Dominion of the Den

[Kaelik]

So Frank... you think it's just fine to use your magic to mess with someone, potentially to the point of doing some very serious damage, and don't see that as any breach of non-aggression.

If they decide that they don't like what you're doing to them, and decide that their most viable response is a military invasion, then you feel that you've been wronged... and wronged badly enough to knock over the board, despite the fact that the 'agreement' you made was inherently non-binding, and you yourself evidently feel free to violate such agreements at will if it benefits you.

To summarize, you play by your own rules entirely, and if you find it 'unfair' what someone else has done to you at any given point, you totally feel free to ignore and violate all agreements you have with them. Of course, them doing the same thing to you for equivalently good reasons is totally bullshit, and worth quitting the game over.

So is your contention that Cthulu broke the pact after Frank dispelled a global, something that isn't pact breaking?

Or is your position that Cthulu broke the pact by casting a Global that aggressively hurt Frank?

Either globals aren't pact breaking, in which case, Cthulu broke the pact. Or they are, in which case, Cthulu broke the pact.

[internet_superbot]

haha, you three are close to certifiable.

after Frank dispelled a global, something that isn't pact breaking?

that is not for you to decide. If someone were to dispell my global, I would certainly consider it an attack, and sufficient reason for immediate response. As Cthulhu said, he consulted other experienced players and they agreed.

Or is your position that Cthulu broke the pact by casting a Global that aggressively hurt Frank?

that's one of Frank's craziest phantasms. Weren't the two globals earthblood well and gift of health? I would love you to demonstrate your deep knowledge of dominion mechanics in demonstrating how those actively harm? No one buys that shit, even at giveaway prices.

Either globals aren't pact breaking, in which case, Cthulu broke the pact. Or they are, in which case, Cthulu broke the pact.

and even if one accepted he did, so what?

[angelfromanotherpin]

Frankly, I'm surprised it took so long for people to start stabbing each other in the back. Victory at all costs and all that.

Sort of. When you play in a community, you get a rep regarding whether your word is any good or not. And the short-term advantage of betrayal is worth less than the long-term advantage of credibility.

[jimbojones1971]

Sort of. When you play in a community, you get a rep regarding whether your word is any good or not. And the short-term advantage of betrayal is worth less than the long-term advantage of credibility.

Yes, this is one of the more interesting phenomena that occur in a relatively closed ecosystem such as Dom3 MP. As the number of communities that play it is relatively small, likewise the number of players, if you play it a lot your reputation will indeed proceed you.

[cthulhu]

So is your contention that Cthulu broke the pact after Frank dispelled a global, something that isn't pact breaking?

Or is your position that Cthulu broke the pact by casting a Global that aggressively hurt Frank?

Dispelling a [passive, gem gen] global is pact breaking, imho, and as agreed by the sample I consulted prior to the attack.

[Zinegata]

Kaelik, stop trying to dictate what is or what is not an act of war in a game you're not actually in.

The game (Dominion) itself sees other people's mere existence as an act of war. In that kind of environment lots of things can set off World War 3.

I've been fucked over in Risk-style games plenty of times. The most memorable was when I was South America and had a NAP with North America. I was about to win decisively (controlling Africa, Australia, and Asia) on the last turn when the other guy suddenly broke the NAP. He took everything except South America - which he could have done so anyway. When I asked him why, he reminded me that:

"Well, actually, what you said was "If I don't attack North America, you won't attack South America. So I am actually abiding by our treaty to the letter"".

And you know what? It's totally cool even though I didn't think the NAP should have worked that way. It's just a game.

So, anyway, if Frank's not playing, can I try joining in the next one? More newbie fodder .

[Ganbare Gincun]

Frankly, I'm surprised it took so long for people to start stabbing each other in the back. Victory at all costs and all that.

Sort of. When you play in a community, you get a rep regarding whether your word is any good or not. And the short-term advantage of betrayal is worth less than the long-term advantage of credibility.

Unfortunately, most people care less about their perceived credibility then they do about being perceived as a loser. For some, victory is everything, even if it's a Pyrric Victory. Ever read Dogfight by William Gibson?

