alt.War: Turning Anger into productiveness

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Post by Username17 »

raben-aas wrote: Now, when the warzone is urban, I imagine the use of spirits gets very limited very fast, as they can't discern between soldiers and civilians -- but give them a Desert War scenario or set them to watch certain villages and come to the magician when there is murderdeathkill happening all over the place, and you have a pretty decent recon ace up the sleeve.
No better than just issuing people a panic button or throwing down some motion sensors. Magic recon is great for a Shadowrunner team, because you probably care about every single living being in the facility you are hitting. But in a war? There are 6.5 million people in Baghdad and you don't care where they are.

It's a little better in a desert wars scenario, but it still involves a spirit walking back to the mage and verbally telling them where they spotted some people. And assuming that isn't Private Jenkins going to piss on a rock, you still just have a verbal description by a space squid to go on. It's a lot less informative than having motion sensors go off in sector A3 causing some cameras to start relaying images to a data server in Tabasco.
Considering wards -- how effective are these? Comlink versus hacker protection like effective, or new vehicle armor rules versus former antitank gear like effective?
Wards are an astral barrier. Squeezing a spirit through an astral barrier ha a very good chance of disrupting the spirit. So it's kind of like a comlink defense, except that when it wins a single round instead of keeping the spirit out for one round it disrupts the spirit entirely.

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Post by Youth »

If you want a stealth submarine, then all you need is a shop, 12,000 yen and a 14F available mod called rating 6 Signature Masking ...unless you're looking to rewrite Arsenal while you work on this. With 6 levels of masking, the ship wouldn't be detectable by R10 radar until it got within 1 km, and, at that point, the shitty Sensor rules would come into effect. That puts capital ships squarely in the "fucked" category by the rules of the game.

Really, I don't know how you want to twerk this, but you've got to make a decision as to whether you'd rather the work be able to stand on its own in a realistic, logical fashion, or whether you'd rather it fit within the existing wack-a-doo framework of the rest of SR's rules and setting.

Regardless, I'll offer up my services in drawing rough mock-ups of new weapons and gear if you feel the need to add any, since that was one of the obvious failings for this shit CGL release. Don't expect too much detail, like insignias or camo paint. Just basic forms and relative sizes. Everything else can stay in imaginationland.
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Post by Fucks »

Which locations will be covered in this book? The thread at dumpshock is focused on the Atzlan-Amazonia war at the moment, but what other conflicts and cities did we agree on so far?

And hermit: enjoy the work as coordinator between here and dumpshock. :biggrin:
Last edited by Fucks on Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

The shitty sensor and signature rules are part of the vehicle rules, and that means that they need a ground up rethink.
Fucks wrote:Which locations will be covered in this book? The thread at dumpshock is focused on the Atzlan-Amazonia war at the moment, but what other conflicts and cities did we agree on so far?
Yeah, the Dumpshockers are gradually realizing something I realized months ago: Bogotá is in the fucking mountains and is about as easy to invade or invade out of as Switzerland. The writeup in War! acts like the jungle comes right up to the doorstep of the city, but really there are the Andean Fucking Mountains in the way. It's kind of a big deal. Bogotá is a damn dead end. Even if you could somehow manage to invade into Bogotá, there's no way you'll be able to invade out of it. The same mountain ranges that make it easy to keep an army out also make it easy to keep an army in. Bogotá is a valuable enough target to want to own, but it's not the spearhead of anything.

Basically war is the conduction of diplomacy or politics by other means. This means that people fight wars because there is something they want that someone else refuses to give them. Sometimes this can be something noble like "civil rights" or something purely nationalistic like "self determination for this arbitrary group of people". But very frequently it is purely economic - one side wants something (land, resources, slaves, money, whatever) and they are willing to pay less than the other side is wiling to accept for it. Sometimes the other side won't sell it at any price (especially when it's land or slaves that are being bargained for).

So first of all, you want to cover a war zone that is about several different things. A war for market share, a war for resources, a war for empire, a war for better treatment.

And then secondly, every war is different from every other war in how it is fought. Technology, terrain, factions, doctrine, all of these are important, even defining variables. So you're going to want to cover lots of different types of war. The Amazonia-Aztlan war is actually fine as a set piece as far as that goes, because it has mountain conflict, jungle conflict, and urban warfare with formed units versus guerrillas. Obviously, you'd need to recast the objectives to ones that made any sense and draw some battle lines that made any sense at all, of course.

