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Post by Username17 »

Fatum wrote:Uh, since when is Tuva its own country? Or Belorussia renamed Ruthenia?
Since I decided to do that. Although Ruthenia is actually modern day Ukraine. The capital of Ruthenia has always been Kiev. Belorussian nationalists I've talked to would rename their country "Lithuania" if those damned Lithuanians hadn't stolen the name (seriously).

The Russian Federation gains and loses pieces constantly in the Shadowrun timeline. Belarus, Ukraine, Chechnya, and even Poland have all been called out as being in or out of the Russian Federation at one time or another. So since the last official word on the subject that I am willing to designate as such (Shadows of Asia) is ten years old, I literally just randomly tossed some border republics into or out of the Federation when I advanced the timeline.

So Poland, Ukraine (now Ruthenia, presumably to make historical claims on sections of Belarus, Poland, and Slovakia), and Tuva all exist as independent states. But Chechnya, Estonia, Belarus, and Latvia all don't.

Also, you'd think that a magocratic Yakut society'd have Magic a bit higher.
As far as I know, they don't have any draconic-style super magic anywhere and just have a lot of magic using owls and stuff. That might be a high C, but it's still a C unless and until you can threaten someone with the Wild Hunt or something similar.

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Post by RiotGearEpsilon »

Normally, Frank, your work all has a very distinctive 'Frank' voice. The Cambodian Analysis does not. Kudos.
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Post by RobbyPants »

RiotGearEpsilon wrote:Normally, Frank, your work all has a very distinctive 'Frank' voice. The Cambodian Analysis does not. Kudos.
Might this have something to do with it?
FrankTrollman wrote:Posted by: OrbSpider
...or am I reading that wrong? I guess I assumed Frank was posting it here on OrbSpider's behalf.
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Post by Username17 »

Orb Spider is a fictional character who is a SysOp on the Morgue. The Morgue is a fictional shadowrunner/mercenary data archive and message board hosted in Kuala Lumpur.

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Post by RobbyPants »

Never mind, then.
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Post by Fatum »

FrankTrollman wrote: The original 1989 timeline called for Eurowars between NATO and the Soviet Union in the 2030s. Obviously that's been backpedaled
Nope, it hasn't, really. The First Euro War, the Russo-European one, still happened in the new sources. And it doesn't in any way contradict the established following fluff, as far as I am aware (though frankly, the whole plot hardly makes any sense to me. Watch it (or see the timeline in my draft or here, where sources are noted): as Russia conquers Belarus and Ukraine, Poland moves its forces to occupy Grodno and other regions, claiming to "help refugees". Then, when the Border Wars are over for a time, with Russian victory, after an alleged false-flag provocation, Russia invades Poland (which makes sense, totally), crushes its army and installs its own government. Fine so far. Then, it immediately moves to attack... everyone. And that kinda leaves me puzzled - the only believable explanation was suggested by one of my players, being that the 200k troops Russia sent to Poland as per SoA couldn't physically fit in the country, and just had to surge westward still).
FrankTrollman wrote: it has been variously presented as there being Neo-Soviets and an aggressively imperialistic regime of Russian kleptocrats like Putin and co.. Obviously those ideas are not completely incompatible
See, after the First Euro War democrats came to power in Russia (DRA party). They lasted about seven years, with results catastrophic. So yeah, National Soviet Reconstructionists took over from then on. Now, there's a non-obvious thing here, - National Supreme Soviet is the name of the Russian supreme governmental body. "Soviet" is used as a noun, not an adjective, and means "council". That is - while the Reconstructionists have neo-soviet leanings, they are not renaming Russia into the Soviet Union, not restoring USSR as it was politically or economically or anything. They are just ultra-nationalists playing on "it was so much better back then" vibe.
FrankTrollman wrote: It literally calls for the existence of a fucking Soviet Empire shooting people in the Eurozone and then takes that back and then reinstates it and takes it back again.
I see it less controversial than first appears. Trying to pull an Iron Curtain was not really a viable policy even for the Soviet Union, even with half the Europe at its heel; it's much less a viable strategy in the Sixth World, especially with Siberian resources lost. Yeah, sure, Russia hasn't been properly balkanized, but playing the world's only superpower isn't working for it any better than it does for US in RL.
So the way I picture it is yes, the fucking evil Soviet Empire shooting people in the Eurozone exists; it's not that powerful, not that totalitarian (cause seriously, WMA, Sixth World, come on) (that is, not that Soviet politically and economically), and not as important as it wants everyone to believe (that is, not that Empire).

FrankTrollman wrote: [Tuva is its own country] Since I decided to do that. Although Ruthenia is actually modern day Ukraine. The capital of Ruthenia has always been Kiev. Belorussian nationalists I've talked to would rename their country "Lithuania" if those damned Lithuanians hadn't stolen the name (seriously).
I believe the Trans-Siberian railroad is going through Tuva. Besides, the whole Transsib line would be swarming with Russian troops, so it's kinda hard to claim independence with that kind of military presence.
Uh, the ominous Ukrainian corp is called "Ukraina Bioenergetika". 6WA lists Belarus and Ukraine among Russian neighbors. Or are you not supporting continuity with SR4E materials?
FrankTrollman wrote: The Russian Federation gains and loses pieces constantly in the Shadowrun timeline.
Russia is called "Russian Federation" maybe once in the books I've read (and it was in some 4E book, too, if I recall). So in my draft, I just cal it "Russia", as it was called in every other solid source on it I've found.
Makes sense for an ultranationalist state, since the whole federative structure is supposed to help represent the interests of the national minorities.
FrankTrollman wrote:Belarus, Ukraine, Chechnya, and even Poland have all been called out as being in or out of the Russian Federation at one time or another.
Uh, what? Arguably, Belarus and Ukraine (as well as the Baltic states) were conquered for a time as a result of the first round of the Border Wars, but I haven't seen that explicitly stated, much less anything about them being made a part of Russia itself.
Similarly, I don't recall anything on Chechnya getting independence, even limited one, like it did in RL - there were mentions of trouble on the Caucasus, but as per SoA, it was just brutally repressed. Where in the books have you seen the info on it being independent?
Again, Poland was about as much a part of Russia in SR timeline as Eastern Germany or other Warsaw Pact states were a part of Soviet Union in RL. As in - it wasn't, really, although it wasn't politically independent, either.
FrankTrollman wrote: So Poland, Ukraine (now Ruthenia, presumably to make historical claims on sections of Belarus, Poland, and Slovakia), and Tuva all exist as independent states. But Chechnya, Estonia, Belarus, and Latvia all don't.
Uh, why don't the Baltic states? They got their independence after the Nightwraith strike, at the end of the first Euro War.
FrankTrollman wrote: As far as I know, they [the Yakuts] don't have any draconic-style super magic anywhere and just have a lot of magic using owls and stuff. That might be a high C, but it's still a C unless and until you can threaten someone with the Wild Hunt or something similar.
Well, in Target: Smuggler Havens the shadowtalkers posted about how the only reason Yakut got its independence was Ghost Dance(-level) magic. But then other shadowtalkers argue that point.
Take that as you will, but I can't see any way for that to work out, though, just like the earlier deal with the NAN and the Chukchi Peninsula.