But yeah, combine that with the fact that Frank and K are high-prestige targets and the grim reality of the Internet Dickwad Theory, and hey, daggers in the back all around!

[Zinegata]

But yeah, combine that with the fact that Frank and K are high-prestige targets and the grim reality of the Internet Dickwad Theory, and hey, daggers in the back all around!

Eh, I think that's a bit unfair. Especially to cthulu - I think he had a pretty good case that Frank had already broken the NAP. And I don't exactly see any of them running around saying "Wohoo! I beat Frank!"

The real issue with this game is that K and Frank were treating it as a learning game. They weren't playing for keeps, but instead saw this as an opportunity to teach other players how to play Dominion properly.

The problem is that two of the players were playing for keeps, which got K knocked out pretty early and sent Frank into angry mode. When cthulu - who had hitherto been playing a learning game too - suddenly became an aggressive power, Frank saw this as yet another "betrayal" of their attempt to run a learning game and thus rage quit.

I'm not faulting Frank or K for quitting or feeling betrayed, because playing a learning game does entail a bit of good will on their part and it sucks to have it blow up on your face.

But demonizing the other guys is also pretty bad sport, because it was clear rather early on that they were out to win. And it's also pretty bad sport to rage over what cthulu did, because to be blunt dispelling a global enchantment does constitute a hostile act in my book - and a lot of other player's books as well.

Moreover, as somebody who plays a LOT more multiplayer games than the average player (including a lot of Ameritrash), even without the global dispelling cthulu should have attacked Frank. Everyone should have. As a matter of principle.

Like it or not being the biggest country on the board is in itself an act of war already if you're playing to win. Kill the leader before he kills you all. That cthulu actually waited for an overtly hostile act from Frank before attacking was actually a pretty honorable thing for him to do already.

TL;DR: Next time, if it's a learning game, make it explicit.

[Username17]

So is your contention that Cthulu broke the pact after Frank dispelled a global, something that isn't pact breaking?

Or is your position that Cthulu broke the pact by casting a Global that aggressively hurt Frank?

Dispelling a [passive, gem gen] global is pact breaking, imho, and as agreed by the sample I consulted prior to the attack.

This is horse shit. You do not get to pick and choose which globals are treated differently from others. Every global is an assault on the world. Every global hurts everyone else. Every global is to one extent or another fucking with the other players.

If you cast an expensive global. or you cast a global when the list is nearly full, you should expect it to be dispelled - because that's how the globals economy works. Some globals have a reputation for making things really hard for other players and will draw dispels faster. Utterdark, Forge of the Ancients, and Astral Corruption will all cause players to lose their shit. But they all draw dispels, and neither the casting nor the dispelling constitutes an attack.

To summarize, you play by your own rules entirely, and if you find it 'unfair' what someone else has done to you at any given point, you totally feel free to ignore and violate all agreements you have with them.

No. I take agreements incredibly seriously. Hyper honor and all that shit. If people break agreements, I will punish them, as people, in any way I possibly can.

You told me that the thing I had agreed to "didn't count" and that I didn't have a deal with you. Need I remind you:

One, we never actually agreed to that one, as you said something to the extent of not actually wanting to give up all the provinces I actually wanted, and so I sent you a message back saying fine, no deal.

So after I gave you all the provinces I said you could have, you told me that there wasn't a deal. So I burned your empire to the ground. What the fuck did you think would happen?

But the bottom line is: I really have no interest in playing with pact breaking scum. Yeah, I could probably fight off Atlantis, and I can kill your god. It's not worth it though, because there is only one other player left in the game who has negotiated in good faith, and he is almost as marginal bullshit as internet superbot.

Punishing Cthulhu is important, but fighting him and winning wouldn't do that. We were the top two positions, so logically he was going to declare war on me sooner rather than later. If he was playing smart, he would have declared war that turn. And then we would have had a pretty similar showdown. However, walking away hurts Cthulhu. And that's important, because punishing people for negotiating in bad faith is more important than winning games.

