I have two questions:
1) What's your opinion on the Tome Thief Acrobat class?
I like the flavor, but how well does it hold up in actual play. While it looks interesting, it seems to be more of a dip class to me.
2) What would be the best way to build a swashbuckler using F&K Tome rules at roughly levels 3 to 10?
I'm looking for a viable way to represent a no or light armored, Dex-based fighter. I figure it would use a rapier or thinblade in one hand, and maybe a dagger in the other. I was looking through some of the Tome [Combat] feats, and Weapon Finesse is really nice, but it seems like you'd need to be BAB 11 before you get Dex to damage. Without something like Sneak Attack, it's hard to deal much in the way of damage. Two Weapon Fightling looks nice, but you have to wait a while to Feint as a swift action.
I know Koumei made a swashbuckler class a while ago, but I'm curious if it can be done with the F&K classes.
Thief Acrobat and Swashbucklers
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angelfromanotherpin
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Re: Thief Acrobat and Swashbucklers
Tome Monk is the place to start, although it's heavily weighted to dumping Dex. I put together an alternate 'Willow Fist' class feature to replace Willow Step and let it dump Str instead. Take a one-level dip into something else for weapon proficiencies and you're well on your way. Monks and their Slam have a weird relationship with two-weapon fighting, but two opportunities to stun a person isn't bad, and using a Sai in your off-hand with the style that lets you disarm people who attack you is in genre for a swashbuckler. You don't do a whole lot of damage, but you'll discover that you don't care that much.RobbyPants wrote:2) What would be the best way to build a swashbuckler using F&K Tome rules at roughly levels 3 to 10?
I'm looking for a viable way to represent a no or light armored, Dex-based fighter. I figure it would use a rapier or thinblade in one hand, and maybe a dagger in the other. I was looking through some of the Tome [Combat] feats, and Weapon Finesse is really nice, but it seems like you'd need to be BAB 11 before you get Dex to damage. Without something like Sneak Attack, it's hard to deal much in the way of damage. Two Weapon Fightling looks nice, but you have to wait a while to Feint as a swift action.
I know Koumei made a swashbuckler class a while ago, but I'm curious if it can be done with the F&K classes.
You could also try a high-Dex Soldier. Granted, Dex is going to be your third stat, but if you take a dex-boosting race, it could still be high enough that dropping to light armor is a valid life choice. Probably want to use a buckler (or a weaponized buckler variant) in your off-hand, but that's okay because bucklers are the actual source of the second half of swashbuckler. Soldier strikes mean (almost) never being sorry you only make one attack per round.
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RobbyPants
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Answer to 2:
Fighter.
Take Weapon Finesse, TWF. Look for effects that happen on a successful hit and rely on your high attack bonus (max dex, magic weapons, etc) to lock down enemies. Subtle Cut provides a couple, so does Combat School. Both have the benefit of providing extra damage, too.
Whirlwind and Elusive target may help with both of those.
Also take a look at Blitz and Hordebreaker (definitely Hordebreaker) Expert Tactician lets you feint as an immediate action at level 1 and gives flanking bonuses
You can use the Mithril Suit (technically a medium armor, but has a really low ACP). It scales with Tumble, so could look at taking a Tumbling skill feat so you can mobilize and flank. Nice with Expert Tactician.
Then you name your character Errol Elwes, after Errol Flynn and the guy from Men in Tights and Princess Bride, and have him go "Have at you, black dogs!"
You actually have several options for a swashbuckler there. Do you want him to be a damage dealer, or have a better AC, stunlock people, or play well with the rest of the group?
Because, seriously, you have those options. There's plenty of feats applicable, but not enough feat slots. But you have enough to do at least one of those really well, and some things of another.
Fighter.
Take Weapon Finesse, TWF. Look for effects that happen on a successful hit and rely on your high attack bonus (max dex, magic weapons, etc) to lock down enemies. Subtle Cut provides a couple, so does Combat School. Both have the benefit of providing extra damage, too.
Whirlwind and Elusive target may help with both of those.
