In Age of Ultron, Ultron is an evil artificial intelligence that goes online with a bunch of Tony Stark code and a worm embedded into Loki's staff by Hydra. It then proceeds to take control of Tony Stark's automated factory and build itself a bunch of robot bodies that then run off and devastate Sokovia in the process of trying and failing to destroy the entire world. So basically, the devastation of Sokovia, while factually precipitated by secret Nazis working with evil aliens, is a thing that was performed by and with Iron Man's half finished stuff. It is entirely reasonable to blame Tony Stark for the destruction of Sokovia, and demanding that he get some fucking oversight on his hare brained projects is completely legit. The alien sabotage angle is at this time unknown even to Tony Stark, who currently believes that the entire Sokovia tragedy happened pretty much entirely because he went to bed with a half finished SkyNet cooking.

In Winter Soldier, it turns out that thousands of Hydra agents have infiltrated SHIELD and the World Security Council, and their end game is that they have packed their loyalists onto the Helicarriers and have crafted a giant database of potential political troublemakers and intend to traverse the world drone striking everyone who is sufficiently anti-authoritarian to stand up to the iron boot of Hydra. Also they kill everyone on the central committee who isn't a secret Hydra loyalist and give carte blanche official approval for "world conquest." The end result is that a shit tonne of SHIELD and Hydra agents get killed and both are disbanded along with the World Security Council and all that shit. After that happened, any argument that you want to create a central body in charge of directing international metahuman strike forces has got to be view extremely dubiously.

And again, this is where the only decent argument in the movie was made by Rhodes.

Rhodes wrote:
I'm sorry, Steve, that... that is dangerously arrogant. This is the United Nations we're talking about. It's not the World Security Council. It's not S.H.I.E.L.D.. It's not HYDRA-


That is a powerful argument in favor of the Accords. Every other argument on both sides in the movie was shit.

-Frank
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Longes wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:
Yeah, the fact that DC got tore up by helicarriers manned by secret Hydra agents embedded in the World Security Council and overseen by people officially part of the global hegemony but actually secret villains makes a very strong case for Captain America's position. He didn't articulate it well (or hardly at all, in fact), but it's actually a pretty good argument. When Captain America says that working for agencies is dangerous because agencies have agendas that can change, remember that the previous movie showed that sometimes the agenda of technocrats turns out to be "Hail Hydra!"

The only person who made a compelling case for or against was Rhodes. He made a very strong pro-Sokovia Accords argument with his "Dangerous Arrogance" bit. Everyone else on both sides was delivering extremely weaksauce arguments and even arguments so bad that they could have been used virtually verbatim arguing the other position.

-Frank


Right, but internal security aside (I haven't seen Cap 2 or Age of Ultron, how were those secret villains embeded?), Cap wants to ignore the democratically elected leaders (and undemocratic kings, I suppose) because he knows better and/or because those leaders might have an agenda he personally disapproves of. This is even brought up in the movie, and left without a response by Cap.


Basically, SHIELD and the World Security Council were founded by Hydra scientists that were swept up in Operation Paperclip and given pardons. It isn't so much that Hydra was embedded in those agencies so much as that those agencies were, at their core, extensions of Hydra. Cut off one head and two more will take its place. In MCU, the black helicopter conspiracy theorists are actually right.

Note, most of the Hydra-affiliated politicians aren't actually bad guys. They're half-decent people who buy into the idea that an ultra-fascist totalitarian state that preemptively assassinates potential threats before they cause any damage is the best way to pursue the greater good and keep people safe.

FrankTrollman wrote:

That is a powerful argument in favor of the Accords. Every other argument on both sides in the movie was shit.

-Frank


I'm not sure that it is, because it's presupposed on the idea that the United Nations is not, and cannot be, corrupt and ineffectual. I look at actual history and laugh at that notion.


The Accords do have one huge flaw, all things being equal. There is no actual mechanism to enforce them against these super-powered people. What happens when you give them bad orders and they chose to disobey? They your entire regulatory regime goes up in smoke and the damage caused to the public's confidence in the system is actually worse than it would be if you just let the Avengers do their thing. The Accords only have teeth so long as about half of the Avengers agree with you, and even then those are fairly dull teeth.