So really you could mix and match. You could do worse than having this be the "Jungle Book" where the set piece wars were the Amazonia-Aztlan War, the Nag Kampuchea-Republic of Cambodia-Siamese War of Succession, the Congolese Conflict Zone, and the War of Samoan Aggression. Compare and contrast different kinds of jungle and how the prosecution of a war differs when goals, doctrines, and available resources are different. Talk about the difference in supply lines when you have different connections to the water (Bogotá is 400 kilometers from the Ocean, while the unification of the Polynesian Kingdoms is happening in the Pacific Theater where everything is naval almost all the time). Alternately you could try to mix and match your terrains, with the extra ones being a clash between the Ottomans and Hungarians in the Baltic, a piece of DesertWars (brought to you by NERPS), and an expansion of Imperial Nippon into Korea and Kamchatka.

It really depends on how focused you want the book to be.

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Post by Username17 »

I took a look at the discussion over on dumpshock. Needs moar cowbell.

Actually, someone really needs to slap some of those people around and give them a bit of shadowrun history. Especially as regards Aztlan. Anyway, here's the history of Bogotá through different books:
  • In Aztlan, which is set in 2056, Aztlan has the mountains all around Bogotá and a forward presence just 50 kilometers north of the city, but Amazonia still claims Bogotá itself. Columbia does not exist, and a Jaguar shapeshifter confidently predicts that Aztlan will never contest Bogotá proper.
  • In Shadows of Latin America, which is set in 2065, Columbia is revealed to be an Aztlaner state, and Bogotá is the capital of that state. Here's the full text:
    Bogotá is the largest city in the Aztlaner state of Colombia, and the staging ground for Aztlan’s military presence outside of Mesoamerica. Consequently, Bogotá is primarily a military town, catering to both Aztlaner and Aztechnology corporate military and intelligence forces. The local community has been steered toward supporting the Aztlaner military presence in terms of miltech (munitions, vehicles and drones, armor), pharmaceuticals (stimulants, antibacterial, and antiviral drugs), and sustenance (dry rations and fortified water). Aztechnology owns all of the coca fields surrounding the city to ensure the products are not misused by local criminal interests.
  • Runner Havens, which is set in 2070 uses the Shadows of Latin America timetable and confirms that there is no independent Columbia.
  • Corporate Enclaves, which is set in 2072, also uses the Shadows of Latin America timetable (explicitly, even mentioning Shadows of Latin America by name to piss off anxious fanboys), and confirms that the Columbian nationalists live inside Aztlan.
  • Jason took over as developer and shit got crazy.
Anyway, a number of things have been said about Aztlan that are not actually true. First of all, they do not work for the Horrors. They use a lot of death magic, but they are not in fact horror puppets. The Aztlan + Horrors plotline was complicated, but it also ended. Parts of it are stupid and it involve various Xanatos Gambits that are fairly far fetched and only work because Immortal Elves and Great Dragons are always right. Here's the short version:
There once was a villain, who went under the name Oscuro or the even more imaginative villain name: Darke. Anyway, he was bad and showed up in the original Threats book. He was the leader of a group called The Bloodmage Gestalt. They were getting money funneled into them for "evil research" by an unnamed secret portfolio inside the Aztechnology corporation, and also had some horror allies. They showed up in various sourcebooks as villains who were doing blood magic and evil research. In Cybertechnology it was confirmed that the results of their evil research were cybermancy techniques and building a "mana bridge" to help the horrors invade our world. Oh noes! This information was collected by Dunkelzahn, who gave it to Harlequin (and several other IEs) with a big bow wrapped around it in the Aztlan sourcebook. Then Harlequin tracked down a group of plucky Shadowrunners and took them on a surrealist metaplanar dungeon crawl culminating in shooting Darke right in the face and murdering a bunch of members of the Bloodmage Gestalt, these events are the campaign book Harlequin's Back. Thereafter, the Bloodmage Gestalt lost their funding and the surviving members were mostly shot in the face by Aztechnology as some sort of loose ends clearing action; though it was later confirmed that some of the Blood Mage Gestalt members escaped and was last seen working for MCT. Dunkelzahn then did a giant blood magic ritual where he died and turned into a spirit and possessed a cyberzombie and made a magic artifact that sealed all the other potential bridge locations, thereby bringing the Horror Invasion plotline to a close for the next thousand years. That was the Dragonheart Trilogy, which is actually pretty stupid, but at least it ended the Horror Invasion plotline so we could get back to the morally gray stuff that Shadowrun is actually about. And finally, between Augmentation and Portfolio of a Dragon, we discover that the person controlling the secret monetary portfolio within Aztechnology was... Dunkelzahn the whole time.

