alt.War: Turning Anger into productiveness

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Username17
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Post by Username17 »

Now that you've decided to do a non-JackPoint message board, you'll want to assign yourself a set of posters. Now, the current CGL people don't even update the JackPoint wiki, which gets you bullshit like how HardExit is a mouth breathing idealist ranting about how damaging the society of the locals is unacceptable in one post and is then suddenly an iron fisted realist who shrugs about how collateral damage in human lives is an inevitable part of war on the same fucking page. Now fortunately, for this piece, you're only going to do the one book (unless Spy Games sucks so much that you end up doing alt.SpyGames), which means that you don't have to maintain a database of what the different posters have done like FanPro used to.

Nevertheless, you need a chart, and you need it now. Each poster should bring a unique viewpoint and skill set to the table. Ideally, readers would be able to not only track the posters by the "feel" of their writing, but also to get a feel about which posters they personally agreed with. So, for example, you'd start your table out like this:
NameDescriptionFromSkillsLikesHates
SimbaMercenary
(Optimal Solutions Services)
CongoShooting People in the Face
Jungle Survival
Navigating Ethnic Tensions
History
Black Ops
Magic
Tutsis
RageXHackerAntiguaElectronic Warfare
Smuggling
Runners
Piracy
Voodoo
Catholics
"The Man"
Green RingHacker
Terrorist for Hire
Los AngelesInformation Management
Chemistry
Collateral Damage
Chaos
Money
Ares Macrotechnology
"The Man"
BɨryekomoTapir Shapeshifter
Hixkaryana Tribe
AmazoniaEating Bugs
Guerrilla Warfare
Environmentalism
Indigenous Rights
Mycoprotein
Corporations
Aztlan
Insect Spirits
RataxesSoldier
French Foreign Legion
BrittanyTank Warfare
Extreme Overkill
Demolitions
Fascist Sympathies
Overwhelming Force
Victory for the Overdog
Communists
Environmentalists
Chun The UnavoidableRigger
Magician
Kuala LumpurConjuration
Rigging
Scouting
Datamining
Asamando
Anime
Ghouls
Governmental Secrecy
Corporate Secrecy
Vampires
VanHelsingMonster HunterSerbiaParanormal Critters
Bug Hunts
Eastern Orthodoxy
Slavic Unity
Conspiracy Theories
Vampires
Romania
ToyBoxDrone RiggerGary, UCASScrounging
Mechanics
Demolitions
Forensics
Old Tech
SOTA Creep
New NERPS
HannibalDesert Warrior
Quartermaster
Ares Forces
TripoliLogistics
Smuggling
Finance
Military History
Large Animals
The Mafia
MREs
Wasting Supplies
HugMonsterTroll Assassin
Adept (Secret Way)
10,000 Daggers
TblisiStealth
Disguise
Hand to Hand Combat
Political Instability
Sex Tourism
Fine Dining
Russia
Collateral Damage
Racism
RingmasterElf Talislegger
Antiquities Dealer
AthensHistory
Enchanting
Smuggling
Legends and Mythology
Wine
Stolen Goods
Muslims
Forgeries
ImmortalCombat Medic
Black Crescent
TehranField Medicine
Logistics
Relief Operations
Humanitarian Causes
Helping People
The Caliphate
Techophobes
VITAS
MamasanBrothel Manager
(Yakuza)
BangkokPimping
Intimidation
Chemistry
Poisons
Torture
Blackmail
Metahumans
Physical Violence
Koreans
KangeanCriminal Business ManagerJava
Phnom Penh
Business
Crime
Bribery
Money
Corruption
Emotional Decisions
Morality
Hound DogBounty HunterNashvilleTracking
Detective Work
Classic Rock
Whiskey
Classic Rock
Wanted Criminals
Soy Food
Minor Inconveniences
MonkeywrencherSaboteur
Green War
Scandinavian UnionDemolitions
Sabotage
Rock n' Roll
Environmentalist Causes
Pink Mohawks
Attitude
The Man
Pollution
GroatsterGiant Mercenary
Atlantean Foundation
Minute Men
Liverpool
Atlanta
Heavy Weapons
Looming
Antiquities
Coca Cola
Shedim
The British Army
Dragons
KerriganFlesh Form Ant
High Threat Construction Contractor
PyongyangConstruction
Magical Knowledge
Super Strength
Worlds of Starcraft
The Hive
Major Construction Projects
Ares
Terrans
Universal Brotherhood
HeartfinderOrgan Legger
Orkish Gurkha
NepalSword Fighting
Field Medicine
Kidnapping
Hinduism
Paracritters
Modern Medicine
The Media
Cowardice
S-K
SolutionMagical Sniper
Mercenary (open contract)
MoscowLong Distance Fire Support
Sorcery
Astral Recon
Optics
Metaplanes
Elegant Work
Central Asia
Collateral Damage
Shapeshifters

Then you'd add some more names to it. But you'd never put in more than about 30 total, because then voices get lost in cacophony.

-Username17
Last edited by Username17 on Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Youth »

FrankTrollman wrote:The shitty sensor and signature rules are part of the vehicle rules, and that means that they need a ground up rethink.
I don't want to get too far into an SR5 thing, but EotM has a good start with turning Sensor into a stat for dedicated processor parallel to the machine's response, so that range and image resolution are separate. Core purists couldn't argue with the utility of that. Also, it strikes me that machines should benefit from the kind of simple bonuses that humans get with their easy +3 enhancement specs and +3 attn coprocessors and +3 Limbic nanites and so on. Eyes and ears shouldn't stand a chance compared to a massive sensor bank. Pilot + Sensor + Clearsight should make things a little closer to right without having to rethink Perception altogether.