Also take a look at Blitz and Hordebreaker (definitely Hordebreaker) Expert Tactician lets you feint as an immediate action at level 1 and gives flanking bonuses
You can use the Mithril Suit (technically a medium armor, but has a really low ACP). It scales with Tumble, so could look at taking a Tumbling skill feat so you can mobilize and flank. Nice with Expert Tactician.
Then you name your character Errol Elwes, after Errol Flynn and the guy from Men in Tights and Princess Bride, and have him go "Have at you, black dogs!"
You actually have several options for a swashbuckler there. Do you want him to be a damage dealer, or have a better AC, stunlock people, or play well with the rest of the group?
Because, seriously, you have those options. There's plenty of feats applicable, but not enough feat slots. But you have enough to do at least one of those really well, and some things of another.
Last edited by Maxus on Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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CatharzGodfoot
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Thief acrobat is cool with full BAB. Not a massive powerhouse, but at least viable. The other question has been pretty well answered.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
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-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
A Full-BAB T-A is definitely worth playing until at least you can get that power to flank with yourself and Expert Tactician. Seriously, flank with yourself for a +4 bonus. Can tumble to avoid the AoO's. Helps a lot with maintaining the high-mobility combat style.CatharzGodfoot wrote:Thief acrobat is cool with full BAB. Not a massive powerhouse, but at least viable. The other question has been pretty well answered.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
You mean...instead of 9d6 at the end, 10d6?
That's not that much of a difference, dude.
The BAB actually helps a lot. It makes Sneak attack more likely to hit, it gives a reason to take a lot of the combat feats, which provide their own benefits, and it can give that extra attack for another round of sneak attack.
That's not that much of a difference, dude.
The BAB actually helps a lot. It makes Sneak attack more likely to hit, it gives a reason to take a lot of the combat feats, which provide their own benefits, and it can give that extra attack for another round of sneak attack.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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RobbyPants
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I seriously considered fighter just because of the plethora of good [Combat] feats. I also thought two to three levels of Thief Acrobat could be nice for some of the flavor abilities, but I was having a hard time figuring out if I wanted to take the one point hit in BAB. I guess with Weapon Finesse, I can still have the Edge on people with a lower Dex mod, so it's not such a big hit.Maxus wrote:You actually have several options for a swashbuckler there. Do you want him to be a damage dealer, or have a better AC, stunlock people, or play well with the rest of the group?
Because, seriously, you have those options. There's plenty of feats applicable, but not enough feat slots. But you have enough to do at least one of those really well, and some things of another.
As for the goal, I don't have a clear one yet. I've just always liked the idea of a high-dex fighter type, and was wondering if it could be pulled off without defaulting to TWF Rogue. If I had to define it better, I'd say:
- Dex-based
- Uses a rapier or similar light blade
- Moderate damage dealer
- Mobile, good incentive to not wear heavy armor
- Some good schtick(s) other than stabbing fools with a rapier
That being said, I was looking over Combat School after posting this, and it jumped out. Dazing is quite nice. TWF looked cool for the rapier-dagger combo, but it wasn't a must have. I also liked Subtle Cut, and if nothing else, stacking Dex damage on something big and slow could be an effective way to two-shot it; I just have to survive for two rounds.
The full BAB TA is a house-rule, right? That hasn't been changed from the original version officially, has it?CatharzGodfoot wrote:Thief acrobat is cool with full BAB. Not a massive powerhouse, but at least viable. The other question has been pretty well answered.
I think Phaedrus gave it a rogue's SA progression because he said it felt weak. It wouldn't be a big deal at high level, but it would be a big deal around level 5 and lower. I agree that full BAB is a nicer boost.Blicero wrote:Has anyone tried giving the TA the rogue's sneakattack progression instead of full BAB?
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CatharzGodfoot
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Full BAB has been OK'ed as errata, by K I believe. That's about as official as you'll get.RobbyPants wrote:The full BAB TA is a house-rule, right? That hasn't been changed from the original version officially, has it?CatharzGodfoot wrote:Thief acrobat is cool with full BAB. Not a massive powerhouse, but at least viable. The other question has been pretty well answered.
