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Lago PARANOIA
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Summon Neutral Monster has a better list, but Summon Evil Monster lets you (if you have Sacred Summons) summon as a standard action -- which is a huge deal. But Summon Neutral Monster is generally your only choice if you want to go the Envoy of Balance route, which completely whips ass. The only summoning PrC better than Envoy of Balance is Brewkeeper if you have it backed up by Prestigious Spellcaster.

It's not that the Summon Evil/Neutral Monster list is bad, it's just that it's not very versatile. The default summon list beats it at low levels and at really high levels you either want a REALLY brutal beatstick or something that has special powers.

Honestly, though? Get Summon Good Monster and, even better, Expanded Summon Monster.
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In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Longes
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
Honestly, though? Get Summon Good Monster and, even better, Expanded Summon Monster.


Not an option for the Way of the Wicked. Alas. I'm thinking of going Wizard 5/Diabolist 10/Genie Binder 5. Diabolist being pre-nerf, and Genie Binder being because I the other option I see is five more levels of Wizard which is kinda unexciting.

Expanded Summon Monster seems like a great way to make your feat obsolete in two to four levels.

Why is Envoy of Balance good for summoning? It seems almost entirely based around channeling.


Last edited by Longes on Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:24 am; edited 3 times in total
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Lago PARANOIA
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Expanded Summon Monster has forward compatibility even if you don't have the spell level. You don't need it right away, but once you get Summon Monster V you should seriously consider it.

Envoy of Balance allows you to add the Counterpoised template to monsters that don't have a planar alignment template. The expected way to use the Counterpoised template is on monsters that don't get a planar template to begin with, such as with elementals.

The cheesy way to abuse it is to swap out the Planar Template with the Versatile Summon Monster feat. This is so you can do things like summon Fiery Counterpoised Lions who will hit the enemy so hard their momma will die.
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Josh Kablack wrote:
Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.


Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Longes
Prince


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What's the breakdown of Wizard vs Arcanist?
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Longes wrote:
What's the breakdown of Wizard vs Arcanist?


Be a Wizard. Do not be an Arcanist.

That's pretty much it. The Arcanist is a Wizard who gives up access to the various Wizard-specific options in exchange for having access to a different but much smaller set of Arcanist-specific options instead.

-Frank
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Mask_De_H
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
Longes wrote:
What's the breakdown of Wizard vs Arcanist?


Be a Wizard. Do not be an Arcanist.

That's pretty much it. The Arcanist is a Wizard who gives up access to the various Wizard-specific options in exchange for having access to a different but much smaller set of Arcanist-specific options instead.

-Frank


More specifically, be an Exploiter Wizard, who gets the Arcanist's stuff in exchange for School Specialization if your MC disallows Void Wizard and you really want to be a generalist.

You want to play an Arcanist for three reasons: Magical Negro Initiate in order to pinch Druid and Cleric spells, Occultist for Academe Graduate+, or to get Evocation (Admixture) and Orc/X Bloodline on the same character without a dip or burning a bunch of feats so you can get your Megumin on.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I assume you want your Orc/Goblin or Orc/Dragon mix so you can get two sources of +1 damage per damage die when casting Explosion, there? That's the Bloodline Arcana, not the 1st level Bloodline Power, so you can't actually get that from being an Arcanist/Exploiter Wizard.

Arcanists don't get Arcana and I don't know how you would think that they do.

To be Megumin you probably just have to be a Sorcerer (Dual-Bloodline variant with Red Dragon and Orc), then I think there's a feat that gives you the Arcana of a third bloodline but if you think I'm looking it up, you're very mistaken. If that does exist, take Goblin, and then go about your merry day casting Fireball for 6d6+18 at level six, then 15d6+45 at level ten because you Empowered it (except half because they pass the save or zero because they pass the save and have Evasion), and so on. You'll do better with Scorching Ray, but I get that if you're Megumin you don't want accurate streams of fire, you want massive detonations that flatten the countryside.
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Longes
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The idea I'm currently toying with is making an Exploiter with a dip into Sorcerer and Sorcerer VMC. A side effect of Bloodline Development exploit is that your arcanist (wizard) levels stack with Sorcerer levels for progressing the bloodline. So a character would get three arcanas (two from crossblooded, one from VMC), a full set of best powers from two bloodlines, and a slow and reduced set of powers from a third. And a simgle level 1 power from Bloodline Development. Something like Wasting Ray, Snake's Fangs or Linnorm Senses would be great. Taking Tattooed Sorcerer and I think the dip is totally worth it. The flavor would be a blood mage who distilled the magic essence of multiple creatures and infused himself with it.