Oh, also, added a bunch more stuff into the Game Info chapter.
Last edited by Fatum on Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Fatum wrote: Now, there's a non-obvious thing here, - National Supreme Soviet is the name of the Russian supreme governmental body. "Soviet" is used as a noun, not an adjective, and means "council". That is - while the Reconstructionists have neo-soviet leanings, they are not renaming Russia into the Soviet Union, not restoring USSR as it was politically or economically or anything. They are just ultra-nationalists playing on "it was so much better back then" vibe.
That's probably the best retcon you can do, and what I'd do myself. But the original stuff really did talk about the Soviet Union because it was 1989 and that's how people thought back then.
I believe the Trans-Siberian railroad is going through Tuva. Besides, the whole Transsib line would be swarming with Russian troops, so it's kinda hard to claim independence with that kind of military presence.
You can make that argument for every part of the Russian empire though. And yet, things still break out from time to time. If the borders were static for 10 yars, that would be unrealistic. And having Chechnya or Dagestan break free is boring and over used. There's an entire incredibly powerful Greater Turkestan right next door that considers itself to be blood relations with the Tuvan people. It could totally happen, especially as we have no idea how long this process has been going on - Tuva has been Tera Incognita for the entire run.
Uh, the ominous Ukrainian corp is called "Ukraina Bioenergetika".
That doesn't mean anything. CBS stands for "Columbian Broadcasting System", because "Columbia" is another name for "America". But that doesn't mean that "Columbia" is the official name of the country. That's ironically the name of a completely different country (which of course is also in America and equally entitled to the name "Columbia"). Ukraine could lay claim to being "Rurikia", or "The Hetmanate", or "Ruthenia", "Galicia", or "The Directory". Heck, if those names weren't already taken they could call themselves Poland, Lithuania, or The Russian Empire. There are living Ukrainians right now who specifically advocate all of those name changes.
6WA lists Belarus and Ukraine among Russian neighbors. Or are you not supporting continuity with SR4E materials?
6WA isn't even compatible with itself. Not only is their map insulting (especially in Africa), but it doesn't even include things from its own text. The 6WA map doesn't include the Naga Kingdom at all, and the entire Falc region is simply not drawn into Czechia despite being written about explicitly in the text. I am not only ignoring 6WA, but I am laughing while doing so. Seriously, it feels great.
Russia is called "Russian Federation" maybe once in the books I've read (and it was in some 4E book, too, if I recall). So in my draft, I just cal it "Russia"
Sure. I have it as "Russia" in the big chart, but mostly because I haven't been putting country names in long form.

FrankTrollman wrote: So Poland, Ukraine (now Ruthenia, presumably to make historical claims on sections of Belarus, Poland, and Slovakia), and Tuva all exist as independent states. But Chechnya, Estonia, Belarus, and Latvia all don't.
Uh, why don't the Baltic states? They got their independence after the Nightwraith strike, at the end of the first Euro War.
The short answer is that in our modern age a new country rises or falls every year and if you don't shuffle some boundaries and move some countries around after a 10 year siesta it makes things look incredibly static.

The longer answer is that Russia has been bringing crushing force Westward for decades, and if they didn't annex something between them and Poland during the interim it would look really sad. Also we're looking at a resurgent Lithuania, so anything that the Russians don't absorb on that end would be eaten by Lithuania. Part or all of Estonia may have joined The Scandinavian Union, because they want to do that now.

As an aside: does it bother anyone else that the country was officially designated the Scandinavian Union instead of the Nordic Union? It has Finland in it. Ah well, minor gripes.

As for why Russia decided to attack Germany and such, I think it is largely up to bad writing and retconning stuff. In 1989 it was originally written as the Soviet Union invading from East Germany. In Shadows of Europe it was retconned to Russia invading into East Germany, which of course is a totally different and less excusable thing. My suggestion would be to say that the Great Iberian Jihad happened simultaneously and was in fact part of the Eurowar. That is, Russia thought they could retake all the Warsaw regions because NATO had collapsed and Europe was locked in a life-and-death struggle against Islamic extremists from North Africa. Shadows of Europe never gives an actual start date for that Jihad.

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Post by Fatum »

FrankTrollman wrote: That's probably the best retcon you can do, and what I'd do myself. But the original stuff really did talk about the Soviet Union because it was 1989 and that's how people thought back then.
Well, can't argue here - I got into tabletop Shadowrun when it was well into the fourth edition, and I only have books from as early as the second edition anyway.
But the retcon is not mine, it's from 3E books, mostly, from the ultranationalism to the NSS platform.
FrankTrollman wrote: You can make that argument for every part of the Russian empire though. And yet, things still break out from time to time.
Uh, again - there's a slow-going war with Yakut going there. When you have actual combat-hardened troops on your soil, you can't just wave goodbye - and frankly, in the 60ies or the 70ies gaining independence is times harder than in the earlier age, since noone is that much surprised by magic any more.
FrankTrollman wrote: If the borders were static for 10 yars, that would be unrealistic. And having Chechnya or Dagestan break free is boring and over used.
Has NA changed much since 2050, if you mean "by SR logic" by that "unrealistic". Has Russian Federation changed much since 1991, if you mean "by RL logic"?
FrankTrollman wrote: There's an entire incredibly powerful Greater Turkestan right next door that considers itself to be blood relations with the Tuvan people. It could totally happen, especially as we have no idea how long this process has been going on - Tuva has been Tera Incognita for the entire run.
Well, yeah, it could possibly happen. But that'd end in an all-out war, since Russia can't afford to lose the Transsib; most likely with nukes, too.
FrankTrollman wrote: Ukraine could lay claim to being "Rurikia", or "The Hetmanate", or "Ruthenia", "Galicia", or "The Directory". Heck, if those names weren't already taken they could call themselves Poland, Lithuania, or The Russian Empire. There are living Ukrainians right now who specifically advocate all of those name changes.

You're friends with all kinds of weird people.
Also, Ukraine could possibly claim to be many things, but in the published SR stuff so far it's still Ukraine, just like Belarus is Belarus.
FrankTrollman wrote: I am not only ignoring 6WA, but I am laughing while doing so. Seriously, it feels great.

I feel that it's an incredibly bad idea; just like ignoring War! itself. We can't work on our own if we want the results of our work to be usable for everyone; thus wollens-nollens I feel we must support CGL materials, with maybe suggested corrections to the most glaring errors. Otherwise, only a handful of dedicated fans will be able to use our works, and do we really want that?
FrankTrollman wrote: Sure. I have it as "Russia" in the big chart, but mostly because I haven't been putting country names in long form.