So.... no. Aztechnology was never "pro-horror" and they aren't "pro-horror right now either. They are just fascists who are really into public execution and Mesoamerican fashion. And the entire quadruple-cross to stop the horrors happened to play out in Aztlan because that is a place where you could sacrifice a very large number of people for dubious research and still keep that a secret from the public.
As for Great Dragons in Aztechnology, yes. They have names One of them is Inti Jiwana, who is a Great Eastern Dragon who is known to have aura scars from horror claws (Aztlan, p. 68). The other is Chico Aze, who is a Great Feathered Serpent of whom almost nothing is known besides the name and the fact that he has developed an interest in cybermancy (Augmentaion) For those keeping track at home, Chico Aze is a Nahua name meaning "The Sun" (although for conspiracy theorists, it specifically refers to the sun that is overhead during the fifth world, not the current sun), and presumably comes from somewhere around Tenochtitlan, while Inti Jiwana is a Quechua name, and presumably comes from Ecuador or Peru. It means "Eclipse", but in the suitably florid language of Quechua it more specifically means "The Jaguar That Swallows The Sun".

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Post by raben-aas »

I could rant about just how much I hate the SR-ED-link and all plots connected to it ... but what's the point.

(I have heard game preferences may vary...)
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Post by Kot »

Raben, if you could have two of your favorite games brought together, would you go for it? ;P
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Post by raben-aas »

Not so sure. Battlelords of the twenty-Third Century and Shadowrun would actually work pretty good, Paranoia and In Nomine may be a little confusing, but surely fun, Killzone and Pac-Man, however...
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Post by fectin »

FrankTrollman wrote: The shitty sensor and signature rules are part of the vehicle rules, and that means that they need a ground up rethink.
Things in water are a bit different than air. It is entirely reasonable to suppose that that sensor masking simply does not consider sonar, or even simply listening. Also, if a carrier is worried about subs, there are sonabouys in the water. A lot of them. The submarine will be inside a kilometer of an actual sensor, starting way far away from the ship.
Point being, when that rewrite happens, subs don't have to be a special case.
FrankTrollman wrote: Bogotá is in the fucking mountains and is about as easy to invade or invade out of as Switzerland.
Just because their rationale is crap, doesn't make Bogotá a bad target, even strategically; it sounds like an ideal forward airbase and supply depot. Also, that interpretation sets up scenarios that players can care about.
FrankTrollman wrote: Basically war is the conduction of diplomacy or politics by other means.
I like Clausewitz too, though his book is a bit dense. He does break war down thoroughly enough that you could build an actual mechanical system out of it though, basically just by writing up stats.
I read this passage slightly differently though. He spends the rest of that section talking about the importance of knowing when to start and stop fighting, and exactly how much force to apply (answer: all of it, every time you have the advantage). While what you said is true, your summary loses the most important part: why.
FrankTrollman wrote: So first of all, you want to cover a war zone that is about several different things. A war for market share, a war for resources, a war for empire, a war for better treatment.
...which is why this is bad. The less concrete your objective is, the less achievable it is.
FrankTrollman wrote: Talk about the difference in supply lines when you have different connections to the water (Bogotá is 400 kilometers from the Ocean, while the unification of the Polynesian Kingdoms is happening in the Pacific Theater where everything is naval almost all the time). Alternately you could try to mix and match your terrains, with the extra ones being a clash between the Ottomans and Hungarians in the Baltic, a piece of DesertWars (brought to you by NERPS), and an expansion of Imperial Nippon into Korea and Kamchatka.

It really depends on how focused you want the book to be.
It sounds to me like it might be better to leave ships and naval combat out of this one. They're complex enough to take a lot of space, and thematically different enough that they could make an interesting book on their own.
Last edited by fectin on Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

fectin wrote:...which is why this is bad. The less concrete your objective is, the less achievable it is.
I wasn't saying that you should have a war for several different things, but that you should have a (different) war (in the book) for each of several different things. So for example, let's say you included the chapter "You Say Crusade, I Say Jihad." It's about a war starting up between the Ottomans and Hungary. The primary rallying cries in both cases are religious. The Eastern Patriarch of Istanbul has fled to Serbia, and the Archbishop of Esztergom-Budapest has called for a Crusade against the Muslims in the Balkans. Meanwhile, the New Islamic Jihad has a replacement for Sayyid Mujtaba Musawa, and have called all able bodied men to retake the Balkans for the True Faith.