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Schleiermacher
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm not so sure about that. One of my friends made the same argument when we went to see the movie - "Right, they'll retire as enforced by who?" - but most of the Avengers (Thor, Hulk and, generously, Vision being the exceptions) aren't actually "super enough" that they could continue to operate as superheroes in the face of a global society that viewed them as rogue millitants. Tony Stark is hugely reliant on infrastructure and money to keep Iron Man and War Machine operational. Hawkeye, Black Widow, Captain America, Falcon and the Scarlet Witch (as well as Ant-Man, Spider-Man and the Winter Soldier, not that they're members of the Avengers) are all vulnerable to conventional armed force, if applied intelligently and in sufficient amounts. They're basically Shadowrunners.

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Longes
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hyzmarca wrote:
The Accords do have one huge flaw, all things being equal. There is no actual mechanism to enforce them against these super-powered people. What happens when you give them bad orders and they chose to disobey? They your entire regulatory regime goes up in smoke and the damage caused to the public's confidence in the system is actually worse than it would be if you just let the Avengers do their thing. The Accords only have teeth so long as about half of the Avengers agree with you, and even then those are fairly full teeth.


Cap clearly considered conventional SWAT team to be a legitimate threat to the Winter Soldier, and Iron Man has been rivaled by the inferior robots of an inferior arms manufacturer in Iron Man 2. Hell, in Iron Man 3 he nearly gets taken down by an attack helicopter.
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name_here
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'd really say Vision is the only one who is actually exempt from military force, and only because he can turn ethereal. Even discounting various forms of exotic crap like any salvaged Tesserect-based weapons, they're generally susceptible to massed anti-tank weaponry. That's not ideal against human-sized targets, but the nations of the world could take most of them down if it really did come down to it. Thor's possibly an exception, but he's also kind of alien royalty and they'd be best served finding a way to file a complaint with Odin anyway.

But they did seem to be planning on having a majority of the Avengers obey them on the basis of legal authority. And indeed when there's a split during the movie, the UN Avengers do go to bring in the others and do successfully detain most of them.
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It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Longes wrote:
hyzmarca wrote:
The Accords do have one huge flaw, all things being equal. There is no actual mechanism to enforce them against these super-powered people. What happens when you give them bad orders and they chose to disobey? They your entire regulatory regime goes up in smoke and the damage caused to the public's confidence in the system is actually worse than it would be if you just let the Avengers do their thing. The Accords only have teeth so long as about half of the Avengers agree with you, and even then those are fairly full teeth.


Cap clearly considered conventional SWAT team to be a legitimate threat to the Winter Soldier, and Iron Man has been rivaled by the inferior robots of an inferior arms manufacturer in Iron Man 2. Hell, in Iron Man 3 he nearly gets taken down by an attack helicopter.


It's been a bit since I saw TWS, but weren't the SWAT not so much a legitimate threat as uninvolved civvies that Cap didn't want to beat into the pavement? The cops who pursued Fury were actually imposters, though, so I may be misremembering.

The "inferior robots" of IM2 were actually inferior suits from an inferior arms manufacturer that were turned into superior drones by the Eastern European equivalent of Tony himself.
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Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Prak wrote:
It's been a bit since I saw TWS, but weren't the SWAT not so much a legitimate threat as uninvolved civvies that Cap didn't want to beat into the pavement? The cops who pursued Fury were actually imposters, though, so I may be misremembering.

The "inferior robots" of IM2 were actually inferior suits from an inferior arms manufacturer that were turned into superior drones by the Eastern European equivalent of Tony himself.


Not "in" the Winter Soldier "to" the Winter Solider. He is saying that in Civil War, he goes to protect bucky from the SWAT. However, while that might be partially true, it might also be that he want to protect the SWAT from Bucky, since he on many occasions saves swat lives from Bucky during that fight.
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That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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name_here
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2016 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's not SWAT, it's at least a platoon of special forces with a helicopter gunship. It seemed pretty clear they did have enough firepower to have a serious chance of killing Bucky. Not necessarily a guarantee, but decent odds.
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DSMatticus wrote:
It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2016 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Catpain America III can be described as "Facebook Argument with Ironman" and everyone acts kind of illogically. I hope Ryan Coogler can create a not-retarded corner of the Disney cinematic universe with Black Panther.