See, there's a difference between "Russia" and "Russian Federation", and it's the actual federative structure. I see nothing hinting at it in the SR stuff I've read. For all I see, SR Russia is a monolithic state.
FrankTrollman wrote: The short answer is that in our modern age a new country rises or falls every year and if you don't shuffle some boundaries and move some countries around after a 10 year siesta it makes things look incredibly static.
In Europe? Uhhhh...
FrankTrollman wrote: The longer answer is that Russia has been bringing crushing force Westward for decades, and if they didn't annex something between them and Poland during the interim it would look really sad.
Russia kinda had their hands full with Poland. Not just full, it was defeated there.
Frankly, I wrote a long-winded story of how Russia pulled from Poland without SK losing influence in the NSS, the Red Army losing face, or anything else drastic. Then dumpshock bros pointed out the canon story of it in System Failure.
And I just went "lol what".
FrankTrollman wrote: As for why Russia decided to attack Germany and such, I think it is largely up to bad writing and retconning stuff. In 1989 it was originally written as the Soviet Union invading from East Germany. In Shadows of Europe it was retconned to Russia invading into East Germany, which of course is a totally different and less excusable thing.
Still doesn't make much more sense - what was there that Russia lacked hard enough to start a full-scale war? At least Yakut or TPA have oil worth starting a fight for.
FrankTrollman wrote: My suggestion would be to say that the Great Iberian Jihad happened simultaneously and was in fact part of the Eurowar. That is, Russia thought they could retake all the Warsaw regions because NATO had collapsed and Europe was locked in a life-and-death struggle against Islamic extremists from North Africa.
Actually, what happened to NATO in SR timeline? US wasn't there to put much weight behind it any more, but what about the others?
Also, apropos to international organizations: I love how everyone but Russia is a member of UN. In my draft, Russia's using that to violate international treaties we're not a part of any longer.
FrankTrollman wrote: Shadows of Europe never gives an actual start date for that Jihad.
Uh, 2034. It's called the Second Euro War for a reason.
Last edited by Fatum on Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Fatum wrote:Has NA changed much since 2050?
Yes. CFS became the Saito Protectorate and then became the CFS again, except that it was 1/3 the size, because the PCC had swallowed the Southern bits. The PCC also swallowed Ute whole. The Salish-Sidhe Council ate Tsimshian.

So two new country declarations and two countries straight up removed from the map. And that's not even counting th revolution in Tir Tairngire, because that was never explained and I literally don't know if that mad a new country or not. Also there were various border shufflings and there was an uprising in Yucatan that came to an official end without actually creating a new country.

And Chicago got destroyed. And Aztlan lost their section of Denver. And a dragon was president of UCAS, and you know... stuff happened. But bottom line is that there are a lot less countries in North America than in Europe, and they still get about one country wiped off the map per decade. And that's not counting the Caribbean, where various islands joined and left the League and even the people in the book don't seem to care. That's like North America's Balkans: where everyone tries to pretend it's not even part of the continent.

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Post by Lokathor »

FrankTrollman wrote:Electrical Weapons
...Electrical weapons do Normal damage (which is not very effective against non-living targets), but a susceptible target must resist damage a second time, with the second soak causing no actual damage but paralyzing the target for a number of rounds equal to the amount of wound boxes that would have been filled in.
Too much WoD for you Frank, in SR we're using Stun and Lethal damage, remember?
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Lokathor wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Electrical Weapons
...Electrical weapons do Normal damage (which is not very effective against non-living targets), but a susceptible target must resist damage a second time, with the second soak causing no actual damage but paralyzing the target for a number of rounds equal to the amount of wound boxes that would have been filled in.
Too much WoD for you Frank, in SR we're using Stun and Lethal damage, remember?
FrankTrollman wrote:Damage and Injury
The bigger they are, the bigger a gun it takes to make them fall.

Shadowrun 4th edition experimented with a non-proportional damage system. That is, a box of injury was supposed to represent a similar amount of damage on a troll as it was on an elf – like a hit point in Dungeons & Dragons. And yes, this worked sort of OK for elves and trolls, but it completely falls apart when we deal with dogs and war machines. Things outside the human scale simply do not fit in such a system, and they never will. A small dog should drop from a single pistol shot, a light tank should be able to take two LAV rockets with serious damage. But what can be done about that? The answer is fortunately found in the mechanics of previous editions of Shadowrun: Proportional Damage. That is, when the game generates “Moderate” or “Serious” Injury, that Injury is relative to the target. A moderate injury to a small dog might have been inflicted by a sharp kick, while a moderate injury to a troll might have been inflicted with a rifle, and a moderate injury to an anthromorph combat vehicle might have been inflicted by an assault cannon. But the game generates Moderate Injury after comparing damage to soak, and we fill in the same number of boxes in every case. And that is out of the same total number of boxes in every case as well.

The way this works is that we have in all cases 10 injury boxes. Your hacker has 10 injury boxes, your troll street samurai has 10 injury boxes, your Vietnamese Amphibious Troop Transport has 10 injury boxes. If it becomes important how tough a crow or a rat is – they also have 10 injury boxes. And when injuries occur, we fill them out in distinct amounts based on what kind of Injury they are. Injuries can be Light (one box), Moderate (3 boxes), Serious (6 boxes), Incapacitating (10 boxes), or Deadly (10 boxes + dying). Here's how that looks:

Uninjured:
LMSI
XXXXXXXXXX

Light Wound:
LMSI
XXXXXXXXXX

Moderate Wound:
LMSI
XXXXXXXXXX

Serious Wound:
LMSI
XXXXXXXXXX

Incapacitation:
LMSI
XXXXXXXXXX

But how do we determine whether an Injury should be Light or Serious? We compare it to a chart. Or, if you don't want to look up the chart, every point of unsoaked damage makes the injury one level bigger. Or if you're super into math, each greater injury is the next triangular number of filled in boxes. Or if you're autistically into math, you fill in the number of unsoaked damage times one more than the number of unsoaked damage divided by 2 in boxes out of your 10 total. Anyway, we make our soak roll as normal, and subtract the hits from the incoming damage. And the more incoming damage is left, the bigger an injury we actually suffer:
Unsoaked Damage:Injury Type:Boxes Filled:
0 (or less)None0
1Light1
2Moderate3
3Serious6
4Incapacitating10
5+Deadly10*

  • *: Also, you are dying
That's a start. But unfortunately, in order to get things onto that scale, we're going to have to rewrite the input numbers for armor, weapons, vehicles, and critters. After all, with the proportional system, increasing damage by 5 is the entire difference between one shotting an opponent and bouncing off their armor (or manly chest, as appropriate). This allows us to get rid of all the silly stuff like missiles that do 120 damage, but it also means that we have to rewrite those inputs to make things work. So let's get started on that.

Optional Rule: Instant Death
You may want to institute a system for killing creatures outright with massive damage. To do this, you set a “death threshold”. That is, a number of unsoaked damage from an attack where you do not bother to keep track of a character dying and simply declare them dead. Maybe their head gets pulped like Scanners, or they get multipart shredded. But in any case, it's pretty clear that even medicine in the 2070s cannot save them. Rather unsurprisingly, the lower you set this threshold, the more often it will happen and the deadlier combat will be. If you have characters instantly die with 6 damage, in-combat instant death will happen fairly often, while if you have characters die with 9 unsoaked damage it will be almost unheard of. How deadly you want your own game is an open question.
Easy to miss back on page 11.


Anyway, I only just noticed the spirit and armor stuff. Looks neat.

And apparently spoilers don't nest properly.
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Post by Username17 »

Yeah, Physical and Stun are bullshit because spells are divided into Physical and Mana. Having Powerball be a Physical Physical Area Combat Spell is needlessly confusing. Physical Lethal Area Combat Spell is much clearer.