So I walked away from the board. It's easy.

-Username17

[cthulhu]

[quote="FrankTrollman]
This is horse shit. You do not get to pick and choose which globals are treated differently from others. Every global is an assault on the world. Every global hurts everyone else. Every global is to one extent or another fucking with the other players.

If you cast an expensive global. or you cast a global when the list is nearly full, you should expect it to be dispelled - because that's how the globals economy works.
[/quote]

No, you're taking your bat and ball and going home because you hold a definition that doesn't comply with community norms and complaining when people don't agree with you.

[internet_superbot]

you're a bully, a fool, and an ass.

[Zinegata]

No, you're taking your bat and ball and going home because you hold a definition that doesn't comply with community norms and complaining when people don't agree with you.

... Yeah, after that rant it's pretty much impossible to give Frank any sympathy.

Ironically, I'm also a "never break an agreement" sort of player. And I do advocate going after people who wronged you within the game.

But I don't expect other people to follow my own code, nor do I take these arguments beyond the game. What happens in the game, stays in the game.

Taking a feud outside of a game is just the hallmark of an incredibly immature player.

-------

Anyway, can I join in the next game now? Or am I too much damaged goods?

[Korwin]

Declared the game finished.

[Zinegata]

Declared the game finished.

Will there be a next one? CanI join?

[Korwin]

Why not?
LA next?

Who want to organize it?
I could do it again, if nobody steps forward.

[Zinegata]

Yay!

I'm good with LA.

I can probably play Ermor, Ulm, Man, or Maringon. But these are just my preferences based on the ones I've tried out, I'm not going "dibs" on any of them yet.

[K]

I'd play an LA game as long as Internet_superbot is not in it.

How about Gath?

[jimbojones1971]

I'm keen, and will play with anyone.

We can sort nation preferences once we've got the number of players sorted.

Which map?

[Korwin]

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=52001

[Akula]

I have my computer issues sorted, I'd play. If late age is the preference I guess I would go for Utgard, maybe Marignon.

[Trumanator]

Damn, I can't believe the dominions headcases are all finding themselves to the same place!

Acting as if there is only one way to treat globals re: NAPs is not only stupid and intolerant, its inherently wrong. Being a matter of interpretation, there ISN'T any single accepted matter for treating them. However, every dominions player I've ever talked to other than Frank Headcase agrees that certain globals are more aggressive than others, even extending to NAP breaking.

K has just managed to prove himself to be batshit crazy both on shrapnel and from what I've seen of him on this forum.

For that matter, the idea that these two clowns would be good candidates to lead a "learning" game is just absolutely laughable. Who the fuck picks NIEFLHEIM as the most experienced player in a newb game?

Not to mention the absolutely incredible immaturity they've displayed in general. They've managed to get themselves either actually (in the case of Trollman) or effectively (in the case of K) kicked out of any other semi-serious dom3 communities, so they end up together over here. Its really quite sweet

[Zinegata]

Before this becomes a stupid bashfest.... two questions.

1) What would be a good learning game setup.

2) Where are these "semi-serious" dom3 communities.

These are honest questions out of curiosity. The rage-quit BS and drama is yesterday's news and I'd like to know more about the actual game.

[K]

It's always nice when one of your cyber-stalkers takes time out of his day to let you know he still wants to post-fuck you.

And that, gentlemen, is why I left the shrapnel board. Do I need a better example of the bizarre harassment? Would you want to play with that guy?

On a personal note, I actually would like to know what the other semi-serious Dominions communities are. I haven't played Dominions on anything other than the shrapnel forums and this one, so it's news to me that there are other options.

[Avoraciopoctules]

On a personal note, I actually would like to know what the other semi-serious Dominions communities are. I haven't played Dominions on anything other than the shrapnel forums and this one, so it's news to me that there are other options.

I think this forum community splintered off from the shrapnel boards for some reason.

http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/ind ... 6da9be&c=1

[Akula]

Something Awful supposedly has a fairly active Dom3 community.