Rick & Morty is a great show, watched the Meeseeks episode today. Not many American shows do good rape jokes nowadays.


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Prak
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2016 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
Prak wrote:
It's been a bit since I saw TWS, but weren't the SWAT not so much a legitimate threat as uninvolved civvies that Cap didn't want to beat into the pavement? The cops who pursued Fury were actually imposters, though, so I may be misremembering.

The "inferior robots" of IM2 were actually inferior suits from an inferior arms manufacturer that were turned into superior drones by the Eastern European equivalent of Tony himself.


Not "in" the Winter Soldier "to" the Winter Solider. He is saying that in Civil War, he goes to protect bucky from the SWAT. However, while that might be partially true, it might also be that he want to protect the SWAT from Bucky, since he on many occasions saves swat lives from Bucky during that fight.


Oh, gotcha. That's what I get for reading fast.
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Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
I approved of Stark calling her the surprisingly hot aunt.

Anyway, the Sokovia argument for registration is very strong. The New York argument was negatively persuasive as was the Lagos argument. The DC argument was mixed, but on the balance poor because the rogue elements attacking a city there were Hydra agents who had already infiltrated the very type of oversight committee under discussion.

The Lagos bit was one of the strongest parts of the film and I wouldn't cut it. But the deaths of eleven people from not getting the bomb far enough away from a crowded market doesn't even seem like an overall failed mission, considering the villains had already killed more people than that and were doing something that would obviously kill many more. Trying to use that as a tipping point against the Avengers didn't work in any context. Sokovia stands by itself and watering the argument down with other events from other movies didn't work.

The registration side should have been just saying Sokovia over and over again while the anti side should have been the ones talking Lagos and New York. Ross' insistence on talking about other movies that don't support his point at all weakened the film.

-Frank


Finally saw Civil War. I think it being presented as a Captain America movie (as opposed to an Avengers movie, which it was in all but title and POV) weakened the film, because the main protagonist is, like, 95% of the reason for the accords. Steve will always and forever do whatever the fuck he pleasesfeels is right, and Tony was 100% right that there needed to be some kind of oversight.

Now, there are two pragmatic reasons for Steve to accept the accords, 1, it gives him higher ups to shift criticism to. When someone says "you killed my son taking out a robot that wanted to destroy the human species!" he can say "I lie awake every single night thinking of all the people I couldn't save when I was saving the world, but in the end, I was put into the field by people who are paid, and trusted, to decide when and where enhanced individuals intervene." 2, Bucky. Just, every single part of CW that had to do with Bucky. In fact, right now, I am choosing to believe that the entire film was actually a vivid hallucination in Cap's head performed by Vision to explain to Cap why the accords were a good thing. Basically "Bucky will resurface, and we don't know if he'll be under Hydra's control when he does. He is literally a brain washed slave soldier, and there is a high likelihood that one day he will come back behind a gun, or pressing the detonator on a bomb. When that happens, would you rather lead the team that retrieves him, able to dictate how, and with what force that happens and help your buddy who is being literally mind controlled by a terrorist organization from within the system, or would you rather have to fight the guys they do send in, who will most likely be told to terminate with extreme prejudice?"

But by being a Captain America movie, Steve is the POV protagonist, and is set up as the person who is right, and by opposition, Tony is set up as wrong, and while that may be true in the case of Bucky's innocence in the events of the film, that's sheer dumb luck, and at least 80% not true in the case of the framing tension re: the accords.

Fuck, for that matter, someone should have just had Steve listen to some Lewis Black

Lewis Black on Environmentalism wrote:
If it's not environmental terrorism then it's ah... it coulda been ah... well it's obviously global warming, that's what it is and we're not gonna deal with that either. 135 nations signed the global warming treaty, we didn't, we didn't!