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Post by Lokathor »

No I read all that Catharz, my point was that he had put down shock weapons as dealing Normal instead of Stun damage. Normal damage is what AWOD calls it, not what SR calls it.

But yeah, I agree with Stun/Lethal in SR, and having Physical Stun and Physical Lethal spells and so on.
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Post by Fatum »

I've pinged fexes@deviantart, and he's willing to help us with the maps.
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Post by Kot »

The whole SR4 rules are basically WoD on d6's. And even for me dividing damage into stun/physical was a bit weird. Especially since taking a beating would be 'stun', even if all those bruises are indeed physical...
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Post by Katana-sr »

Just found this project after loosing track of it in the dumpshock forums. I'm very interested in the alternate firearm rules with recoil penalties based on strength.
I'm a bit confused by the tables however - seems like recoil compensators now should work by decreasing the strength needed for handling the weapon (as evidenced by the Hammerli entry and other), but not all weapons with recoil compensators in the original listings have a reduced strength requirement compared to the standard value for a weapon of that class. Is this intentional? Couldn't find anything specific about recoil compensators like gas-vents in the thread.

Also, i presume narrow autofire should now work by increasing the damage value and strength requirement of the weapon (but if base damage of the weapon does not exceed hardened armor, autofire still does not do any damage).

With the new damage system, increasing damage by 1 per burst level (short,long,full) seems fitting. For strength req, +1 per burst and level and additional burst in a round could work, but would probably require rebalancing of recoil compensators.
Any thoughts on this yet?
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Post by Username17 »

Katana-sr wrote:Just found this project after loosing track of it in the dumpshock forums. I'm very interested in the alternate firearm rules with recoil penalties based on strength.
I'm a bit confused by the tables however - seems like recoil compensators now should work by decreasing the strength needed for handling the weapon (as evidenced by the Hammerli entry and other), but not all weapons with recoil compensators in the original listings have a reduced strength requirement compared to the standard value for a weapon of that class. Is this intentional? Couldn't find anything specific about recoil compensators like gas-vents in the thread.
The Gas Vents are no longer numbered 1-4. A "Gas Vent System" is applied in the firing mode modifier, reducing the modifier for firing in burst fire and full auto mode.

The original rules for autofire hit you the same recoil modifier when firing .22 ammunition and .50BMG ammunition. You could fire an anti material round out of a zip gun and suffer no recoil at all because that's SS, and if you fired a gatling marker dart launcher for some reason, recoil would take all your dice away. It's silly. And one of the ways that writers have gotten around that is to hand out recoil modifiers for things that are frankly silly, like the folding stock (yes, really).

So in converting to a strength based recoil system, I've had to go through all the weapons and give a gut analysis of what the writers were trying to get at when they assigned various recoil numbers to different weapons. The Ares Vigorous Assault Cannon is supposed to be extremely hard to use and kick like a mule because it has no recoil compensation. But since it's a single shot weapon, that has historically just been flavor text. The White Knight has a bunch of integral recoil compensation, but I happen to know that that was just written so that people could fire it in automatic mode at all.

That being said, the weapon list is super long, and I would be really surprised if I didn't or won't make some big mistakes. Some of them might be caused by me mistaking one weapon for another, and some might seriously just be typos. Here's what a section of the chart looks like when I'm writing it:

Code: Select all

[row]Remington 950[col]6[col]-3[col]SS[col]5 (m)[col]Longarms (Rifles)[col]4[col]4R[col]675¥ 
[row]AZT 577 T-Rex[col]7[col]-2[col]SS[col]4 (m)[col]Longarms (Rifles)
Heavy Weapons (Assault Cannon)[col]6[col]12R[col]2400¥ 
[mrow]Sniper Rifles
[mrow]Weapon Name[mcol]Damage[mcol]AP[mcol]Mode[mcol]Ammo[mcol]Skill[mcol]Strength[mcol]Availability[mcol]Cost
[row]Ares Desert Strike[col]5[col]-3[col]SA[col]14 (c)[col]Longarms (Rifles)[col]5[col]10F[col]3350¥
[row]Barrett Model 121[col]6[col]-4[col]SA[col]14 (c)[col]Longarms (Rifles)[col]6[col]18F[col]9000¥
[row]CZW Ostřelovač[col]6[col]-3[col]SA[col]12 (c)[col]Longarms (Rifles)[col]6[col]16F[col]6500¥
[row]HK PSG Enforcer[col]4[col]-3[col]SA[col]2 x 12 (c)[col]Longarms (Rifles)[col]4[col]12F[col]4800¥
[row]Ranger Arms SM4[col]5[col]-4[col]SA[col]15 (c)[col]Longarms (Rifles)[col]4[col]16F[col]6200¥
[row]Walther MA-2100[col]4[col]-3[col]SA[col]10 (m)[col]Longarms (Rifles)[col]5[col]10F[col]5000¥
[mrow]Shotguns
[mrow]Weapon Name[mcol]Damage[mcol]AP[mcol]Mode[mcol]Ammo[mcol]Skill[mcol]Strength[mcol]Availability[mcol]Cost
[row]Auto-Assault 16[col]5[col]-1[col]SA/BF/FA[col]32 (d)[col]Longarms (Shotguns)[col]4[col]18R[col]8000¥ 
[row]Boyd & Richards Desperado[col]5[col]-1[col]SS[col]5 (m)[col]Longarms (Shotguns)[col]4[col]10R[col]1700¥

Seriously, it's like looking at the Matrix. So if you notice an error, I'd love for you to point it out to me.
Also, i presume narrow autofire should now work by increasing the damage value and strength requirement of the weapon (but if base damage of the weapon does not exceed hardened armor, autofire still does not do any damage).
New Autofire gives you dicepool bonuses on your attack roll and higher strength requirements. On average that works out to about +1 damage for a burst, with a slightly better chance of hitting at all if you can hold onto it.

-Username17
Katana-sr
NPC
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:22 am

Post by Katana-sr »

Sounds great, this can also account for not hitting with all bullets in a burst.
Based on my experience from firearms in real life, I've found that stocks do help quite a bit with recoil, even a folding one. I used assault rifles with folding stocks and fixed stocks and light machine guns with fixed stocks. On the other hand, using these stocks is pretty much required for shooting these weapons in an accurate manner.

I've looked at the tables based on the following assumptions:

1.folding or rigid stocks and electronic firing don't give recoil compensation
2.Recoil reduction systems other than gas vents are handled differently, lowering the strength req. of the weapon (this is evidenced by some of your entries)
3.Flavor text about recoil should be accounted for

4.Base damage codes:
hold-out, light pistol, machine pistol, submachine gun: 3
heavy pistol, carbines, assault rifle: 4

5.Base strength req.:
hold-out: 4
light pistol, smg: 2
heavy pistol, machine pistol, carbine: 3
assault rifle: 2
battle rifle: 4
Shotgun: 4
LMG: 4
MMG: 5
HMG: 6

sniper, sport rifle: varies, no base

6. rules for gas vent systems, bipods, hip pads, tripods, etc. will follow at a later time and those weapons having them will gain some kind of bonus for autofire (e.g. tripods reducing strength req. by 4, bipods reducing strength req. by 1 or 2)

I found these problems:

----------------------------------------------------

-Mopping strength required for carrying the weapon and strength required for firing the weapon into one value does not always work well. E.g. the Ares Alpha should be very heavy but exhibit less recoil for autofire than normal assault rifles.