But for both Hungary and the Empire, murdering heretics is basically just a circus to keep the masses occupied. They don't really give a fuck. Both powers are expansionistic, which is their actual goal. Each country wants to expand into as much area as they can, using any historical precedent or fait accompli as needed. Hungary would consider it victory if they could regain the extent of their empire from the crown union period, and the Turks would consider it a victory if they could conquer their old possessions in the Balkans to link up all the Islamic regions (Albania, Bosnia, Kosovo, and so on) under the flag of the Sultan. So really, it's possible for both countries to get to a total victory together, but they both need to play the religious fanaticism cards and have the boogey man of the other one in order to successfully occupy all the area that they want.

That is, in order to invade the Macedonian area next to Albania, they need to get religious fanatics on their own side go Jihad against it. And in order to be allowed to bring troops in to occupy Albania itself, they need the specter of the Crusaders to get Albania to invite them in. Hungary is in pretty much the same boat, but swap in that they need Christian fanatics to go over the wall in Tataria, and need the threat of Turks to get invited in to protect Wallachia.

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Post by Username17 »

Anyway, on the project itself: you need a style guide. It's really important. When the entire project comes together, you want to be using the same sorts of spelling and the same general format. It's not just as simple as "do what Shadowrun does" because the style guides have morphed over the years. Classically, Shadowrun has used the plural "dwarfs" but in SR4 they have started also using the plural "dwarves" in some places. Switching back and forth between the two spellings in a single book is bad.

Since this is a netbook, I would suggest using a format very similar to what you see in Ends of the Matrix, with the additional caveat of having the authorial voice be a jackpoint posting with comments and a defined Game Information section where you put the stat lines. That means that you'll want a section to look something like this:
This Is The Chapter Title
"This is where we put a pithy comment that will be the tag line for the entire chapter."

We are going to have an introduction. Introductions are important because people want to know what they are getting in to. They are vitally important for a net-book, because the reader won't be familiar with the format and will want to know if this book is "worth reading". Since it is unofficial, the book has to sell itself with its ideas and presentation, and can't get people to pay money for it merely on the basis of power creep.

This Is The Title Of The Section
"Here is where we put an eye-catching and pithy comment related to the topic."
Posted By: The Name of a Character In-World

This is where the body of the text goes. We speak directly to the reader in this section, but we assume that the reader is someone who exists within the Shadowrun world, just as the author of this section is also someone who is in-world. While the actual author and reader are both people living 65 years before the current events of Shadowrun, this section is written as if both author and reader were living in the 2070s. That means that the context of the written text has to be one that excuses giving the reader the kind of information they need. It could be a primer for mercenaries from a different continent, or a corporate historical analysis segment, or some other thing where it is plausible that the fictional author would feel the need to tell the fictional reader the things that the actual author needs to know about the subject.

This section is going to be in multiple paragraphs. Because the intended viewership is on a computer screen rather than in a book, it is customary to mark paragraph breaks with a double break - that is an empty line between paragraphs, and no indentation at the beginning. This is because your reader is going to be adjusting their text size and font for better personal legibility, and you have no way of guarantying that other standards of paragraph notation (such as initial tabs) are going to be comprehensible to your reader.
  • After dropping a particularly juicy hint, you can underline it by having a JackPointer comment on it. Remember to have them stay in character and consistent through the work.
  • Name of the specific JackPointer making the comment
  • You can have more than one JackPointer weigh in on some issue, but remember that too many comments in a chain breaks the flow of the "main" document, so if you want to have a real JackPointer conversation, stick it at the end of the section.
  • Name of another JackPointer
Once you've used a JackPointer comment, your next paragraph of the main text is going to go on as if the JackPointer never said anything. Remember that within the fictional world, the entire document was written and posted, and the JackPointers added their comments afterwards. So this paragraph should make narrative sense both with the JackPointer comments (as the actual reader will actually see them) and without the comments (as the piece was supposedly written). If you can't make the piece work both ways, the JackPoint comment has to get binned, no matter how clever or spooky it is.

Subsections Also Get Titles
"Subsections should also get pithy lead-in tag lines."