So, what do you figure for sig rules? I don't think it's a good idea to take it back to the SR3 where signature was a unique vehicle stat, so maybe making it simple range scale based on Body would be alright. Then masking could drop the signature down by [body] amount and make smaller drones and such show up like micro targets, but couldn't make micro targets completely invisible or make huge displacement stuff like a zeppelin or an 18-wheeler look like a blip at basically no expense.


Personally, I wouldn't mind bringing the Medusa into the 70s..
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Post by Neurosis »

Important question seems to me: Which canonical NPCs can we use to enrich this project?
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Post by Kot »

A Tapir Shapeshifter? Srsly? <laughs>
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Post by Username17 »

Schwarzkopf wrote:Important question seems to me: Which canonical NPCs can we use to enrich this project?
Well, you can use any you want. You probably don't want to use any official commentators, because CGL is going to continue pissing on their characterizations until a new developer happens. So if you decide to write in Laughing Man you could discover that CGL comes out with a piece of shovelware next month that has Harlequin being a pedophile and then killed. It's basically like a much less talented version of Alan Moore was allowed to write anything he wants about those characters.

So if you use canon characters, use characters like Sophie de Rochefort of Cambodia that the current crop of CGL hacks don't even know about, because that way you're unlikely to discover that someone has "officially" decided that the character you were writing about has moved to Denver and became a hippie or something. Heck, some of the characters on that list I provided are characters that exist in canon - they are just so extremely obscure that I doubt CGL is going to take time out of their day to piss on them.

Anyway, on how to progress from the introduction to the story, I would suggest starting with a piece describing why the events matter to the player characters. So you should put job openings front and center, with the history of the events creeping in along the sides. Something like this:

Welcome To the Khmer Rouge
"Whenever people are angry enough to kill, they are desperate enough to pay."
Posted by: Simba

When you're packing your bags to take a mercenary contract in Indochina, you'll want to make sure to take a Khmer Rouge uniform. Black pants, black shirt, green hat, red and white checkered scarf. It's surprisingly comfortable, and isn't bad for the terrain. But you'll be packing one because no matter what faction you're actually working for, chances are pretty good that you'll be wearing one of these.

The Khmer Rouge was the big bad in Cambodia about a hundred years ago. They were led by this guy Pol Pot who decided that he was bored of being a Buddhist monk and wanted to try his hand at some good old fashioned genocide. They wiped out about an eighth of the population. The monuments to their atrocities are just these mountains of human bones – it's eerie. No one really understands why they did it either, apparently it just seemed like a good idea at the time. Khmer Rouge writings exist, but they don't make any sense. They got crushed by a Vietnamese invasion a bit over ninety years back, and after limping around as bandits in the forest for a few decades they pretty much went extinct in the early parts of this century. And that's why it's so popular to wear the uniform right now: no one ever knew what they stood for, they're scary as a barghest, and there aren't any real ones to get mad at you.

The tradition started right at the beginning, with the assassination of Vasuki. He was one powerful dude, so I don't know who or how anyone took him down with anything short of a nuclear bomb. But the real crowning achievement is that within seconds of the snake king hitting the dust, there were posts from Phnom Penh to Phucket to Ho Chi Minh claiming responsibility – signed by the Khmer Rouge. Now, I'm pretty sure that it wasn't the Khmer Rouge, because they don't actually exist anymore. Smart money is probably on shadowrunners hired by Esprit Industries. But I'm not sure who did it, and neither is anyone else. And what a great bogeyman that turned out to be. Most powerful naga that ever lived gets a bullet in all seven heads and the news feeds fill up with a thousand megapulses of arguments about whether the Khmer Rouge had reformed for real. That is some quality signal obscurement.
  • I'll say. Remember kids: playing on local fears and expectations can be far more effective than simple wet noise to cover your trail.
  • Green Ring
Turns out, that same strategy works for everyone else too. And now, everyone is using it. Back in the day, the real Khmer Rouge used to go on regular slave raids across the border into Thailand, Vietnam, and Laos, so memories of the Khmer Rouge horror run pretty deep in adjacent countries too. Any faction that wants to conduct military action without taking the rap for it just puts their troops in Khmer Rouge uniforms and sends them on their way. It's well established that Cambodian, Siamese, Kampuchean, Vietnamese, and Laotian soldiers have all donned checkered scarves at some point or another. And corp units have started getting in on the action too. So far, every interested party has maintained the fiction that they haven't sent any troops outside the areas they claim as their own – which is almost credible considering that The Republic of Cambodia claims land as far north as Suwannaphum and Nag Kampuchea claims lands all the way west to Assam.

Nevertheless, despite each country playing nice with the UN observers, there are a fair amount of military targets that simply are not in regions that those countries can make a vaguely plausible claim on. And most of the interested corporations don't have claimed territory in places they have military objectives. These days, Shinsiam and Esprit troops spend as much time in black pajamas as their own corporate uniforms.

What You'll Be Fighting For
It's a one, two, three... what are we fighting for? Seriously, it's confusing.

