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TOZ
Duke


Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Shifter is on PFSRD now. Look ye upon their works and despair.
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Zaranthan
Knight


Joined: 29 May 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Do I have to? Can I just cuddle with the 3.5 Druid Shapeshifter variant and weep?
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virgil
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm looking at it now.

Basics A ranger chassis here. d10hp, full BAB, good Fort/Ref, medium armor. Nothing to write home about.

Claws Shifters' claws start out as good as spiked gauntlets, and don't get better until level 7 (light mace). Note, however, because they're primary natural weapons - they get full strength mod to damage and no attack penalty when attacking with both. Statistically, a Str 16 bloke is doing the same average damage with a greatsword as they are with these claws. Since natural weapons don't have iterative attacks, we'll start seeing some concerns by 6th level.

Aspects They choose an animal, and all of their shifting is around that animal. Even their wildshape (as per Beast Shape II) is restricted to this animal. They get an additional animal to choose from every 5th level afterward. Each animal has a major form and a minor form, they get the major form bonus/ability when using wildshape, and can use the minor form separately up to (3+level) minutes per day. Minor form traits are roughly comparable to feats that slightly improve at 8th & 15th level; owls get +4 Stealth, raptors get +2 Init, bats get darkvision (15' blindsense at 15th level), bulls get +2 enhancement to Str, etc. At 9th level, they can have two minor form bonuses at the same time. Major form stuff is 'roughly' a big-boy feat to make Wildshape worth it.

For such piddly bonuses, and for a class presumed to be for newbies, I don't get why they have this time tracking mechanic on the minor form bonuses that aren't even given for free when using wildshape. Just allow the minor form bonus to be constantly on, with an action to switch.
Quote:
When Paizo hypes up being able to turn into an owlbear by combining owl and bear traits I don't think it's entirely fair to blame the players for not realizing that what they actually meant was that you could turn into a bear with a competence bonus to stealth checks.


The Rest They get Woodland Stride, Track, Trackless Step, Wild Empathy, and the Monk's AC bonus (halved when armored).

-

IMO, one of the goals of a martial shifter is adapting your martial capability for the scenario at hand (specialized shifters are just reflavoured barbarians). This goes counter to the entire design philosophy Paizo's taken with martials (and 3.X as a whole), where you must become more and more specialized to stay relevant.
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Last edited by virgil on Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:49 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Voss
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
For such piddly bonuses, and for a class presumed to be for newbies, I don't get why they have this time tracking mechanic on the minor form bonuses that aren't even given for free when using wildshape. Just allow the minor form bonus to be constantly on, with an action to switch.

The amusing thing about this is the feral hunter archetype (the petless one for the Advanced Class Guide Hunter class) does exactly this. It just says fuck it, you can use aspects forever and switch them around freely.

It also gets a less restricted version of wildshape, and spellcasting.


The claws of the shifter are bizarre. They eventually get to ignore DR/adamantine and DR/-, but never DR/magic.

There is also a required feat tax for the shifter:
Shifter's Edge or something like that, but it's currently in flux as they apparently printed the 'wrong version' in the book. I believe it's supposed to add 1/2 level to claw damage. Plus maybe or maybe not strength bonus.


Anyway, clawgirl basically adds nothing to the game. It's a skills light wilderness person with a weird gimmick. I've no idea why they thought it was worth doing in this form.
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Count Arioch the 28th
King


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The other DM in the group decided to have an NPC shifter accompany our 4th level party last week because he wanted to "try it out". My half-giant psychic warrior made the character completely obsolete at what the shifter was supposed to do.
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Axebird
Journeyman


Joined: 25 Jun 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Shifter's Edge is right. The one in the book is pretty weird. It requires Weapon Finesse and specifically the Shifter Claws class feature, and adds your shifter level to the damage of your attacks with them but only when you're using Weapon Finesse to determine your attack bonus.

What Paizo apparently intended to print is basically the same, but it adds 1/2 your shifter level to damage and turns off if you use Dex for damage instead of Strength somehow.
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Count Arioch the 28th
King


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Paizo has a hate boner for adding dex to damage. Is there a real reason for that or is it Paizo being contrary for the sake of being contrary?
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Voss
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
Paizo has a hate boner for adding dex to damage. Is there a real reason for that or is it Paizo being contrary for the sake of being contrary?


Something something god stat maybe. Which is true in theory, but there are some overly complicated ways to get it anyway (feat chains + specific archetypes). And other ways to get untyped bonuses to damage (the medium occult class, which is dippable, and this feat for this specific class) which strike me as worse.

Personally I don't see it as a big deal as long as you can't Voltron shit together to get uber bonuses (which... is actually a real problem with PF at this point, given the sheer mountain of material)


But honestly what most people want out of it is for a light skirmisher character to do 1d6+4 damage with shortswords or scimitars without breaking their character through sheer MADness. I can't be asked to care, but Paizo seems to think people have committed some grave sin against the ghost of Gygax for even asking.
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merxa
NPC


Joined: 22 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
Paizo has a hate boner for adding dex to damage. Is there a real reason for that or is it Paizo being contrary for the sake of being contrary?


Something something god stat maybe.


Dex is very good, and maybe having a SAD fighter is too overwhelming for paizo, but CHA is probably the god stat of pathfinder.