A subsection is virtually by definition written and posted by the same hand that made the main section it is part of. This means that it doesn't need a "posted by" tagline on it. Subsections can be about anything, and you can even have a JackPoint comment in there somewhere that there were other irrelevant subsections that have been cut out by the SysOp in order to get to the "good stuff". In this manner you can make it totally plausible for there to be a great big cognitive gap between the main section or the previous subsection and this one. But while acceptable, it is lazy. If at all possible, you should get the previous piece to fit with this piece like a link in a chain.

A subsection doesn't have to have more than one paragraph, you could have a subsection that was just a single standalone thought or a description of some minor element that you wanted to include but didn't have room for in the conceptual space of one of the other sections. But if you do produce multiple paragraphs, use the same formatting as you would for a main section. Remember: only the heading of a subsection is reduced, otherwise treat is as a normal section.

Also, stay in-character! A subsection isn't a place to put game information unless it is a subsection in the Game Information chapter (p. XX). For now, we are going to use Page XX placeholders as a joke, but if this gets compiled into a pdf rather than staying as a forum post, the typesetter will actually fix those XX references to genuine numbers or even links.
  • Once the section is completely finished, you can go hogwild with JackPointer conversations, because they aren't interrupting anything. Just like they did in Aztlan and Cybertechnology with the big flame wars at the end.
  • JackPointer Name
  • It's probably tempting to use shout-outs to various friends or in-jokes to your gaming group in the JackPoint comments. Don't do it. It's hard enough getting characters to have enough voice time that we can know them or care what they say, and joke-named one-off posters make that even more difficult.
  • JackPointer Name
  • Remember, this book is about Shadowrun, not Barsaive. Earthdawn references are frankly kind of annoying and you should keep them to a minimum. Frosty and Man of Many Names are annoying characters and people hate them. The even more know-it-all characters like Laughing Man and Wordsmyth were even more annoying, which is a big reason for them being dropped from the posting roster for SR4. Do not bring them back.
  • JackPoint Name
  • I'm totally serious. Don't turn your draft into some crappy "A Beutiful Mind" knockoff where you make connections between a bunch of crazy crap in the histories of Shadowrun and Earthdawn. You're here to tell a story in the fictional Shadowrun setting, not to show how many Earthdawn supplements you personally have read.
  • JackPoint Name
  • Earthdawn magic really isn't that good anyway. Shadowrun magicians are much more powerful than Earthdawn magicians. Not only do they cast many times faster and have spell effects go much longer distances, but basic starting Shadowrun magical effects have a tendency to be 7th circle in Earthdawn. The actual stats on Great Dragons really aren't that impressive either. Things having magical effects from Earthdawn would generally speaking not even matter a tiny little bit to a 6th world military. There are some exceptions, but those exceptions are rare.
  • JackPoint Character

Something like that. Hell, you could use exactly that as part of your style guide.

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Post by fectin »

What's the distinction between "JackPoint Name" and "JackPoint Character"?

On that note, what standards do you prefer for quotes, punctuation, punctuation in quotes, etc.?
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Post by Antumbra »

I imagine the difference is that Fastjack is a "Name" and Wolfram, the tungsten expert who comes in to talk about biological armour plating is a "Character".

Just as an aside - the Matrix rules in Unwired are bad. So bad that they will make sensible rules for Military Cyberwarefare bad/impossible, but connecting this to something like Ends or making up completely new rules ala the possible vehicle combat section may lower the instant readability.
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Post by hermit »

Yes, though I fully agree, the Matrix rules ARE bad. But we want thios to be a rewrite of War!, which is enough of an effort, not the entire Edition. While it may be in order, it would be too herculean a task for a web project.

We could propose Ends as alternative rules and provide stats for Ends too, but I must admit I'm not at all familiar with those rules and couldn't write those stats.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Antumbra wrote:Just as an aside - the Matrix rules in Unwired are bad. So bad that they will make sensible rules for Military Cyberwarefare bad/impossible, but connecting this to something like Ends or making up completely new rules ala the possible vehicle combat section may lower the instant readability.
There's probably a decent amount of material in Ends that you'd want to use anyway, but keeping the two independent when possible is probably the way to go.
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Post by Orca »

fectin wrote:Just because their rationale is crap, doesn't make Bogotá a bad target, even strategically; it sounds like an ideal forward airbase and supply depot. Also, that interpretation sets up scenarios that players can care about.
That high up you're going to have real problems using helicopters, LAVs and other fun aircraft from SR. It might be better to pretend that all the references to Bogota were a misunderstanding and they actually meant ... wherever you choose to base alt.war
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Post by Stahlseele »