Most experts predict this war to be both protracted and bloody. And one of the main reasons for that is that most of the national participants have wholly incompatible objectives. Siam, The Republic of Cambodia, and the Montagnard Confederation all want the same thing: they want land. And worse, they pretty much want the same land: the historically Khmer region between Pursat and Suwannaphum. Vietnam pretty much just wants to contain the conflict outside their borders, but the Montagnard Confederation wants their eastern provinces and every faction seems to think that outflanking their enemies through Vietnam is brilliant tactics. Laos isn't sure what it wants, which is why it has largely descended into civil war between the pro-Siamese Dai Lao and the pro-Vietnamese Pathet Lao.
  • The Laotians are culturally and linguistically similar to the Thai, but have a shared colonial history under French rule with the Cambodians and Vietnamese. Laos kicked most of their Vietnamese occupiers out in 2067, but has been experiencing some buyer's remorse on that independence. Turns out that only people working for the Khouang Combine have jobs.
  • Hannibal
The corporate actors have rather more complicated goals, but more limited official mandates. Each corporation only has fully recognized military jurisdiction within their own extraterritorial property. However, it is within the purview of every corporation that owns property to want to acquire more property – so their military units are leaving their compounds all the time. They just have to do so in secret, under false flags (such as the ever popular Khmer Rouge uniforms), or as contractors working as security or advisors for some other agency that has a “legitimate” reason to be in any particular place. That last part is especially important, there are units of Cambodian Republican Guard that have more “advisors” from Esprit Industries than native born soldiers; there are units fighting for the Dai Lao that are almost entirely composed of Shinsiam security personnel who are nominally there as bodyguards for Laotian politicians.

You'll want to update some things, advance some plotlines and abandon others. For example: I dropped the plotline of people speculating that Vietnam was going to break up into Communist North Vietnam and Capitalist South Vietnam and have a civil war - because that shit is boring. There is a reason that plotline never got picked up by any subsequent books. But the "Cambodian nagas are seceding and making their own kingdom" plotline has shown up several times (most notably in Running Wild, where it gets several pages). That is because that is weird and awesome and people like it.

Similarly, you'll notice that I updated the Dega Alliance to the Montagnard Confederation. As far as I know "Dega" are just the Montagnards who are Christians, while the "Montagnards" are all the various hill tribes that live in the border region between Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Thailand. Since the Dega Alliance was portrayed as working with and for Forest Spirits and Ancestor Spirits, it is reasonable to think that they were not primarily a Christian sect. As such, it is more than probable that the Dega simply got to be in command because they had more food and guns because they were being supplied by Western missionaries. As soon as they coagulated into something that was even state-like, the fact that the Dega were actually a small minority of the total people meant that the Montagnard name would get voted in.

You need a list of historical assumptions and a timeline - but you don't want or need that to come first. People want to know what is going on and why they should care before they want to know what happened and why things are like this.

-Username17
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Post by FistFullOfEdgeDice »

Southeast Asia writer here, Megu from the other board. Hi everybody! I started on it since I'm a grad student on a mixed linguistics/Southeast Asian Studies track focused on Hmong (a hilltribe group) culture anyways, so this is right up my alley.

I've got about three single spaced pages written so far detailing the conflict in Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia so far. Essentially, the national governments of Vietnam and Cambodia are fighting the hilltribe/forest spirit alliance and the naga, and I'm trying to give it all a bit of a Princess Mononoke meets platoon feel. Five major flashpoints so far: Stoeng Treng in northeast Cambodia, the Buon Me Thuot/Da Lat area in southern Vietnam, the Truong Son mountains and Hue/Da Nang, Xiengkhouang Province and the Plain of Jars in Laos, and the Guangxi/Vietnam border.

I'm writing from the perspective that this is a Vientiane datahaven's document for fresh runner meat from abroad. But it looks like other people maybe have a more Shadowland-ish format? I can redo that later, I just want to get all my thoughts down.

I haven't read this thread yet, but I will. Just wanted to report in first.
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Post by FistFullOfEdgeDice »

A couple things in response to Frank's above vision of the SE Asia section:

First, I love the effort you put in here. It's fascinating to see how your vision differs from mine. I may borrow the idea of the Khmer Rouge as a cloak of anonymity, once I've got my Cambodian policlubs worked out.

I wanna note, though, I kept the plotline about revolutionary sentiment in southern Vietnam, because I liked that hook. Not that I didn't think "let's have a capitalist south and communist north again" was dumb, but I'm more reframing it as isolationist north and wanting-to-integrate-with-the-global-economy south anyways. The stuff I liked about it was A. it gives a good strategic reason for the hilltribes and spirits to drive into Vietnam, and B. it allows for a lot of intrigue and moral grey areas. Pro-democracy activism's good and all...but if it's funded by the corps, is there a price to pay? And there could be tension between the Chinese minority that is backing rebellion in the south and the hilltribes they're counting on, considering historically the Chinese and a lot of hill tribes, like the Hmong, have had bad blood. I like the idea of having both sides having tension between allies; the Vietnamese and Cambodians don't like each other at all, and part of the problem for Phnom Penh as I've got it written up is that the Vietnamese want to back them up, but that's terrible PR to any Cambodian person with a smidgen of nationalistic sentiment. Anyways, I feel like I wanted to use Saigon as an arena for Quiet American style intrigue, and the north/south issues work well for it.