But seriously, it's a homebrew class. You shouldn't be afraid to tweak it.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
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RobbyPants
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TWF helps out with some AC--and any attack you get, you get two rolls on. Which helps ups your chances of, well, anything.
More seriously, your secondary shtick.
You could take Combat School and Subtle Cut and be a debuff machine (get your attack roll as high as you can, use the dazing/dex-penalty functions). Those feats have the benefit of adding to your damage, too.
Expert Tactician is especially nice if you can get another player (like someone with actual Sneak Attack) to be your flanking buddy. The +4 flanking bonus is made of goodness, and between your debuffs and the sneak attacks, you should do pretty well.
Those five feats together would be a solid way to go.
Other feats--Elusive Target, Lightning Reflexes--can help you avoid the hurt.
And Blitz is handy, if nothing else, for the +6 ability, which means your secondary attacks have a -2 penalty, as opposed to -5. So instead of +6/+1, your attack sequence because +6/+4.
It also lets you add your BAB to damage if you don't mind provoking AoOs and such.
More seriously, your secondary shtick.
You could take Combat School and Subtle Cut and be a debuff machine (get your attack roll as high as you can, use the dazing/dex-penalty functions). Those feats have the benefit of adding to your damage, too.
Expert Tactician is especially nice if you can get another player (like someone with actual Sneak Attack) to be your flanking buddy. The +4 flanking bonus is made of goodness, and between your debuffs and the sneak attacks, you should do pretty well.
Those five feats together would be a solid way to go.
Other feats--Elusive Target, Lightning Reflexes--can help you avoid the hurt.
And Blitz is handy, if nothing else, for the +6 ability, which means your secondary attacks have a -2 penalty, as opposed to -5. So instead of +6/+1, your attack sequence because +6/+4.
It also lets you add your BAB to damage if you don't mind provoking AoOs and such.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
The Tome is very accommodating for a swashbuckling fighting style. It places a dizzying array of viable options in your lap as a fighter. Though were it not for the fixed interesting in having a high dex build, I would go exclusively with the monk.
"Come... Submit... Obey... I am your friend and master. Your thoughts are like water to me."
The reason I know all these feats and synergies is because I did this work already. I wanted to make a swashbuckler, wanted to see what options are available, and came up with "Fighter" and "Weapon Finesse, TWF" and after that "Pick something and go for it."Molochio wrote:The Tome is very accommodating for a swashbuckling fighting style. It places a dizzying array of viable options in your lap as a fighter.
An early swashbuckler shares one facet with the early monk: It's easier to pick up some effects that activate on a hit and use them and a high attack bonus to lock down/inconvenience enemies however you can. When you further along, your have the ability to increase your damage output and your viable options open up further.
So, yeah, you can get good AC/saves going. You can get the damage output to resemble a blender. You can get a lot of effects and bonuses to help the rest of the party. You can become the Status Effect machine, leaving behind a trail of reduced-con, dazed people--not even telling what your weapon properties would do, for your party to mop up.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Josh_Kablack
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It's on the weak side in both DC's Sharn Watch game and my Enkpja Game. I strongly advise giving it either full BAB and/or every even level sneak attack.1) What's your opinion on the Tome Thief Acrobat class?
I like the flavor, but how well does it hold up in actual play. While it looks interesting, it seems to be more of a dip class to me.
Note that the tome progression doesn't get the second sneak attack die until 5th level. so with sneak attack and 2wf a 4th level TA is dealing like 2* (2d6+Str) in *melee*. Compare to the 4th level Fire Mage dealing 4d6+4 fire as a *ranged touch* attack without needing a feat nor a sneak attack condition. note that the attack bonuses are equal (if you are using tome feats, if not the 2wf penalties hose the TA worse) and note that the Fire mage gets MORE HP, better saves, and better WPs (but fewer skill points)
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RobbyPants
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