Hold-outs

-Morrissey Elan should prob. have strength 4, has no special recoil reduction ("shaped like an extension of the users hand" is only optical)

-Walther Palm Pistol is missing skill name (should be "Pistol (Holdout)")

-Fichetti-Tiffany Needler should have no "-" in the name

Light pistols

-SA Puzzler has increased recoil (strength 4),I'm assuming this is intentional

Machine pistols

-FN 5-7C has flavor text indicating reduced recoil ("efficient design"), should maybe have strength 2

Heavy pistols

-Ares Viper Slivergun has reduced strength rq. in comparison to other heavy pistols (has 2, should be 3), although other flechette-only weapons seem to use standard strength rq. (see Fichetti Tiffany Needler). There is no flavor text indicating reduced recoil.

-Ruger Super Warhawk should probably have higher strength rq. in order to account for bigger caliber/damage code (has 3, should be 4)

-Ruger Thunderbolt has "special chamber system" providing recoil compensation (2) in original rules, should have reduced strength req. (has 3, should be 2)

-Savalette Guardian has "recoil reducing design" (1 point rc), should have reduced strength req to be in line with FN Praetor submachine gun, which gets reduced strength req. from a "special chamber system". (See Ruger Thunderbolt) (has 3, should be 2)

Submachine guns

-Colt Cobra TZ110 is the only gas-vent weapon with special note of this in the strength req.. Should probably remove that.

-HK Urban Combat has "special internal hydraulic recoil compensation system", should have reduced strength req (has 2, should be 1). Also should not have higher damage code as it is not a Carbine (has 4, should be 3)

-Ingram SuperMach 100 has "special recoil-reduction design", should have reduced strength req or special rules for firing modes other than HV.

-Ingram Warrior-10 has increased damage code, but is not a Carbine like Colt Water Carbine and Ak-97 Carbine (has 4, should be 3)


Assault rifles

-Overall, sometimes grenade launcher/shotgun attachments seem to increase strength req., but not all the time. Ak-98, Ares Alpha, Nitama Optimum have increased strength req., but M22A3 hasn't.

-HK XM30 and Steyr AUG-CSL seem to be removed, probably intentional

-Ak97 should have increased strength req as there is no recoil compensation (has 1, should be 2)

-Ares Alpha has special chamber design providing recoil compensation, should have reduced strength req. or special rules (has 3, should be 2). The attached grenade launcher is heavier than on Ak-98 and M22A3, so maybe strength req. 3 is fitting, but the recoil compensation should still affect autofire.

-Ares HVAR should also have special rules or lower strength req. to account for recoil compensation in firing modes other than HV

-Colt M22 and M22A3 use gas vent for recoil reduction, why do they have Strength req. 1? Should be 2, especially with grenade launcher attachment

-"Semopal" vz/88V should be called "Sernopal", uses gas vent for recoil compensation, so should have strength req 2

-HK G12A3z has strength req 3 instead of 2

-Nitama Optimum should probably have two strength req values, one for rifle fire, one for shotgun fire, heavier one is used for carrying purposes


----------------------------------------------------

I don't own the rules for battle rifles and some other new stuff from War!, so I can't help you with those entries.

Edit: fixed some errors and accounted for gas vents being applied for autofire only.
Last edited by Katana-sr on Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:45 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

Thank you. I'm going to disagree with you about the Elan, because it's supposed to be designed to be fired by executives and women. So I regard the "fitted to your hand" stuff as being relevant in that case. I'm also going to disagree about the weapons that have enhanced firing modes, because in those cases the "special recoil reduction" was just a game mechanical kludge to allow you to fire those weapons at all. At -1 die/bullet, any weapon with an enhanced firing mode like HV needed special recoil reduction modifiers from nowhere to be used at all.

Other than that, yeah. I'll have the new chart up tomorrow night. I'd have it up tonight, but there is no internet I can access from my girlfriend's house.

As for stocks: I am a great believer in stocks, for hip bracing, shoulder bracing, and even elbow stabilization. Those things are great. The part I find somewhat insulting is how historically a folding stock was worth a point of recoil mod when out, while an actual stock made out of cherry wood was worth zilch.