Secondly, regarding the term Dega: it's not usually used in any sort of religious sense. It describes the same people as Montagnard, but there's a movement away from using the latter term because it's from a colonizer's language and thus has colonial connotations. "Dega" is from a Chamic language of the hills, Rhade, and doesn't have those connotations. So Dega doesn't in any way denote a subset of the hill tribes; there isn't a Dega tribe. And religion is very fluid in these cultures anyways. A lot of the Hmong families I know follow both shamanistic rites and Christian practices, for instance, and see no contradiction. It's a bit like the syncretic Catholicism you get in Latin America. So I'm not sure whether the involvement of spirits necessarily implies anything one way or another about Christianity in the Dega Alliance.
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Post by FistFullOfEdgeDice »

Just read your page 3 post! Sorry for the multi-posting I'm doing here.

The Garudas. I'd forgot those Garudas. Frankly the way I've been setting this up it's started to look tilted too much towards the Awakened side. But if the Thai are involved, that keeps things balanced again, and allows for a broadening of the scope of the war zone. And getting to put a democratic Thailand after Niranam's velvet revolution on the side of Cambodia and Vietnam's national governments keeps things from being too good guys vs bad guys. tl:dr I am taking this too.

Also, Sophie de Rochefort. Good idea. I wasn't sure what to do with her, and was still reading up on the Preah Khan. Again, I usually study stuff involving hilltribes farther north, my Cambodia knowledge, I'm still reading. Anyways, I like what you did with her as Queen. Would make Esprit's presence a lot less "foreign domination" ish, good PR move. So I'll steal that too and say she's married Prince Niradorom.

And as for the naga kingdom, I'd viewed them less as "they think humans are beneath them" because... I mean, to them that wouldn't be something they'd have to keep saying, because to them it's obvious. So they're oligarchic in the sense of locking metahuman Cambodians out of politics, but they have kind of a noblesse oblige thing going on, or seem to. I want some argument at least along the lines of "metahuman rulers' frailties may not apply" made by a commenter just from their sheer alienness, but at the same time the worry about tyranny is still there. I guess the inspiration for that was the decision to go with or not go with Helios at the end of Deus Ex, lol. Same kind of philosophical choice.
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Post by Username17 »

First of all: you can keep your stuff on the Montagnards if we focus on Northern Cambodia/Southern Thailand, because the lands they are fighting over are also there. The problem with Vietnam is that it's way over on the side of the peninsula and has no active Shadowrun plotlines that anyone cares about. The Cambodia/Siam/Nagas border is filled with all sorts of juicy bits that Shadowrun players care about. Nagas, Garudas, Corporate Intrigue, and a multi-way slap fight where individual tables are free to cast any side as the heroes or the villains.

Fundamentally, the ideas thrown out for Vietnam proper in Shadows of Asia sucked ass and no one cared. They also had an expiration date, so the fact that no one picked them up and ran with them (Vietnam 2: Electric Boogaloo) means that they are over and any Vietnamese plotlines you care to throw out there are stuff you have to make yourself.

The only vaguely interesting thing they left us is the Khouang Combine, an A-rated corp that is semi-autonomous from the nation of Vietnam and has interests in the area. Those guys are interesting, because they can and do have interests other than simple conquests in adjoining countries. But even that is frankly more interesting in a Laotian Civil War or something than it is in Vietnam proper. Fundamentally, any time you spend writing or even thinking about a possible land war involving Hanoi is a waste of time because no one fucking cares. There are zero open plotlines, zero named NPCs, zero places of interest, and zero interesting connections to anywhere else on the planet. It's not even a great big question mark like Congo or Chile - it totally had a writeup, but t was with a very matte, very uninspired, very uninteresting brush. And now no one fucking cares.

As for the Dega/Montagnard thing, when I search out for "Dega" I find rants by evangelists about how the Dega are a tribe of Montagnards who are being persecuted by the dirty commies in Vietnam for their Christian faith. Now, I understand that evangelical missionaries are in fact very likely to be "wrong" but that certainly implied to me that Montagnard was the generic word and that the Dega were a Christian subset of the Montagnard. I bow to your more specialized knowledge however.

I genuinely don't really care what we call those peoples, be it Dega, Degar, Montagnard, or Yard. Just so long as it isn't "Ng&#432;&#7901;i dân t&#7897;c thi&#7871;u s&#7889;".

-Username17
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Post by Username17 »

Anyway, it's probably a good idea to list potential plot hooks that have been set up so that we can storyboard more effectively.
CountryPlot HookFollowup
VietnamPossible civil war between North and SouthApparently resolved. Civil war did not happen.
VietnamAztechnology builds headquarters in HanoiNone
VietnamKhouang Combine part of Pacific Prosperity GroupRepeated (but misspelled) in Corp Guide
LaosRestlessness over Vietnamese occupationNone
CambodiaNagas form breakaway groupConfirmed statehood for naga monarchy in Running Wild
CambodiaFour Winds Triad has ties to the nagaFour Winds Triad mentioned, plotline still open
CambodiaNagas have magic emeraldsblack market for magic emeralds mentioned in Running Wild
CambodiaSofie de Rochefort gets the Preah KhanNone
CambodiaEsprit Industries propping up CambodiaEsprit military hardware mentioned in Corp Guide
ThailandMilitary Junta on brink of failureNone
ThailandGarudas favor new monarchNone
ThailandAnnexed parts of BurmaNone
ThailandBuilding a Canal across the Malay PeninsulaNone
ThailandLost Pattani, area now filled with more piratesNone
ThailandShinSiam is a AA corporation that does TeleComNone
ThailandShiawase and Monobe struggle for contracts in regionNone
ThailandStill has Yakuza brothels in spite of trying to clean up its imagenone.
BurmaDescending into corruptionNone
BurmaLost provincesNone
BurmaHas border disagreement with ThaisNone
BurmaMake lots of drugsYellow Lotus still exists.
BurmaHas separatist regionsNone

And yeah, most of that has to do with the fact that Indochina has been thoroughly and painfully ignored by Catalyst. And that Almanac was an incredibly shitty book. But the fact is that actual plotlines for Vietnam were generally speaking shoddy and didn't go anywhere. Basically the whole thing is a setup to do a "return to 'Nam" plotline for the late sixties (get it?). But that was stupid and no one bit.