We wonder why the world thinks we're arrogant, haha.

135 nations signed the treaty, we go, "hey, go fuck yourselves. We don't give... go suck on our shit, suck on our shit!"

You sign the treaty asshole! You sign the fucking treaty, and then we do whatever we want, but pretend. Pretend you're interested."


Because, seriously, the Avengers could have just signed the fucking accords, and then when the UN prevents them from helping people, Tony makes a call to the nation in question, says "Hey, want our help?" and the country says yes, and the Avengers go in and save lives, and in the hearing after, Spiderman shows up to give a "With great power" speech, and we move on.

But Steve does have the seed of a decent argument, agencies can have agendas and sometimes those agendas change, but while "the government is oppressing our freedom" might be a valid argument if the government is actually doing so, that doesn't make Libertarianism the solution. It means you root out the problem and replace it. So while Steve has a point, he's still wrong in his conclusion. What was American Government class like in the 40s that he doesn't understand the idea of checks and balances?
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.


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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Prak wrote:

2, Bucky. Just, every single part of CW that had to do with Bucky. In fact, right now, I am choosing to believe that the entire film was actually a vivid hallucination in Cap's head performed by Vision to explain to Cap why the accords were a good thing. Basically "Bucky will resurface, and we don't know if he'll be under Hydra's control when he does. He is literally a brain washed slave soldier, and there is a high likelihood that one day he will come back behind a gun, or pressing the detonator on a bomb. When that happens, would you rather lead the team that retrieves him, able to dictate how, and with what force that happens and help your buddy who is being literally mind controlled by a terrorist organization from within the system, or would you rather have to fight the guys they do send in, who will most likely be told to terminate with extreme prejudice?"

That presumes that they'd ever let Steve lead the team that goes after Bucky. Which they won't, for exactly that reason.

Quote:



Because, seriously, the Avengers could have just signed the fucking accords, and then when the UN prevents them from helping people, Tony makes a call to the nation in question, says "Hey, want our help?" and the country says yes, and the Avengers go in and save lives, and in the hearing after, Spiderman shows up to give a "With great power" speech, and we move on.

The problem arises when you're literally five minutes away from the apocalypse and that little delay causes the extinction of the human race, which would have been the case if they needed approval to go into Sokovia.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Commenting on FB about this I figured out exactly what was missing from Civil War-



Nick Fury

Edit- but I guess having someone point out that a piece paper does not actually prevent them from acting on their own discretion, just create extra consequences for when they do, kind of goes against the entire tension of the movie.
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.


Last edited by Prak on Tue May 24, 2016 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pixels
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Joined: 14 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hyzmarca wrote:
The problem arises when you're literally five minutes away from the apocalypse and that little delay causes the extinction of the human race, which would have been the case if they needed approval to go into Sokovia.
If they really believe that the world is in immediate danger, then they just have to dive in and take the risk that the UN will reprimand them later. Hopefully Stark was smart enough to negotiate an "extraordinary actions can be justified post-hoc with evidence of extraordinarily dangerous activity" clause.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hopefully, but even if he didn't, his legal defense could just be "Ok, throw us in jail for saving the world. I mean, I guess you'll know where we are when you need us to do it again. Oh, by the way, think about who designed the cells for holding enhanced individuals..."
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

They changed too much from the comics for the movie <.<
Of course they did. The Civil War Event is too big and too IP spanning to realistically do anything else, sadly.
And then they made the movie too damn long. 3 Hours PLUS BREAK. IN 3D!

In the comics, the whole thing went much worse, from start to finish.
A dozend dead diplomats? Even from wakanda in the comics that would not have made much of a difference.
More than 300 dead college kids?
OMG! WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF OUR CHILDREN?
Of course that gets more traction.
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Longes
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Stahlseele wrote:
They changed too much from the comics for the movie <.<
Of course they did. The Civil War Event is too big and too IP spanning to realistically do anything else, sadly.
And then they made the movie too damn long. 3 Hours PLUS BREAK. IN 3D!


Wait, what? It's 2:30h - like most movies these days.
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