-Username17
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

And... here we go:
Holdout Pistols
Weapon NameDamageAPModeAmmoSkillStrengthAvailabilityCost
Cavalier Scout3-SA7 (c)Pistol (Holdout)4¥
Fichetti Tiffani Needler5 (f)x2SA4 (c)Pistol (Holdout)35R500¥
Raecor Sting5(f)x2SS5 (c)Pistol (Holdout)36R350¥
Streetline Special3-SS6 (c)Pistol (Holdout)44R100¥
Morrissey Elan3-SA5 (c)Pistol (Holdout)37R450¥
Walther Palm Pistol3-SS/BF2(b)Pistol (Holdout)44R175¥
Light Pistols
Weapon NameDamageAPModeAmmoSkillStrengthAvailabilityCost
Ares Light Fire 703-SA16 (c)Pistol (Automatic)23R350¥
Beretta 101T3-SA12 (C)Pistol (Automatic)24R200¥
Beretta 200ST3-SA/BF20 (c)Pistol (Automatic)27R550¥
Ceska vz/ 1203-SA18 (c)Pistol (Automatic)24R350¥
Colt America L363-SA11 (c)Pistol (Automatic)24R150¥
Colt Asp3-SA6 (cy)Pistol (Revolver)23R175¥
Fichetti Executive Action3-SA/BF18 (c)Pistol (Automatic)212R700¥
Fichetti Security 6003-SA30 (c)Pistol (Automatic)26R450¥
Hammerli 620S3-SA6 (c)Pistol (Automatic)18R650¥
SA Puzzler3-SA12 (c)Pistol (Automatic)315F900¥
Seco LD-1203-SA12 (c)Pistol (Automatic)23R250¥
Taurus Multi-63/4/5-SA6 (cy)Pistol (Revolver)2/3/47R200¥
Walther PB-1203-SA10 (c)/15 (c)Pistol (Automatic)29R400¥
Sakura Fubuki3-SA/BF/FA10 (ml) x4Pistol (Automatic)210R2000¥
Machine Pistols
Ares Crusader3-SA/BF/FA40 (c)Pistol (Automatic)37R700¥
Ceska Black Scorpion3-SA/BF/FA35 (c)Pistol (Automatic)38R550¥
FN 5-7C3-SA/BF/FA20 (c)Pistol (Automatic)28R600¥
PPSK-4 Collapsible
Machine Pistol
3-SA/BF/FA30 (c)Pistol (Automatic)320F2800¥
Steyr TMP3-SA/BF/FA30 (c)Pistol (Automatic)38R600¥
Ares Predator
Full Auto Mod
4-FA15 (c)Pistol (Automatic)44F700¥
Fichtti Securty
Full Auto Mod
3-FA30 (c)Pistol (Automatic)36F900¥
Heavy Pistols
Weapon NameDamageAPModeAmmoSkillStrengthAvailabilityCost
Ares Predator IV4-1SA15 (c)Pistol (Automatic)34R350¥
Ares Viper Slivergun6(f)x2SA/BF30 (c)Pistol (Automatic)25R500¥
Browning Ultra-Power4-1SA10 (c)Pistol (Automatic)34R300¥
Cavalry Deputy4-1SA7 (cy)Pistol (Revolver)34R225¥
Colt Government 20664-1SA14 (c)Pistol (Automatic)36R500¥
Colt Manhunter4-1SA16 (c)Pistol (Automatic)34R300¥
Eichiro Hatamoto II6-1SS1 (m)Pistol (Holdout)510R800¥
HK Urban Fighter4-1SA10 (c)Pistol (Automatic)314F1400¥
Morrissey Alta4-1SA12 (c)Pistol (Automatic)37R850¥
Morrissey Elite4-1SA5 (c)Pistol (Automatic)46R450¥
Nitama NeMax4-1SA10 (c)Pistol (Automatic)316R1700¥
PSK Collapsible Pistol4-1SA8 (c)Pistol (Automatic)318F2300¥
Remington Roomsweeper4-1SA8 (m)Pistol (Revolver)36R250¥
Ruger Super Warhawk5-2SS6 (cy)Pistol (Revolver)44R250¥
Ruger Thunderbolt4-1BF12 (c)Pistol (Automatic)312R750¥
Savalette Guardian4-1SA/BF15 (c)Pistol (Automatic)37R800¥
Walther Secura4-1SA12 (c)Pistol (Automatic)35R300¥
Walther Secura Kompakt4-1SA9 (c)Pistol (Automatic)47R400¥
WW Infiltrator4-1SA15 (c)Pistol (Automatic)416F1100¥
Submachine Guns
Weapon NameDamageAPModeAmmoSkillStrengthAvailabilityCost
AK-97 Carbine4-1SA/BF/FA30 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)34R400¥
Ares Executive Protector3-1SA/BF/FA30 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)3/29F1000¥
Beretta Model 703-2BF/FA35 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)25R650¥
Colt Cobra TZ-1103-2SA/BF/FA32 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)25R550¥
Colt Cobra TZ-1153-2SA/BF/FA32 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)25R475¥
Colt Cobra TZ-1183-2SA/BF/FA32 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)25R650¥
Colt M24A3 Water Carbine4-SA/BF30 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)210F1200¥
FN P93 Praetor3-2SA/BF/FA50 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)111F650¥
HK-227X3-2SA/BF/FA28 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)28R800¥
HK MP-5 TX3-2SA/BF/FA20 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)14R550¥
HK Urban Combat3-2SA/BF/FA36 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)116F2400¥
Ingram Smartgun X3-2BF/FA32 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)26R650¥
Ingram SuperMach 1003-2SA/FA/HV40 or 60 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)29F975¥
Ingram Warrior-103-2SA/BF30 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)24R400¥
Sandler TMP3-2BF/FA20 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)24R350¥
SCK Model 1003-2SA/BF30 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)26R750¥
Uzi IV3-2BF24 (c)Automatics (Submachine Guns)24R500¥
Assault Rifles
Weapon NameDamageAPModeAmmoSkillStrengthAvailabilityCost
AK-974-2SA/BF/FA38 (c)Automatics (Assault Rifles)24R500¥
AK-984-2SA/BF/FA38 (c)Automatics (Assault Rifles)28F1000¥
Grenade LauncherGrenadeGrenadeSS6 (M)Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launchers)
AK-2974-2SA/BF/FA60 (c)Automatics (Assault Rifles)110R3500¥
Ares Alpha4-2SA/BF/FA42 (c)Automatics (Assault Rifles)312F1700¥
Grenade LauncherGrenadeGrenadeSS6 (M)Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launchers)
Ares HVAR4-2SA/BF/HV50 (c)Automatics (Assault Rifles)211F2400¥
Colt M224-2SA/BF/FA40 (c)Automatics (Assault Rifles)26R1100¥
Colt M22A34-2SA/BF/FA40 (c)Automatics (Assault Rifles)29F1600¥
Grenade LauncherGrenadeGrenadeSS6 (M)Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launchers)
Colt M234-2SA/BF/FA40 (c)Automatics (Assault Rifles)25R750¥
HK G12A3Z4-2SA/BF/FA32 (c)Automatics (Assault Rifles)29F1750¥
Nitama Optimum II4-2SA/BF/FA30 (c)Automatics (Assault Rifles)210F2200¥
Shotgun6-SA5 (M)Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launchers)
Longarms (Shotguns)
4
Sernopal vz/88V4-2SA/BF/FA35 (c)Automatics (Assault Rifles)18F1650¥
Battle Rifles
Weapon NameDamageAPModeAmmoSkillStrengthAvailabilityCost
Combine XBR555-2SA/BF/FA36 (c)Automatics (Assault Rifles)
Longarms (Rifles)
412F4500¥
FN SFCBR5-2SA/BF/FA20 (c)Automatics (Assault Rifles)
Longarms (Rifles)
48F2400¥
HK G13B5-2SA/BF/FA20 (c)
50 (cy)
Automatics (Assault Rifles)
Longarms (Rifles)
416F2200¥
Ares MR-625-3SA/BF/FA15 (c)Automatics (Assault Rifles)
Longarms (Rifles)
410R1800¥
AZT Poctli5-2SA/BF/FA30 (c)Automatics (Assault Rifles)
Longarms (Rifles)
414F3600¥
Sport Rifles
Weapon NameDamageAPModeAmmoSkillStrengthAvailabilityCost
Mannlicher Wildhunter6-3SS6 (c)Longarms (Rifles)57R1200¥
Winchester Model 643-2SS20 (m)Longarms (Rifles)12R400¥
Remington 7505-3SS5 (m)Longarms (Rifles)34R500¥
Remington 9506-3SS5 (m)Longarms (Rifles)44R675¥
AZT 577 T-Rex7-2SS4 (m)Longarms (Rifles)