The only area that has gotten any press since SoA was Cambodia. Which keeps coming up because naga are interesting. And yeah, the stuff in Thailand/Siam was pretty interesting too - but Catalyst dropped that ball.

-Username17
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Post by FistFullOfEdgeDice »

Curious. I actually really was interested in the Vietnam plotlines they had going on, so I tried to build off them a bit. The fact that they haven't been touched since, I'm not sure that makes them less usable. I'd like to hear how other people feel about them. Any opinions?

Where I'm getting my information on the Dega/Montagnard thing is http://www.cal.org/co/montagnards/vpeop.html and wikipedia, primarily. Totally different group than I usually work on, so I wouldn't exactly credit myself with a great deal of knowledge, hehe.

A question: My books are in Canada right now, but didn't Feral Cities have a bit in the initial Jackpoint login news dealie about Queen Caroline speaking out about a war having gone on in SE Asia for 8 years? That's why I'm assuming this stuff has been going for a while.

Here is what I've got so far, which is totally just a dump of content I'm going to refine later. http://rapidshare.com/files/439705874/Indochina.pdf

Sorry I've been out of contact, in the middle of a vacation right now. I'll be in and out.
Last edited by FistFullOfEdgeDice on Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

FistFullOfEdgeDice wrote:Curious. I actually really was interested in the Vietnam plotlines they had going on, so I tried to build off them a bit. The fact that they haven't been touched since, I'm not sure that makes them less usable.
The possibility of an imminent civil war is pretty much not usable if 9 years passed and it demonstrably did not happen. That's 3 presidents later, and the political teams are no longer relevant.
Where I'm getting my information on the Dega/Montagnard thing is http://www.cal.org/co/montagnards/vpeop.html and wikipedia, primarily. Totally different group than I usually work on, so I wouldn't exactly credit myself with a great deal of knowledge, hehe.
Huh. According to that, "Dega" is a term adopted by Montagnards living in the US. As such, it wouldn't be the name of any group actually in Indochina. There are apparently Montagnards who call themselves "Degar" with an R at the end. Having looked at the Montagnard Foundation Inc. webpage - it seems that they want people to use the word "Dega" even though it offends some of the tribes. I don't even pretend to know what that is about.
A question: My books are in Canada right now, but didn't Feral Cities have a bit in the initial Jackpoint login news dealie about Queen Caroline speaking out about a war having gone on in SE Asia for 8 years? That's why I'm assuming this stuff has been going for a while.
Certainly not in Feral Cities, that book just has a confirmation that Shiawase is running a reactor power facility in Borneo. Emergence tells us that there was a firefight between Shadowrunners and a cult practicing human sacrifice in Papua New Guinea. Street Magic tells us that there is a Cola Wars confrontation in the New Guinean jungle.

Really, there is straight up no information on Indochina for 4th edition outside of Running Wild. Sorry, it just isn't there. Now, within the context of Running Wild, they do say some stuff that is incompatible with your draft. The Naga already have a kingdom. It has some plot hooks thrown in, like how some low caste Naga are unhappy with the way things are done and defecting to human countries and how the Nagaraja has close ties with the Atlantean Foundation. But the point is: it's not civil unrest, it's not a civil war, it's an actual kingdom. With its capital in Angkor. Not Angkor Wat either, because a Wat is just a monastic temple - Angkor is the place. Angkor Wat is a big temple that is in Angkor, but not all of the Naga live in it. They have like buildings and shit.

But the really important thing is that there is an extra actual country between Phnom Penh and Bangkok. So obviously that is going to be the focus of the action. Because that is where all the fucking plot hooks are. If you want to include a big discussion about Vietnam, I suppose you could - but like as an island of civilization as the only country in the region that isn't in a life or death struggle with deadly muppets from the jungle. You could have war profiteers sitting around peacefully drinking mojitos in Ho Chi Minh city while they sell weaponry to adjoining countries that descend ever deeper into chaos and war.

-Username17
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Post by Loki »

FistFullOfEdgeDice wrote:A question: My books are in Canada right now, but didn't Feral Cities have a bit in the initial Jackpoint login news dealie about Queen Caroline speaking out about a war having gone on in SE Asia for 8 years? That's why I'm assuming this stuff has been going for a while.
What you mean can be found in "The Rotten Apple: Manhattan" and it was Queen Michelle of Shaanxi not Caroline. The news item is included in this DriveThru RPG-preview: http://watermark.drivethrustuff.com/pdf ... sample.pdf
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Post by FistFullOfEdgeDice »

Loki wrote:
FistFullOfEdgeDice wrote:A question: My books are in Canada right now, but didn't Feral Cities have a bit in the initial Jackpoint login news dealie about Queen Caroline speaking out about a war having gone on in SE Asia for 8 years? That's why I'm assuming this stuff has been going for a while.
What you mean can be found in "The Rotten Apple: Manhattan" and it was Queen Michelle of Shaanxi not Caroline. The news item is included in this DriveThru RPG-preview: http://watermark.drivethrustuff.com/pdf ... sample.pdf
Glad I'm not entirely crazy. Knew it was some queen, that makes a hell of a lot more sense.

