The elven enchantress in Morgenstein's party

[Molochio]

Once my human paladin, Count Morgenstein, was in a long running campaign which featured a beautiful elven enchantress by the name of Kareemna.
While there are many celebrated Count Morgenstein tales, today it is her story that I shall share.

Now Kareemna was played by a pretty blonde 16 year old girl and the character was, in essence, a super attractive, selfish, chaotic neutral version of herself, with magical powers and a 20 plus charisma score.

Kareemna took sadistic pleasure in complete and total control of the male species, and prided herself on her ability, to extract whatever she wanted from a man, be it information, riches, safe passage, or help for our party all by giving nothing of herself and taking everything from the subject.

I am not privy to most of her personal adventures because, as best she could, she avoided Count Morgenstein, for numerous reasons.
However, I do know of her fate.

Our party's DM was a woman and a some point Kareemna's player did something to cross her so the DM decided to get revenge on her character by abusing the one thing Kareemna had complete and total control of.

Her sexuality.
Many speculated that Kareemna was actually a virgin, as the maiden's true joy rested in denying and controlling men, and Kareemna herself only offered a haughty countenance even to fair would be suitors. Unless they had something she wanted.

So, in secret, our DM sent her an offer of even more charisma and magical power in exchange for doing a favor for a female ice demon of unparalleled beauty who then became Kareemna's mentor and gave her all that was promised.

As with most demonic pacts this agreement had loops and snares which Kareemna eventually fell through and for failing her master she was taken to hell a brutally raped for days on end by demons.

Of course, once she went missing our party eventually conducted enough divinations to discover that she had been stolen away by demons and Count Morgenstein, led the party on a mission to save her from hell, which succeeded.

But Kareemna was never the same afterwards and eventually stopped playing, a short while later.
What we did not know and did not find out until a while later was that the girl who was playing Kareemna was also being raped by her father, who was playing as the party's evoker, and this had been going on since age 12 or younger.

So Kareemna was the way she was with men because it allowed her, in fantasy, to take from men all that had been taken from her in life. However, even the super powerful representation of herself was eventually dragged off to a basement in hell and brutally raped by demons, depriving her of her power and sexual purify... Again.

It was an ironic tragedy, and I imagine that even to this day the DM still feels some guilt over orchestrating this fantasy which so closely mirrored the nightmare that was Kareemna's life.

Some people play to mirror their life. Others to become what they are not... Which are you?

[Grek]

And this is why it is never, ever, ever OK to say, "And then your character is brutally raped by demons, the end." as a DM. Ever.

[Molochio]

I can understand how it is tempting to make a hasty generalization regarding the matter "DM rapes the PC with demons" after having read of this particularly worst case scenario.

However, that is still a fallacy and one girl's misfortune does not define the entirety of the gaming community.
In the appropriate horror setting, with a group of like minded players who know what they are rolling into, I imagine this scenario has some possible gaming application.

I can certainly agree that no one should have to worry about such a thing when they sit down at the table for a normal adventure though.

There is an appropriate time and place for all things.

[CatharzGodfoot]

I do think that it's reasonable, when DMing for a 16 year old girl and her father, to never have said girl's character raped by demons. In fact, I think it's probably fair to extend that to all situations in which a minor is gaming with a parent.

[Ganbare Gincun]

As with most demonic pacts this agreement had loops and snares which Kareemna eventually fell through and for failing her master she was taken to hell a brutally raped for days on end by demons.

It sounds like your DMs was a pretty, vengeful fuck that needs to be hit with a train full of trains.

But Kareemna was never the same afterwards and eventually stopped playing, a short while later.

Gee, I wonder why?

What we did not know and did not find out until a while later was that the girl who was playing Kareemna was also being raped by her father, who was playing as the party's evoker, and this had been going on since age 12 or younger.

So how did you guys find out about this? What happened to the girl in question?

It was an ironic tragedy, and I imagine that even to this day the DM still feels some guilt over orchestrating this fantasy which so closely mirrored the nightmare that was Kareemna's life.

No one ever talked about this ever again? Really?

[Midnight_v]

The girl went on join the army, the father got 3 consecutive life sentances for the lifelong molestation of his 3 children, 2 girls and a boy.
I met this girl after but this story didn't get relayed to me till years later.
*shrug* We're all adults now and that was still like a floor dropping event.

I do think that it's reasonable, when DMing for a 16 year old girl and her father, to never have said girl's character raped by demons. In fact, I think it's probably fair to extend that to all situations in which a minor is gaming with a parent.

Yeah thats fucking absolutley true and I would've called on that shit if I'd been there.

However, that is still a fallacy and one girl's misfortune does not define the entirety of the gaming community.

Also true, in some way. . . Man... but, what the fuck Molchio?

[Ganbare Gincun]

The girl went on join the army, the father got 3 consecutive life sentances for the lifelong molestation of his 3 children, 2 girls and a boy.

I'm glad to hear that she went on to do something constructive with her life instead of becoming a drug addict or the like. I hope that the other victims were also able to rebuild their lives.