raben-aas wrote:Not so sure. Battlelords of the twenty-Third Century and Shadowrun would actually work pretty good, Paranoia and In Nomine may be a little confusing, but surely fun, Killzone and Pac-Man, however...
i still say they should clean up battlerun and sell it . . that and the dragon PC Rules . . because those were BOTH better than WAR . .
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Post by Username17 »

fectin wrote:What's the distinction between "JackPoint Name" and "JackPoint Character"?
No difference at all. I was just tired of writing JackPoint Name over and over again. Although yeah, I get sick and tired of people fapping to rediscovery of Earthdawn magical techniques in Shadowrun. For fuck's sake: in just 18 seconds you might be able to get off a Fire Engulf or an Astral Perception... if you get to seventh circle. Those are abilities that everyone has in Shadowrun at chargen and take 3 seconds.
On that note, what standards do you prefer for quotes, punctuation, punctuation in quotes, etc.?
Those standards are not important save that they are standardized. I would suggest:

When ending a sentence with something in air quotes, put the "period outside".
"If you are quoting an entire sentence, the period goes inside the quotation marks."
When using an ellipsis... use three actual periods rather than the ellipsis character. This is a change from Shadowrun's old styleguide, but seriously
most of your authors don't know how to generate the ellipsis symbol.
Use the word "dwarves" to pluralize people of the Dwarf metatype.
Capitalize Each Word in a title or subject heading, but don't capitalize for emphasis.
Use italics for emphasis instead.
When referring to a specific book, bold the name of the book. Then put a colon (also bold) and the page number as not bold. So you might have "Magic in the Shadows: page 138". If that's a parenthetical remark, such as a citation, put it into parentheses, like this:
"This technomancer is a Pythagorean (Ends of the Matrix: page 9)."
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With all the talk about the Amazonia-Aztlan War, it actually looks like Megu is farther ahead on the Southeast Asia material. Here is that:
I've been wanting for a long time to do something with the hilltribe/forest spirit vs Vietnamese Army conflict in Vietnam. SEAsianstudies/linguistics student working on Hmong culture and language, so it's pretty close to home. I'm on break now, so I can actually contribute. I'll get some writing done on this over the next two weeks or so, but as for a brief overview?

Basically, the feel of the fighting out in the Annam Cordillera I'm looking for is Princess Mononoke meets Platoon, while in Saigon itself it's more The Quiet American. The forest spirits basically want resource exploiters out, and are willing to use the hilltribes for that end. The hilltribes, for their part, want to grow in political relevance compared to the lowland peoples, and are happy to use the spirits' magical punch to do that. Their strategy is to try and cut Vietnam in two along the Truong Son mountains in central Vietnam, between Hue and Da Nang, hoping the pro-democratic and pro-corporate rebel groups in southern Vietnam and Saigon especially will use that opportunity to declare their independence, and they'll have neutralized the biggest nearby military threat to the nascent spirit nation in Laos by cutting it in half. Obviously, the Vietnamese and their Russian and Aztlaner backers don't want this to happen. So far it's been a stalemate; the hit and run attacks a spirit army is good at is not a good way to break major fortifications around Hue and Da Nang, but at the same time, the hilltribes have hardly any infrastructure to target and armies sent up into the mountains tend to get chewed up for little gain. Aztlan has its own war on now, though, so the Dega Alliance of spirits and hilltribes sees a chance and is likely to get bold.

Other factions have their own agendas on this. A lot of the independence movement in the south is driven by the Chinese community in Saigon and the Cholon Triad there. Cholon, a poorer, more Chinese area of western Saigon, is a hotbed of insurgency, and the Triads are everywhere the way the secret police are everywhere else. This is a bit ironic given that the relationship between China and Hmong and other hill people has generally not been good. Similarly, part of the reason the hill tribes have what gear they do is from Hmong and other ethnic syndicates in the UCAS Midwest and the CFS, who sell opiates grown in Dega Alliance territory and send back weapons.

The corps are divided on the whole situation. On the one hand, the Khouang Combine, Vietnam's state-corp, has pretty much locked out everybody but Aztechnology from Vietnam's economy. And that means the other corps would be happy to see the rebels in the south have their chance to declare independence and open up south Vietnam's economy to them. At the same time, though, Ares and Monobe in particular have been involved in resource struggles in Laos for a long time, and the Dega Alliance, if successful, might lock them out of those resources. So Ares is of two minds, the Azzies are solidly behind the Vietnamese regime, and others who hate the Azzies and have no interest in Laos' resources, like, say, Horizon, might be very much behind the hilltribes. Amazonia might be sympathetic as well to an Awakened state threatening Azzie interests.