Looking at it now.
>2072
>the conflict between the Dega Alliance and the Vietnamese government drags into its seventh year

Okay, so I have the first major Dega rising in 2065, so I guess I'm ok there. And it does seem to back me up that things aren't entirely calm there.

Checking out RW now ....

It says very little about the "naga nation", "Naga Kingdom" or whatever. Looking at this I feel like there's still definitely room to have the Nagaraja lay claim to Cambodia in its entirety. I may need to redo things to emphasize the separateness of the two species' lives in the kingdom, though; it seems the naga are relatively isolated from the Cambodian populace as a whole, which probably doesn't preclude the sort of mystic reverence I've described. The reporter's story bears no indicators of taking place in a warzone; that could mean there was a lull in fighting, or that could be from the cut up, widely separated in time nature of the reporter's observations, or that could be merely meaning that the naga central settlements are extremely well defended, so I'm not sure that's a contradiction. In short, I'm not seeing anything in RW that entirely short circuits this Cambodian civil war setup; calling it the "Naga Kingdom" merely indicates they're running their own shit.[/i]
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Post by Username17 »

Oh is that what you're talking about. The Rotten Apple is... not canon. It had like a dozen authors, virtually no editing, contradicts the actual books in a number of places, and the events in it were never folded into the events timeline or the wiki or anything. Also it never came out in hard copy and never will. It was a rush job after Demonseed Elite walked over non-payment and neglect issues. It's fine if you want to use it... but keep in mind that any event in there is about as official as an event in a Missions adventure or a KaGe issue.

Personally, I full stop do not consider that book to have happened, and I am nothing like alone in that assessment.

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Post by Fucks »

It has been released by CGL, thus it's canon (PDF or not). I'm not saying it's a good book or consistent with the setting, but denying that it's canon is wrong, plain and simple.
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Post by Username17 »

Fucks wrote:It has been released by CGL, thus it's canon (PDF or not). I'm not saying it's a good book or consistent with the setting, but denying that it's canon is wrong, plain and simple.
CGL releases all kinds of things they don't consider canon. Fuck, the novels aren't considered canon. Neither is the videogame. And neither are the pdf-only releases. Fortunately in all cases.

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Post by Fucks »

Novels and the video game (which wasn't released by CGL) are a different breed than sourcebooks.
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Post by Username17 »

Fucks wrote:Novels and the video game (which wasn't released by CGL) are a different breed than sourcebooks.
So? Sourcebooks are also a different breed than net books. You don't honestly think that Missions adventures are considered canon, do you? What the fuck?

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Post by Ancient History »

The Rotten Apple is an example of a problem SR has been facing for some time: a diminishing freelancer pool. Old authors would get bored, burnt out, or pissed about money and leave, and the line dev would then try to get replacements either from the pool of SR Missions writers (who often are familiar with the system and the setting, but aren't terribly good writers) or outside talent (who are often more professional, know less about the setting, and more stringent about being paid).

When the Missions were being set in Denver, the Missions guys at the time (led by John Dunn) put out a synopsis on Denver in a CGL quarterly ezine. When the Missions were moved to Manhattan, it was decided to try a more ambitious tack and let the Missions writers demonstrate their skill by writing a full setting book, PDF-only.

Well, sort of. Actually, Jay Levine (Hong Kong in Runner Havens et al.) was originally slated to write Manhattan, but he ran into some arguments with CGL over money issues. I think. It's been a few years, so I may be mixing up the details. Anyway, the Missions writers were given the chance to write the Rotten Apple, which is why it's a bit of a mess. Generally speaking Missions writers who "graduate" into actual freelancers are few and have a steep learning curve.

I'm not a terribly good person to talk to about this, because I generally hate the Missions campaigns. They were okay when they were free and set in Seattle, but Mission writers are not the cream of the crop - most of them aren't even particularly good at writing adventures - and there are all sorts of artificial restrictions placed on the Missions format to keep the characters in within a certain ill-defined scope. The actual campaigns I've never really liked or understood the intended purpose of.
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Post by Fucks »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Fucks wrote:Novels and the video game (which wasn't released by CGL) are a different breed than sourcebooks.
So? Sourcebooks are also a different breed than net books.
Waitaminute... I don't make a difference between PDF-only sourcebooks and hardcopy sourcebooks. That's it. The Manhattan-PDF is an official release, isn't it? A sourcebook, isn't it?

Missions adventures. Well, how many people actually play that shit? 5? 10?

Netbooks = fan-projects, so what the fuck?
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Post by Username17 »

Anyway, bottom line is that Missions material - including Rotten Apple - is not (thankfully) considered canon and likely won't be referenced anywhere in any future anything even if (no, especially if) someone else comes in to take over Shadowrun and stops sucking so badly. You're welcome to use a character or a plotline if you think it is cool, but remember to take all the "non-canon" material with a grain of salt - sometimes that shit has humans goblinizing into dwarves. And yes, Rotten Apple is a Missions setting compilation piece, which is intended to be compatible with Missions and not the rest of the line necessarily.