And the Dad? If he's in an American prison, that dude's getting raped in prison every day until the day he dies. Guaranteed.

However, that is still a fallacy and one girl's misfortune does not define the entirety of the gaming community.

Also true, in some way. . . Man... but, what the fuck Molchio?

I guess he's a big fan of Rape As Drama?

[Midnight_v]

I guess he's a big fan of Rape As Drama?

I refuse to click that as I suspect it's a link to Tvtropes and fuck you for trying to steal 3 hours of my life.

Seriously though I read gauntlygrym and noticed the female lead had this bullshit paradigm

[Molochio]

@CatharzGodfoot: Your views of what is reasonable when DMing for a 16 year old girl and her father, while noble, are still YOUR views and morality sometimes varies wildly from person to person, and culture to culture.
It may, in fact, not even exist in terms you would appreciate, rendering your views unfit for blanket application to all gaming circles.

In this particular instance, the DM asked the father's permission first before she went forward, much in the way one might ask if it's okay to take a minor to a rated R movie, and the father granted it.

Thus, to the parties involved, it seemed a reasonable thing.

[Midnight_v]

... except the father happened to be...

I don't think that line of reasoning really works.

[fectin]

I refuse to click that as I suspect it's a link to Tvtropes and fuck you for trying to steal 3 hours of my life. :tongue:

+1. Seriously.

[Molochio]

@Ganbare Gincun: The DM was indeed as vengeful as she is made to sound, but not monstrous. I'm certain she would have chosen another way to extract her vengeance had she been aware of what was going on away from the table.

When the girl turned 18 she and her siblings came out with the truth and decided to turn their father over to justice, which was done. The details that Midnight filled in are accurate.

Needless to say, the matter has never been forgotten.

As from me, I do not employ the "Rape as Drama" trope in my DM style.
I find it more fulfilling to immerse PCs in combat against endless waves of beast men.
However, if someone wishes to use rape, murder, torture, or some other twisted means to add depth and horror to their story, I believe they should have the option to do so.

[Molochio]

@Midnight_v: Reasonable procedures were followed - Ask permission of parent to expose a minor to a rated R experience before doing so.

This may appear to fail because the parent in question was a psychotic sexual deviant preying upon his own children but he was an exception to the rule and not the majority of parental archetypes.
Were it otherwise, asking permission of the parent or guardian before exposing a minor to a rated R experience would not be the accepted norm.

[Starmaker]

Reasonable procedures were followed - Ask permission of parent to expose a minor to a rated R experience before doing so.

Reasonable procedure is asking permission of a player before subjecting him/her to an out-of-genre experience. Vengeful fucks can't be reasonable.

[Molochio]

@Starmaker: The DM's premeditated scheme to have her PC dragged to hell and brutally raped by demons was indeed an act of vengeance but it was nonetheless conducted in a reasonable manner given the limited information she had at her disposal.

Even had she smilingly asked Kareemna's player, "May I subject your character an out-of-genre experience?" the player would have most certainly said yes, as she was very fond of our DM and the end result would have been the same.

[RobbyPants]

Why are you apologizing for this DM so much? Yes, this particular story has some very unusual circumstances, but in general, you're best off just not bringing rape into D&D. It's too likely to make the game unfun, and that's why we all sit around the table each week.

Sure, D&D has lots of unpleasant things in it, like murder, but that's part and parcel to the game (playing homicidal maniacs and adrenaline junkies masquerading as heroes). People know this coming into the game. The problem with rape is that you (likely) have no idea whether or not anyone at your table is a victim of rape. Also, rape carries a lot of emotional baggage with it.

Seriously: just don't bring it into the game, and stop defending the DM's bad judgment.

[Molochio]

@RobbyPants: I am not apologizing for my DM's choice to run the demon rape saga that she so chose. My interest rests in making sure this style of game is viewed from a pragmatic and logical standpoint, devoid of personal morality based bias and emotional sentiment.

Though I do concede your point that it has the potential to make a game no longer enjoyable for some people.
Of all the ways she could have chosen to punish her PCs, this was probably among the most poor. A pity, really, since she employed it so commonly.

In fact, Kareemna was the last character to be brutally raped by demons.
All the other PCs had been captured and violated a year earlier by mutated inbred farmers seeking to save their family line from further corruption.

I suppose there is something fundamentally flawed about a DM who is so utterly fixated on brutally raping her PCs when they cause her displeasure.

[Ganbare Gincun]

In fact, Kareemna was the last character to be brutally raped by demons.
All the other PCs had been captured and violated a year earlier by mutated inbred farmers seeking to save their family line from further corruption.

I suppose there is something fundamentally flawed about a DM who is so utterly fixated on brutally raping her PCs when they cause her displeasure.

What a fucked up game. Your DM sounds like a sick fuck. And your ardent defense of engaging in the Gygaxian rape of PCs doesn't make you look much better.

[Molochio]

I neither defend nor condemn the level of depravity a DM chooses to use. I speak on the pros and cons of various DM styles as a logical observer and only in that capacity.