What I'm debating is which bloodlines to take. I could go with Fey, Undead and Serpentine to throw enchantments of just about anything, Orc, Dragon and X to blast. What would be a good set for summoning? Abyssal has Abyssal Summons which is great, but it's way down the line and the rest of Abyssal sucks.

With third party options, I'm thinking Distant Realms, Linnorm and Illusion.
Distant Realms gives +2DC to Illusion AND Charm, Linnorm gives excellent perception boost and 100ft flight at will, Illusion gives me a second me at 9 and spontaneously shadowcasting any conjuration or evocation as a level lower spell at 15, provided that you know the spell in question. Meteor Rain or Gate as a spontaneous 8th level spell? Don't mind if I do!

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-3rd-party-publishers/kobold-press-bloodlines/realms-beyond/
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-3rd-party-publishers/paizo-fans-united-wayfinder-magazine/linnorm-bloodline/
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-3rd-party-publishers/knotty-works-bloodlines/illusion/


Last edited by Longes on Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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TiaC
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Taking a both a dip into Sorcerer and the Sorcerer VMC is not allowed.
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Longes
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

How's the Souldrinker PrC? It's possible to set two-three feats on fire to get full spellcasting progression with it, but is it actually worth it? The class seems like a gish, so I'd guess something like Battle Oracle or Magus would be the way to go.
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Mask_De_H
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
I assume you want your Orc/Goblin or Orc/Dragon mix so you can get two sources of +1 damage per damage die when casting Explosion, there? That's the Bloodline Arcana, not the 1st level Bloodline Power, so you can't actually get that from being an Arcanist/Exploiter Wizard.

Arcanists don't get Arcana and I don't know how you would think that they do.


Yeah they do; Blood Arcanist, the Sorcerer replacement Archetype, grants Arcana and full Bloodline development. You buy School Understanding (Evocation [Admixture]) at earliest convenience, which is level 5 IIRC.

Single class Sorcerer Megumin would just go Orc Bloodline (Crossblooded sucks unless it's a one-drop for Wizard/Arcanist), take Spell Focus: Evocation and Blood Havoc to trade out Touch of Rage for an extra +1 damage per die, then do the Blockbuster package. Gobbo Bloodline is also 3PP, so that might be a hard sell.

Longes: Souldrinker seems eh unless you're carrying around a bag of rats; do note it's spell refresh mechanic requires you to pay double the spell's level in soul points you only get off of a limited use ability.
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Longes
Prince


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
I assume you want your Orc/Goblin or Orc/Dragon mix so you can get two sources of +1 damage per damage die when casting Explosion, there? That's the Bloodline Arcana, not the 1st level Bloodline Power, so you can't actually get that from being an Arcanist/Exploiter Wizard.

Arcanists don't get Arcana and I don't know how you would think that they do.

To be Megumin you probably just have to be a Sorcerer (Dual-Bloodline variant with Red Dragon and Orc), then I think there's a feat that gives you the Arcana of a third bloodline but if you think I'm looking it up, you're very mistaken. If that does exist, take Goblin, and then go about your merry day casting Fireball for 6d6+18 at level six, then 15d6+45 at level ten because you Empowered it (except half because they pass the save or zero because they pass the save and have Evasion), and so on. You'll do better with Scorching Ray, but I get that if you're Megumin you don't want accurate streams of fire, you want massive detonations that flatten the countryside.


Best Megumin would be an Aasimar Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1/Bloatmage N
Admixture wizard gets to swap around elements on the fly. Crossblooded Orc/Primal Dragon Tattooed sorcerer gets +1CL, +2 damage per die from Orc and Blood Havoc and rerolls half the damage dice from Primal Dragon. Bloatmage Initiate gives another +1CL and restocks the blast supply. At level 6 when fireball arrives you deal 8d6+19 damage in any element and reroll half the damage dice.
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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Apparantly the word arcanist was popularized in the 1700's Europe to describe artisans who knew secret techniques like Chinese porcelain making.

So a class named arcanist strikes me as a class that should be super into modifying spells in a way the wizard doesn't.
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Grek
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uuob?Changes-to-the-Shifter

Pathfinder devs admit that they made a design mistake and openly fix things instead of declaring it errata. Unfortunately, their design 'mistake' was that they accidentally made a class that was simple and straightforward instead of being pointlessly fiddly. The actual changes are reasonable, but I worry about the message the devs are taking to heart here.
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tussock
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's an interesting post, Grek.