Anyway, you have several "core" countries/groups that you need to talk about if you're going to do SE Asia:
  • Nations
  • Burma/Myanmar
  • Cambodia
  • Dega/Degar/Montagnard Alliance/Confederation/Republic/Whatever
  • Naga Kingdom (unnamed but substantiated)
  • Laos
  • Malaysian Federation
  • Pattani
  • Thailand/Siam
  • Vietnam

    Corps
  • ESPRIT
  • Khouang Combine
  • ShinSiam
  • Malaysian Independent Bank
And you'll of course want to talk about interested multinational or regional powers. These will certainly include some megacorps (I would suggest Shiawase first, but you could justify any of them by definition), and may also include such regional power houses as Australia, Japan, Philippines, and the Canton Confederation. Or many others, if for example you decided to have a resurgent Indonesia or a regionally aggressive Shan or Assam.

I can't tell you what is best, I can only tell you things that I personally would do and things that violate material in books we care about violating (as in: books other than Corp Guide, 6WA, and War!). So I can tell you for example that presenting the Naga as being a faction in Cambodia as opposed to being a rival nation with its capital in Angkor contradicts the material in Running Wild. I can tell you that I personally would drop any mention of the Vietnamese North/South combat thing, because I think it's dumb and no one ran with that particular ball anyway.

Here is what I would do:
  • Nations
  • Myanmar
    Having collapsed out of any kind of social order after the rising corruption and internal and external pressures in 2064, Myanmar has gone totally into the warlords stage. Might makes right in Myanmar, and Burmese Trolls are the mightiest there is. Welcome to Trollish Myanmar, the heads on sticks mean "get the fuck out". Yangon is a hellish filth-covered cyberpunk dystopia where there is no law at all and people are bought and sold in public slave auctions. Tamanous world headquarters are in Pathein, and they seriously don't really stand out much. Warlords constantly try to retake the regions that have seceded or been annexed (Tanintharyi, Kachin, Shan, and Chin), putting them into constant struggle with Shan, Kachin, Siam, and Assam.
  • Cambodia
    Having had the northern third of the country secede in the last 9 years, they still have experienced net population growth because a relatively prosperous few years of corporate sponsored investment has reversed the emigration that plagued the nation through the first half of the 21st century. Phnom Penh is now a multinational city of about 3 million people - a majority of whom are foreigners (mostly Javans). Queen Sofie de Rochefort has a monarchist political party that is big in parliament, which in turn allows her to get the country firmly in bed with ESPRIT Industries. Having stabilized the freefall of the economy and domestic unrest problems, Cambodia is finally starting to work towards regaining government control in Ratanakiri - and is seriously considering invading Nag Kampuchea. When all hell breaks loose, Cambodia's hand is forced.
  • Montagnard Confederation
    Here's where you want to go full Princess Mononoke. And I mean straight up having giant monsters from the forest calling the shots and the Montagnards just holding on for dear life while this goes on. Different tribes get different "totems" - which in this case are fully real and extremely large creatures that use shamanic magic. Drop the whole "cutting Vietnam in two" thing as a bad allusion to the Vietnam War that no one liked. Slap them in an outright stalemate with a reasonably straight played Iron Town in Kon Tum. Kon Tum is now walled, and is the bastion of Vietnamese military power and is conducting mining operations that are limited by how far they can get without getting eaten by giant jungle monsters. Bonus points for having some of the totems be corrupted and possibly horror marked.
  • Nag Kampuchea
    Composed of Siem Reap, Oddar Meanchey, Bantey Meanchey, Preah Vihear, and Kampong Thom (all formerly of Cambodia) as well as Buriram, Surin, Sisaket, and the southern half of Roi Et (all formerly of Siam). It's a Hindu monarchy, with a firm caste system with all the Naga castes on top and almost all the human castes on the bottom. Claims to be the descendants of the empire of Patala, which they are reforming. Low caste humans are generally religious fanatics who believe dying in the service of the Naga will get them a better reincarnation. Lower caste Naga are resentful and there is factional infighting. When all hell breaks loose, different Naga princes rally around different different strategies and start prosecuting the war in the different ways.
  • Laos
    Laos kicks the Vietnamese occupation out in 2067. Unfortunately, they still don't actually have a domestic economy, so their new nationalist stance comes with a heavy recession. Within a few years, the country is basically prostrate, and by 2070 has essentially split into a civil war. The sides are the Dai Lao, who want to have closer ties to Siam (either getting more investment from ShinSiam or actually getting annexed by Siam, but in any case: less involvement with the Vietnamese), and the Pathet Lao who want closer ties to Vietnam (mostly involving getting more investment from the Khouang Combine, but possibly including a return of the Vietnamese army).
  • Malaysian Federation
    First off, "The Morgue" is the datahaven that is actually hosting this article, so really the entire piece is "in" Malaysia. Malaysia is a financial giant in the region and is desperately trying to keep things from falling apart any more. As such, they are willing to back whoever appears to be winning. But they are also mostly willing to only do that with financial resources, because their actual armed forces are rather weak.
  • Pattani
    It's an Islamic pirate base. Always has been, always will be. Severely hurt by the creation of the Kra Canal, the pirates now go farther afield and hire themselves out to any of the interested parties who need privateers.
  • Siam
    Having kicked out the military junta after the failure of the military to prevent the Khmer Naga from seizing territory in 2066, the nation has united under a new monarch - Somdet Phra Ramathibodi V. In an attempt to emphasize the nation's multicultural heritage and deep traditions, and also to poke the neo-fascists who had recently been ousted, the country has reverted to being Siam and did a massive demilitarization. However, a few years in, the country got invaded by expansionist nagas and Burmese, and has been on a remilitarization campaign. When all hell breaks loose, they have a nice shiny new military that is almost entirely green headed up by a brand new set of officers since they just fired everyone involved with the coup.
  • Vietnam
    Vietnam should be portrayed as the sleeping giant - the regional power that periodically comes in and kicks everyone's ass if they start too much shit. Recall that Vietnam kicked Cambodia's sand castle over in 1978, 2022, and 2043. They'd totally do it again if too much shit crossed over their borders. They might have left Laos in 2067, but they have as many artillery pieces as the Dai Lao have soldiers, so if they ever get pissed off enough to come flatten the place, the place will be flattened. The Vietnamese haven't lost a war in 150 years, and they've fought pretty much everyone. A big theme I would like to get in there is the idea of "Easternization" - the act of emulating the military powerhouses of Vietnam and Imperial Nippon in the same way that in the 1800s regional monarchies tried to mimic the effective militaries of the European colonials. People like the Montagnards who want to push the Vietnamese back should be portrayed as essentially doomed - the armies of Vietnam are vast, efficient, and essentially unbeatable by any regional force.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