Heavy Weapons (Assault Cannon)
612R2400¥
Sniper Rifles
Weapon NameDamageAPModeAmmoSkillStrengthAvailabilityCost
Ares Desert Strike5-3SA14 (c)Longarms (Rifles)510F3350¥
Barrett Model 1216-4SA14 (c)Longarms (Rifles)618F9000¥
CZW Ostřelovač6-3SA12 (c)Longarms (Rifles)616F6500¥
HK PSG Enforcer4-3SA2 x 12 (c)Longarms (Rifles)412F4800¥
Ranger Arms SM45-4SA15 (c)Longarms (Rifles)416F6200¥
Walther MA-21004-3SA10 (m)Longarms (Rifles)510F5000¥
Shotguns
Weapon NameDamageAPModeAmmoSkillStrengthAvailabilityCost
Auto-Assault 165-1SA/BF/FA32 (d)Longarms (Shotguns)418R8000¥
Boyd & Richards Desperado5-1SS5 (m)Longarms (Shotguns)410R1700¥
Defiance T-2505-1SA5 (m)Longarms (Shotguns)43R475¥
Enfield AS-75-1SA/BF10 (c)
24 (d)
Longarms (Shotguns)412R1100¥
Franchi SPAS-225-1SA/BF10 (m)Longarms (Shotguns)410R1250¥
Mossberg AM-CMDT5-1SA/BF/FA10 (c)Longarms (Shotguns)412R1000¥
PJSS Model 55 Shotgun5-1SS2 (b)Longarms (Shotguns)47R1200¥
Remington 9905-1SA8 (m)Longarms (Shotguns)44R550¥
Street Sweeper4-1SS1 (b)Longarms (Shotguns)35R175¥
Light Machine Guns
Weapon NameDamageAPModeAmmoSkillStrengthAvailabilityCost
Ares MP-LMG4-3BF/FA50 (c)
Belt
Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns)412F1500¥
Ingram White Knight4-3BF/FA/HV50 (c)
Belt
Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns)412F2000¥
Ingram Valiant4-3BF/FA40 (c)
Belt
Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns)410F1200¥
EMERK-V4-3FABeltHeavy Weapons (Machine Guns)414F900¥
GE Vindicator Minigun4-3FA/HVBeltHeavy Weapons (Machine Guns)316F5500¥
SA Nemesis4-3BF/FA60 (c)Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns)417F3500¥
Medium Machine Guns
FN MAG-55-3FA/HV50 (box)
Belt
Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns)514F5500¥
Stoner Ares M2025-3FA50 (c)
Belt
Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns)512F4500¥
Ultimax MMG5-3FA40 (c)
Belt
Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns)513F4500¥
Heavy Machine Guns
Ruhrmetal SF206-3FA40 (c)
Belt
Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns)615F6500¥
RPK HMG6-3FA40 (c)
Belt
Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns)616F6000¥
Stoner Ares M1076-3FA40 (c)
Belt
Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns)615F7500¥
Ultimax HMG-26-3FA50 (c)
Belt
Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns)615F7500¥
Assault Cannons
Weapon NameDamageAPModeAmmoSkillStrengthAvailabilityCost
Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle8-8SA10 (c)
+10 (battery)
Heavy Weapons (Assault Cannon)424F13000¥
Ares Vigorous Assault Cannon8-7SS12 (c)Heavy Weapons (Assault Cannon)918F4000¥
AZT Tlatlatzin Gauss Rifle8-8SA20 (c)
+external power source
Heavy Weapons (Assault Cannon)524F12000¥
Norsutykki L-477-7SS10 (c)Heavy Weapons (Assault Cannon)
Longarms (Rifles)
715F4800¥
Panther XXL8-7SS15 (c)Heavy Weapons (Assault Cannon)820F5500¥
Laser Weapons
Weapon NameDamageAPModeAmmoSkillStrengthAvailabilityCost
Ares Redline3-halfHV200 (battery)
External Power Source
Automatics (Submachine Guns)214F7500¥
Ares 3rd Dawn4-halfHV200 (battery)
External Power Source
Automatics (Assault Rifles)318F12000¥
Ares Apollo6-halfHV200 (battery)
External Power Source
Automatics (Assault Rifles)
Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns)
624F30000¥
Winter Systems Falling Star3-halfHV100 (battery)
External Power Source
Automatics (Submachine Guns)116F8000¥
Winter Systems Evil Eye5-halfHV150 (battery)
External Power Source
Automatics (Assault Rifles)
Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns)
524F24000¥
Renraku Taiyou5-halfHVExternal Power SourceAutomatics (Assault Rifles)520F24000¥
Fichetti Pain InducerSpecial-halfFA/HV100 (battery)Automatics (Assault Rifle)18R2000¥
Flame Weapons
Weapon NameDamageAPModeAmmoSkillStrengthAvailabilityCost
AZT F3a4-halfFA100 (tank)Automatics (Assault Rifle)314F1800¥
Shiawase Blazer3-halfFA80 (tank)Automatics (Submachine Guns)216F1200¥
Special Weapons
Weapon NameDamageAPModeAmmoSkillStrengthAvailabilityCost
Ares S-III Super SquirtChemical-SA20 (c)Pistols (Revolver)14¥500
Grenade Launchers & Mortars
Weapon NameDamageAPModeAmmoSkillStrengthAvailabilityCost
Ares Antioch-2GrenadeGrenadeSS8 (m)Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launcher)38F600¥
ArmTech MGL-6GrenadeGrenadeSA6 (c)Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launcher)510F1500¥
ArmTech MGL-12GrenadeGrenadeSA6 (c)Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launcher)410F2000¥
Enfield GL-67GrenadeGrenadeSS20 (d)Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launcher)314F4000¥
M-12 Portable MortarMortarMortarSS1Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launcher)-16F2250¥
IRA Remote MortarMortarMortarSA/BF10 (m)Gunnery (Artillery)-20F5000¥
Vehicular Weaponry
Weapon NameDamageAPModeAmmoSkillStrengthAvailabilityCost
Ares Firelance (laser)8-halfHV500 (battery)
External power source
Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns)
Gunnery (Energy Weapons)
-25F400000¥
Ares Fogger Glop Cannonspecial-SA50 (belt)Heavy Weapons (Assault Cannon)
Gunnery (Artillery)
-15R10000¥
AZT Itzcoatl Gauss Cannon12-8SS50 (belt)
+external power source
Heavy Weapons (Assault Cannon)
Gunnery (Ballistic)
-30F600000¥
Fleche Barrage Rocket LauncherRocketRocketSpecial20Heavy Weapons (Rocket)
Gunnery (Rocket)
-25F20000¥
GE Vigilant Light Autocannon7-3FA/HV200 (belt)Heavy Weapons (Machine Gun)
Gunnery (Ballistic)
-15F10000¥
GE Vanquisher Heavy Autocanon8-4FA/HV200 (belt)Heavy Weapons (Machine Gun)
Gunnery (Ballistic)
-20F20000¥
GM Light Cannon9-6SS50 (belt)Heavy Weapons (Assault Cannon)
Gunnery (Ballistic)
-18F50000¥
GM Heavy Cannon11-7SS50 (belt)Heavy Weapons (Assault Cannon)
Gunnery (Ballistic)
-22F100000¥
Lone Star FlashFlood Water Cannon3N-halfFA200 (tank)
external water source
Heavy Weapons (Machine Gun)
Gunnery (Artillery)
-10R5000¥
Shiawase Microwave CannonSpecial-halfHV200 (battery)
external power source
Heavy Weapons (Machine Gun)
Gunnery (Energy Weapons)
-20R25000¥
SK Taurus Gauss Cannon10-8SS50 (belt)
+external power source
Heavy Weapons (Assault Cannon)
Gunnery (Ballistic)
-25F200000¥
Winter Systems Mercury Laser10-halfHVexternal power sourceHeavy Weapons (Machine Guns)
Gunnery (Energy Weapons)
-30F1000000¥
KC-Arms 155 HowitzerMortarMortarSS10 (m)Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launchers)
Gunnery (Artillery)
-20F120000¥