I haven't quite figured out where some other factions fit in: the Naga in Cambodia, the Canton Confederation, Kalokdam, et al. Still thinking about it.

Also thinking about plot hooks. I feel like a second Battle of Hue reminiscent of the Tet Offensive one could be cool. Want at least one war-related intrigue adventure in Saigon, that Quiet American feel I was talking about. And definitely at least one needs to focus on the Awakened element.

Does this look like a potentially interesting chapter thus far? What in particular should I elaborate on?
That being said, I would still put that par, not in Vietnam, but in the three way battle between Nag Kamuchea, The Republic of Cambodia, and Thailand. You get plenty of Hmong on that side of the peninsula if that's what you want out of life, but you also get to have an established multifactional throwdown in the jungle with established forces.

Here's what you have:
  • Thailand, which may indeed be called either Ayutthaya or Siam at this point, is an expansionary parliamentary monarchy that is in bed with with local A-ranked corp Shinsiam and various Japanese megacorps. The monarchy is Garuda-aligned.
  • Nag Kampuchea, which is a despotic monarchy run by the seven headed Great Naga Vasuki. As of Running Wild, they had successfully established a throne in Angkor. They hate Garudas for obvious reasons, but also they view themselves as the rightful owners of everywhere that Khmer people are - including the rest of Cambodia, Burma, and even Nagaland.
  • The Dega Alliance, which is a region that extends through modern day Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, and Vietnam, which is an unrecognized state of hill tribes backed by forest spirits. They are allied with Nag Kampuchea to an extent.
  • Finally, the corporate backed Republic of Cambodia, kept on life support by intervention by the French army and led by Queen Sophie de Rochefort (formerly of Esprit Industries).
You have other interested parties (the nations of Vietnam and Laos, for example), but the main battle lines are around Angkor. It mostly boils down to the fact that almost every metahuman in the area is considered to be mythologically associated with Nagas or Garudas. The Khmer (most of the people in Cambodia) supposedly have a tribal existence because of the Naga. The Kadai people (that's Thai and Lao) exist as a tribe because of the Garuda. This means that the king of Thailand can snap his fingers and raise an army because the Garudas listen to him and Kadai people listen to people that Garudas listen to. Vasuki can his with any of his seven heads and raise an army, because Khmer people listen when a Naga hisses. Sophie de Rochefort is Queen of Cambodia because he has Preah Khan, which is the damn Excalibur of Cambodia. But even that exists because it was a gift - from the Naga. So when Vasuki says that Preah Khan "doesn't count" anymore, a lot of people listen. Even hough Queen Sophie can raise her sword on high and make the Mekong flow backward.

Then we get to the Dega Alliance. They don't actually worship Naga or Garudas, and they don't feel that their right to own land flows from those magic beasts.They are ancestor worshipers who live in the wilderness and want to keep nature preserved. So they are provisionally allied with Nag Kampuchea, because the Naga are mostly pretty low tech and oppose corporate exploitation. But it can't really last, because the Dega are disrespectful. The Naga are really big on humans being "lower" than Naga are, and the fact that the Dega don't actually regard them as superior to humans is a huge sore point in their relationship. To the Naga, alliance with the Dega Alliance is a military necessity but ideologically untenable.

Add to the mix some interference by the corporate backed and violently pro-metahuman fascist state of Vietnam and the just plan violent Malaccan Pirates, and you have yourself a good warzone where players can take mercenary contracts from different factions to do different stuff.

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Post by Username17 »

For an example of what I mean for an Introduction, try this:

The Nag Kampuchean War of Succession
"That many heads on poles usually means 'Keep Out'."

Nag Kampuchea is a nation that occupies a border region between modern day Cambodia and Thailand, with its capital in Angkor. It is a quasi-Hindu monarchy that is known throughout the world as "The Naga Kingdom" because everyone in a leadership position in the country is a Naga. And because there is confusion in that part of the world (Naga also being a group of people who have their own country called Nagaland), we are talking about the giant snakes. Nag Kampuchea has historically had incredibly bad relations with its neighbors, gaining recognition as a state only after years of low-intensity warfare with its neighbors (The Republic of Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, and then Siam after Thailand changed its name again). Recently, conflict has escalated and looks to escalate even further as the monarch of Nag Kampuchea (the seven headed Nagaraja known as Vasuki) has been assassinated. Recriminations and reprisals abound, and the distinctly noticeable power vacuum has pushed all interested parties into a war footing.