[RobbyPants]

I suppose there is something fundamentally flawed about a DM who is so utterly fixated on brutally raping her PCs when they cause her displeasure.

Yeah. Given that it's often employed as a way to exert control over the victim, I think it speaks volumes.

[Midnight_v]

In fact, Kareemna was the last character to be brutally raped by demons.
All the other PCs had been captured and violated a year earlier by mutated inbred farmers seeking to save their family line from further corruption.

I suppose there is something fundamentally flawed about a DM who is so utterly fixated on brutally raping her PCs when they cause her displeasure.

What a fucked up game. Your DM sounds like a sick fuck. And your ardent defense of engaging in the Gygaxian rape of PCs doesn't make you look much better.

Anybody's gonna defend someone the know personally, its human training. I'm pretty sure thats some kinda meme being described there "playing banjos" or whatever. Pathfinder did it to recently but it was disgusting inbred ogres in the runelord campaign, but yeah... "control".
I get really annoyed when I hear self proclaimed dm's talk about things like "needing to bring the pc's in line" or whatever. I've played in that particular womans game once or twice... never got raped though, I wouldn't have stood for that shit at all.

You wanna know what's really fucked up about this... She had a mad on about "Evil" and outright refused several of my characters on that basis. Of course I've never even heard any of this "in game" rape fetish?
Given the backdrop of what was happening in real life, no fuck that, no raping the PC'S AT ALL. I'm just of a mind to think there should never be a sexual encounter in a D&D game ever.

[Molochio]

I recall two guys in particular who were rumoured to be the best GMs of Call of Cthulhu and Wraith the Oblivion respectively (heretofore referred as CthuFail and Wraithshit)

So I attended one of CthuFails sessions. I was kind of eexcitred, because he is the editor of a major gaming magazine I grew up with in Greece and he is said to posses high levels of cthulawesome in his blood. In fact, there were actual posts on the local gamin store;s billboard for vacancies in his campaign.

So I got to participate in oneof his sessions and I distinctly recall that the man was cutting corners in his descriptions, showing us the mythos beasties straight from the book, rendering the horror of their presence moot. The game was slow, full of creepy remarks toward the girls in the table (I swear to god, every NPC was trying to grope them) and the session ended with me dying a horrible horrible death, ass raped by Shub Niggurath sex cultists, without a chance to blow my brains out, because they were inhumanly fast.

The girls died similarly, but he described their deaths as a sensation akin to reaching Nirvana.

Wraithshits session was another cup of tea. I wanted to see what the oWod was like and Wraith in particular, because I kinda thought the Shade mechanic was awesome (Shade is the darker side of yourself who tries to corrupt you and is roleplayed by someone else in the table). His best friend was assgined as my Shade. I played a pregen, a dead rapist, who tried to make up too late in his life for his crimes. My Shade was trying to coerce me to ecto-rape his ex, who was playing with us at the table and when I finally decided to complain, Wraithshit told me that it was valid shade roleplaying. I stayed up until the point where the wraith of a destroyed Tyrannosaurus-bot stomped a central square in athens.

[Cynic]

We roleplay to escape the abusive parts of life and to emulate the wonderful parts of life.

It is never a kosher choice to make in a game. You will almost never see a player say something along the lines of "Hey, I see a girl/guy there that I fancy. SInce they aren't interested in me, I shall abuse them in a vindictive way."

DMs have always felt that they can lord it over a player.

We already glorify some aspects of life that we don't normally attempt ourselves. Murder, assasination, deceit, and brutal combat are deemed okay because they don't hurt people (for the most part) and often have the role of a catharsis for one's psyche.

However when the actions taken within a game have a direct negative impact to the psyche, I have always believed that these should be shied away from. Rape, abuse, denigration are not something that a roleplaying experience should ever be about.

It might sound funny to say, oh wait, you've made a pact with devils and because of this, you are fucked violently up the ass. This is against your will. THe player might smile or join the group laughter. But does it make them feel good? A role playing experience just like any other sport or game experience is about having fun. When you put someone down or force experiences upon them, well that's just unacceptable, atrocious, and completely, utterly fucked up.

--

There needs to be "the ethics of d&d."

[Orion]

Man, if I'd seen this thread earlier I'd have had much less patience with Moloch. Either he has no sense of boundaries and manners, or he's a disgust troll.

Seriously, it's one thing to tell this story, another to tell it in a weird, half-gloating way with affected "storyteller" idioms and no clear condemnation.

[Molochio]

Man, if I'd seen this thread earlier I'd have had much less patience with Moloch. Either he has no sense of boundaries and manners, or he's a disgust troll.

Seriously, it's one thing to tell this story, another to tell it in a weird, half-gloating way with affected "storyteller" idioms and no clear condemnation.

Condemnation?

There is a saying by a man renowned for his wisdom and virtue on that subject matter.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Your perception of my story telling is your own. Do not presume to apply it unto me as a form of absolute. I told a story of real events that took place and the result of them. That is all.