So what is Singapore doing in all of this?
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Post by Username17 »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:So what is Singapore doing in all of this?
Singapore is doing what it always does: hold on for dear life and drop to its knees any time Malaysia unzips its pants. Singapore is a port, and it does a lot of transshipping. But it does a lot less these days, because the Kra Canal got built and now a lot of shipping simply bypasses the Straights of Malacca.

So Singapore is in a weird relationship with Pattani. On the one hand, Malay pirates are one of the major reasons that ships choose to bypass the Straights of Malacca and hurt Singaporean business. On the other hand, the Kra Canal is bad for both Singapore and the Pirates. So Singapore would pay money to sink pirate ships, but they would also pay money to strengthen the pirate fleet if they thought that the pirates could make a credible attack on Surat Thani. Could make for an interesting side piece.

But it is basically a side piece. From the Shadowrunner's standpoint, you have three cities that you go to because you have business to conduct:
  • Yangon is the place you go because you want to go to one of those secondary markets for dubious genetic alterations that you find in Gibson books. It's a bazaar full of wickedness and depravity, and you can sell anything you've stolen or buy anything you need, regardless of the depravity or the heat on the item in question. This is where you go when you need to sell the nuclear device or you need to buy some nerve agent.

    Kuala Lumpur is the place you go when you have or need pay data. Since Denver got shut down by Godzilla penis, The Morgue is the new Data Haven of choice. If you're dealing in ephemerals - currency, information, promises, then this is where you go. If the project goes further and there is an alt.Spy.Games, Kuala Lumpur will be one of the big cities that has plot ideas floating in it. Also has the plus that it's one of the aWoD focus cities and you can liberally rip ideas from that.

    Ho Chi Minh is the place you go when you want hardware. Vietnam is the number one producer of heavy machinery, metal, and ass kicking in the region. Vietnamese tanks and guns are every bit as good as Nipponese varieties. The whole country is basically run by Colonel Santiago from Alpha Centauri crossed with Lady Eboshi from Princess Mononoke. And that means that if you want "superior iron" or "high grade weaponry" - you come to Ho Chi Minh city.
Finally, we are going to have an entirely fictional city. That's right, Roanapur, baby. It's in Trat province, in Siamese territory that is claimed by Nag Kampuchea and Cambodia. Nag Kampuchea wants access to the sea, and it pretty much has to be in Trat. Cambodia wants the damn Cham Yeam Crossing, and in any case the area is practically made out of Cambodian refugees from the first half of the century when life in Cambodia sucked a whole whole lot.

So Roanapur is actually formed from a Khmer refugee camp, which is why it is such a fucking anything goes hell hole. But it's also suddenly strategically valuable to three countries, which means that things are heating up in Roanapur. Use all the Black Lagoon references you want, we'll make more.

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Post by Loki »

I don't know whether this is useful for producing alt.War supplements for South East Asia or Asia in general, but I finished my map that shows the differences between the Almanac world map and an alternative world map I produced:

http://shadowhelix.de/images/6/6d/Karte ... rences.png
http://shadowhelix.de/Datei:Kartendokum ... rences.png

I've already complained enough about this, so I will keep the explanation brief. Catalyst chose to revise a good portion of the Asian geography. It appears to me that the reason for this was solely to make producin the world map for the Almanac easier as they mostly reverted to today's national or administrative borders. I say solely because they did not comment on the alterations in the appropriate sections of the Almanac at all. My alternative world map includes the borders found in Shadows of Asia reproduced to the best of my ability. So the above map shows the differences between SoA and the Almanac for the most part (I have included some minor alterations that Pegasus was allowed to make and I have included the occupation of Lebanon and a small part of Syria by Israel, because that seems to be a deliberate plot-driven choice).

So if alt.War were to build on the Almanac, these alterations would probably have to be explained.

A quick not on reading the map of differences for Asia: Basically the marked bright areas show territory that is reallocated because of a change of the borders. So in SoA this territory belongs to another country than in the Almanac. Country outlines as they appear in the Almanac can be traced along the red and grey-brown lines and as they appear in SoA along the blue and grey-brown lines. So grey-brown lines represent borders that can be found both in SoA and in the Almanac, while red lines only appear in the Almanac and blue lines only appear in my alternative map.
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