This chapter describes the escalating conflict in the region and how it affects the nations in the region as well as several the non-governmental organizations such as The Four Winds Triad and interested corporations such as Esprit Industries. Finally, it describes how war is fought in the region, focusing on the doctrines, equipment, and personnel being used by the various belligerents. The format is similar to that of official Shadowrun books, with an in-character section that is posted and commented upon by characters in the world of 2073 who have knowledge and viewpoints relevant to interests of Shadowrunners and mercenaries who may wish to find gainful employment in and around the growing war in Indochina. Thereafter is a section of game information that presents rules and ideas to incorporate these events into your game.

Regional information is primarily about the directly affected nations: Siam, Nag Kampuchea, The Montagnard Confederation, and The Republic of Cambodia. But it also offers more limited information about regions that are peripherally affected: Vietnam, Laos, Myanmar, Pattani, and Malaysia. Corporations of interest in the region are Esprit Industies, Shinsiam, Aztechnology, Wuxing, Shiawase, the Khouang Combine, and the Malaysian Independent Bank. Underworld organizations getting written about include the Four Winds Triad, the Yellow Lotus Triad, the Jinsalih pirate ring, the Inagawa-gumi, the Pa Cheol-Gom, and Tamanous. Active mercenary units with writeups in this section include MET2000, 10,000 Daggers, Alia, and Optimal Solution Services. These are by no means the only agencies involved, as the war has already affected the lives of tens of millions of people, but these are the organizations who will get descriptive subsections in this work.

Your introduction is going to tell the reader the basics of what the hell is going on, as well as why they would want to read it, how to go about reading it, and what they can expect to find in it. You're going to need to have some big events go down to explain why the heck people are shooting at each other and marching soldiers around. Stylistically you're going to want to put at least one of those big events front and center in your introduction in order to reach out and grab the reader by the face. Ideally the event you choose for a lead-in should be one that would seem like an actual flashpoint for conflict. So you wouldn't start the Amazonia-Aztlan War with "As Aztlan continues to send Mexican landscapers to plant trees and trim hedges around Aztech bases of operations..." you'd do something like "As construction of a space elevator begins on Mount Pichincha..."

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Post by hermit »

Frank wrote:No difference at all. I was just tired of writing JackPoint Name over and over again. Although yeah, I get sick and tired of people fapping to rediscovery of Earthdawn magical techniques in Shadowrun. For fuck's sake: in just 18 seconds you might be able to get off a Fire Engulf or an Astral Perception... if you get to seventh circle. Those are abilities that everyone has in Shadowrun at chargen and take 3 seconds.
I agree. the only 'interesting' magic from ED I can think of is Netherwalking, and that would totally break the game (even though Technomancers can do Resonance Netherwalking already).

The interesting stuff from ED, as far as I am concerned, is the Indiana Jones stuff. Sunken cities, forgotten tombs, that kind of stuff. And Artifacts of Weird that do Weird Shit. That's what the crossover mostly is good for.

ED magics indeed are mostly pretty lame. Or rather, SR is a very high-powered setting; a Space Marine wouldn't really stand out in a standard shadowrunner team, save for his east-and-absorb implant and the fact his balls are in his neck. SR mages are superior to Jedi, Psykers (mostly in that they don't explode all the time), ED adepts, D&D mages up to a certain degree ... all at chargen.
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Post by Sir Neil »

FrankTrollman wrote:Anyway, one of the things that should really be done in a war sourcebook is to write new combat rules. That means that you probably want to do something like the damage system like the one in AWOD.
What drawbacks would there be for just dropping AWOD combat whole cloth into Shadowrun?
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Post by Kot »

Hermit, Netherwalking involves a lot of risk, and it would even in SR. There's no astral corruption, but passing through shifting background counts would be painful, i think.
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Post by hermit »

But it still would make the whole idea of shadowrunning obsolete for anyone who doesn't happen to be a mage. Well, Technomancers already do that for the Matrix.
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Post by Kot »

It was a Talent, so should be available to Adepts.
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Post by hermit »

Wasn't it something like 9th circle nethermancer stuff?
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