They can't design simple stuff that sits next to the core classes in a low optimisation game, because the complexity of those classes with the option bloat means they all have secret paths to ultimate power hanging around. A new class has to be able to latch onto some of those options, so that the optimisers can play with it too.

And then, well, all the options are available as fiddly shit, so that's what the new base classes have to attach themselves to.

They know what works for most games, but it's got to be fiddly anyway because the optimisers necessarily care a lot more about that whole balance thing than the casuals, and you don't really want them telling everyone all day how crap it is in the optimiser games.
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Slade
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Grek wrote:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uuob?Changes-to-the-Shifter

Pathfinder devs admit that they made a design mistake and openly fix things instead of declaring it errata. Unfortunately, their design 'mistake' was that they accidentally made a class that was simple and straightforward instead of being pointlessly fiddly. The actual changes are reasonable, but I worry about the message the devs are taking to heart here.


Granted, now 6th and 12th level I think have dead levels, but eh.
They should just grant bonus feats, but likely if they did they'd limit it to some weak ones only.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Grek wrote:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uuob?Changes-to-the-Shifter

Pathfinder devs admit that they made a design mistake and openly fix things instead of declaring it errata. Unfortunately, their design 'mistake' was that they accidentally made a class that was simple and straightforward instead of being pointlessly fiddly. The actual changes are reasonable, but I worry about the message the devs are taking to heart here.


That's stupid and wrong, because the shifter isn't actually that straightforward. It's got layers of bullshit and lookups, and isn't always clear on which pre-selected forms can even use the claws class feature. (And making claws the central point of the class is its major failing!)

What is amusing is they're blaming on Starfinder, despite insisting during the Starfinder previews that it was a completely different team and wouldn't have any impact on the pathfinder gristmill.


For all the this a Big Deal, the actual faq is really tiny. The shifters edge 'clarification' was an known error before copies went out, and the actual fixes are breaking dr magic and duration based wild shape. It's still a horribly restricted version of wild shape, so the class is still really flat and uninteresting.
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phlapjackage
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
What is amusing is they're blaming on Starfinder, despite insisting during the Starfinder previews that it was a completely different team and wouldn't have any impact on the pathfinder gristmill.

He straight up admits they don't know what they're doing:

"We felt at the time that this was a relatively straight-forward class that did not need a lot of testing. These were game concepts we understood. Combined with an overwhelming design schedule (this was happening in the middle of Starfinder design), we decided to skip the playtest.

Its clear that this was a mistake."

By your own words you admit you don't even understand these "straight-forward" game concepts.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The sad thing is, yeah, in play it is very straight forward. It's just a pain in the ass for a player to compile the relevant information (some of which is still missing- what is the speed of a medium owl?)

But despite how straightforward it is to run up and claw someone, it very obviously sucks ass (you're kicking off 1st level with a dagger and no sneak attack. Yes, that is OBVIOUSLY shit). An idiot with not enough armor runs up and scratches ineffectively at people (once), if they survive against someone willing to just stand there they get two attacks with daggers. Woah. Look out, kobolds.

At wild shape level, hopefully the player was not a big enough moron to skip tiger or dinosaur as their single aspect, so now they can run up and pounce attack. The end. That is all the class is ever capable of. At 5th they can now fly without destroying their ability to pounce for the entire day, but that hits the entire limit of meaningful things they can do.

There are nearly an infinite number of ways to do this concept better, and do effective things as well, thanks to absurd pathfinder bloat.

A class designed around bad melee options and... nothing is a bafflingly bad attempt at class design, even for paizo. This is even worse than the fucking cavalier or medium. It's a closet troll that barely functions in that role, and when faced with Spellcasters, flying enemies or even horse archers, just stands around and makes farting noises. Because no, none of the flying forms can handle CR appropriate enemies. Ever.


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Archmage Joda
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've long since concluded that the best way for me to get my shapeshifter fix in tabletop is to not play pathfinder.
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've found the easiest way to play a "Shapeshifting" creature in D&D, use a Phasm in [Tome]; and once you can, start taking levels in Warshaper. Once it was an in-game transformation reward for a Ogre barbarian I was playing, an other time it was for a player whose character concept was "a swarm of genius rats, wearing a magical cloak that lets them shift their shape in any way they want".

It's not the greatest character overall due to no spellcasting; and it takes having several Monster Manuals at the table to quickly look up potential forms; but it does have it's bright spots and it's possible to even surprise others who specifically know you can "be (most) creatures up to large size, your CR or less." If you plan tactics out in advance, other party members can either use/stack buffs that get out of control if you pick certain forms ahead of time.
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