Plus, here's a vehicle preview:

Vehicle Stats
This is a tree. It will take you from 60 to 0 in zero seconds.

Vehicles need attributes too. They don't have Agility or Willpower, but there are things about them that make them distinct.

Speed
People rarely push vehicles to their actual maximum speed. And traveling at maximum speed isn't good for vehicles anyway. So the “speed” is simply the highest speed before things start to rattle. Skilled or insane drivers can push vehicles to higher speed by flooring the accelerator or flipping on the afterburners, or whatever it is that their vehicle does to go faster, but for simplicity's sake this absolute maximum is considered to be proportional to the normal speed at which the vehicle can travel. Speeds are given in Kilometers per hour, as vehicles moving at maximum speed are not usually usefully measured in meters per combat round. In 3 seconds, a vehicle will move 5/6 as many meters as its KPH speed, for what that is worth.

Acceleration
Acceleration is usually a purely academic concern. It takes you 1 second instead of 2 to have to slow down because the guy in front of you has engaged hands-free GridGuide, so what? In a chase across the desert or the ocean, it won't much matter who has the faster acceleration rate, because max speed is pretty much the whole of the answer as to who catches or does not catch whom. But drag racing does exist, and more importantly people chase each other in traffic and confined spaces all the time. In those instances it usually doesn't matter how fast your vehicle could go, it only matters how quickly your vehicle can change speeds.

In heavy traffic or other “tight” terrain, whichever vehicle has the higher Acceleration is considered “faster” during a Chase. Acceleration values are given in meters per second per second. This makes it easy to plug into physics equations. In combat, assume that the vehicle can accelerate by its Acceleration value on Initiative Pass 2, 3, and 4. For constant acceleration problems, the distance it actually travels will be its previous speed plus half its acceleration in meters per second.

Handling
Different vehicles handle better or worse than others. It's a complex measurement of turning radius, responsiveness, breaking, and gear shifting for land vehicles and even more complex measurements of an airborne vehicle's ability to stay aloft with sudden shifts in direction and speed. Practically however, it's a number that modifies the driver/pilot's dicepools when they are making complex maneuvers or engaged in Chase tests in tight terrain. Handling has no effect at all on how fast your vehicle goes in a straightaway, and does not modify chases in open terrain.

Body
Vehicles roll damage resistance tests too. A vehicle's Body attribute is the number of dice it rolls for that purpose.

Mass
Things which are very big relative to humans are more difficult to destroy with human sized weapons. A vehicle's Mass is subtracted from the damage inflicted upon it in a similar manner that damage is reduced by Hardened Armor.

Mass also affects how much damage the other party receives in a crash.

Armor
Vehicular Armor is hardened by default. If you want to give a vehicle more damage resistance dice, it is usually a good idea to just give it a higher body.

Seating
Seating is simply a measure of how many people can sit in a vehicle and still get seatbelts. Obviously if the passengers are very good friends they can sit on each other's laps. And in large vehicles there may be room to stand if things get desperate. Also seats may become overcrowded if the people involved are 3 meters tall or whatever.

Pilot
Pilot is the measure of the vehicle's ability to operate itself. In the 2070s, most vehicles can drive themselves from point A to point B. These systems aren't actually intelligent and are designed for a vehicle operating under normal circumstances. When a vehicle is damaged, subtract its injury modifier from its Pilot rating. So for example: a vehicle that had suffered Moderate Damage (3 boxes) would have its Pilot reduced by 2, while a vehicle that had suffered Serious Damage (6 boxes) would have its Pilot reduced by 3. A vehicle whose Pilot has been reduced to 0 may still try to drive itself, but will likely as not drive into a wall instead of getting anywhere useful.

It is important to note that the Pilot is not merely a program that tells the vehicle what to do, it is the actual hardware that allows the electronic commands of the software to translate into the vehicle doing real things in real space. The Pilot rating acts as an attribute if the vehicle performs autonomous tasks (using software such as Clearsight and targeting programs as a skill), but the rating itself caps what the vehicle is capable of doing autonomously or under the direction of a rigger.
PilotCapabilities
0Cruise Control
1Point to point travel with explicit map path or GridGuide support
Trigger basic functions such as locks and windshield wipers
2Sensor assisted navigation in uncontrolled environments
Perform strength-requiring functions such as opening doors or targeting weaponry
3Adjust for the motion of the vehicle in order to utilize devices
For example: targeting a weapon while moving
4Perform functions given symbolically such as going to a place where
someone is rather than to a specific coordinate.
5Perform multiple body problems.
For example: firing different weapons at different targets while moving.
6Classified.

Sensor
The sensory feed at a vehicle's disposal is represented by its Sensor attribute. More than simply duct taping a video camera to the top, the Sensor is a set of hardware that integrates a series of cameras, motion detectors, and whatever other sensory feeds into a coherent picture of how the vehicle is operating and what is around it. Of course, a vehicle can be outfitted with specific sensors that do specific things without adjusting its Sensor Rating. And these additional sensors may or may not be integrated into the vehicle's sensor array and control system. You still totally can duct tape a video recorder to the top of a car if that's what you want to do. However, when a vehicle comes with a sensor rating,you can assume that certain sensory capabilities have already been included based on its rating:
SensorUsually Has...
0Speedometer
Fuel Gauge
1Camera
GPS
2Microphone
Motion Detector
3Sonar System
Thermosensor
4Radar
Laser Range Finder
5Magnetic Analyzer
Density Scanner
6Classified.

Cost
Vehicles below are listed with a cost, but not an availability. The cost is how much a vehicle costs to buy it new from whoever the dealer is. Buying a used or stolen vehicle will obviously cost very much less. In its first year, a vehicle loses 15-20% of its value, and continues to lose value forever, albeit at a slower rate, from that point on (assuming that it is still running at all). If a vehicle continues to be serviceable and kept in very good condition for 40 to 50 years, it becomes a “classic” and suddenly becomes valuable again, but that is not something that is worth thinking about over the course of a Shadowrun game. A vehicle's value to a chop shop is usually about 7% of its purchase price (which is by the way, what a chop shop in 2011 in Prague will pay for a new stolen car).

Due to the nature of vehicles and how they go on roads and get checked regularly by GridGuide and all that, there really isn't the kind of shadow market that there is for other equipment that Shadowrunners use. There is no “availability” rating for vehicles. You either find a seller for whatever it is you're looking for or you don't.

The Vehicle List
You! Out of the motor pool!
2-Wheeled
VehicleSpeedAccelerationHandlingBodyMassArmorSeatingPilotSensorCost
Dodge Scoot (scooter)80442011004000¥
Yamaha Rapier (street bike)2208430110011000¥
Harley Scorpion (chopper)1906341220112000¥
Mitsuzuki Aurora (racing bike)34010530111215000¥
BMW Blitzen (Kaneda's bike)38011551413226300¥

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Lokathor
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Post by Lokathor »

"Special Weapons" should also include an entry for an RAS Taser.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

You have "shotgun" listed under "assault rifles".
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Username17
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Post by Username17 »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:You have "shotgun" listed under "assault rifles".
That is entirely intentional. The Optimum has an underbarrel Shotgun.

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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

FrankTrollman wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:You have "shotgun" listed under "assault rifles".
That is entirely intentional. The Optimum has an underbarrel Shotgun.

-Username17
Maybe this is a dumb question, but why does the underbarrel shotgun do more damage than any pure shotgun?
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France

Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.

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Post by Quantumboost »

FrankTrollman wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:You have "shotgun" listed under "assault rifles".
That is entirely intentional. The Optimum has an underbarrel Shotgun.

-Username17
Indenting the additional parts of composite/configurable weapons with spaces could help with clarity there. It seems to work in the basic book at least.
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