Why they errata away dex to damage I don't know, apparently only scimitars please the dex to damage gods, but probably because they hate fun or fighters.
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Antariuk
Master


Joined: 07 May 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What I find mind-boggling is that they had to do this shit after the release. Again. UW has been announced, I dunno, like a year ago? What the heck have the authors and editors been doing in all that time? And that it's yet again a DEX-to-damage issue is... man, I don't even. This is just ridiculous.
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GâtFromKI
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Joined: 02 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

TOZ wrote:
Shifter is on PFSRD now. Look ye upon their works and despair.


...

This is so full of shit. Is there 1 player who intend to play a shifter, or is this class a complete waste of space ?


merxa wrote:
Dex is very good, and maybe having a SAD fighter is too overwhelming for paizo, but CHA is probably the god stat of pathfinder.

Dex is very good, and being able to make as much damage using your dex as using your str would make str useless.

Except you can't. Power attack requires a bit of str. "Dex to damage" doesn't mean "1.5*dex to damage if you're using a two-handed weapon". There's only 1 two-handed and finessable weapon. The feats you take to add your dex to hit and to damage are feats you don't take to improve your damages (those two feats make you on par with 1-handed str characters, nothing more).

Unfortunately, Paizo's designers are too retarded to understand this simple concept : the cost of two feat to add 1*dex to damages with poor weapons is large enough. Therefore they add byzantine requirement for byzantine build and none of this makes any sense (seriously, the easiest way to get Dex to damages is to use a scimitar. The scimitar isn't even finessable in the first place, you dumbass !).

Therefore... Screw that shit, play a caster.


Last edited by GâtFromKI on Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:47 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Pixels
Knight


Joined: 14 Jun 2010
Posts: 395

PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm certain there will be some who play the shifter. People want to play a badass shapeshifting warrior, and most are not equipped to evaluate the class and figure it that it will not live up to their expectations. It's the same reason people play monks in 3.X.
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Voss
Prince


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Its pretty much a monk with less options, so good luck to them.
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Count Arioch the 28th
King


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

GâtFromKI wrote:
"Dex to damage" doesn't mean "1.5*dex to damage if you're using a two-handed weapon".


It literally does if you are playing an unchained rogue. Also 1/2 dex to off-hand if you're fighting with two weapons.
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saithorthepyro
Apprentice


Joined: 08 Jan 2017
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

GâtFromKI wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Shifter is on PFSRD now. Look ye upon their works and despair.


...

This is so full of shit. Is there 1 player who intend to play a shifter, or is this class a complete waste of space ?


There were people who intended to play a shifter, but even they didn't see this sack of garbage coming. Backlash on their own forums has apparently made Paizo give enough of a damn to issue moratoriums and start looking for the worst criticisms to delete.

As for Dex to damage, it doesn't really matter because most people I run into never think about investing into to abuse it because most of them the resources spent on actually getting it aren't worth the boost. Well, except for Unchained Rogue, which gets to be the exception because people can call it optional.

Also, as a quick question, do we have anything from Paizo itself about the Shifter being a beginner's class? The only places I spotted it were people trying to make up excuses for them.
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Voss
Prince


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

saithorthepyro wrote:
GâtFromKI wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Shifter is on PFSRD now. Look ye upon their works and despair.


...

This is so full of shit. Is there 1 player who intend to play a shifter, or is this class a complete waste of space ?


There were people who intended to play a shifter, but even they didn't see this sack of garbage coming. Backlash on their own forums has apparently made Paizo give enough of a damn to issue moratoriums and start looking for the worst criticisms to delete.

As for Dex to damage, it doesn't really matter because most people I run into never think about investing into to abuse it because most of them the resources spent on actually getting it aren't worth the boost. Well, except for Unchained Rogue, which gets to be the exception because people can call it optional.

Also, as a quick question, do we have anything from Paizo itself about the Shifter being a beginner's class? The only places I spotted it were people trying to make up excuses for them.


I never found any. Only one of the 'designers' or 'developers,'* was commenting regularly on the shifter or the book in general. And he wasn't actually involved in the class, so whatever. I'm surprised they're letting him engage in pointless circular arguments with the disgruntled fanbase.


*it's confusing, because they use the terms to mean the exact opposite of what most related industries do, and have both do other random jobs on a regular basis as well


They did put out a FAQ for shifter's edge. Nice leading way of framing the question as well:
Quote:
Shifter's Edge: Should Shifter's Edge be adding that much damage to all attacks?

No, Shifter's Edge's benefit should be the following "Whenever you use Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack with your claws or a natural attack augmented by your claws, and you use your Dexterity bonus on attack rolls and your Strength modifier on damage rolls, you also add half your shifter level to the damage."

Now, I don't know what the prereqs are, but obviously you need weapon finesse, which makes it level 3 minimum for most races, but its pretty shit.
If you're opting for weapon finesse in the first place, your strength isn't going to be very high, a damage bonus of +2 at 4th level is pretty indifferent, even with two attacks)

And since the Shifter is fairly MAD, because it's a close combat class that wants Dex, Wis (for more AC. because armor selection is shit) and Con (as it has nothing to do but stand in the enemy's face), their damage output is going to be a fucking sad 1d4+2/1d4+2 at 4th, and increasing to an absolutely 'amazing' 1d6+3/1d6+3 by 7th.

There is apparently shit and magical items that can apparently be stacked on for secondary natural attacks and that sort of shit, but.... yeah, don't care.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This class looks like a Hybrid class based on Druid and Monk, except that I'm pretty sure an actual Monk/Druid Hybrid Class would be better. This is just... so lacklustre.

I mean, even just playing a Druid with the Feral Shifter and natural attacks from your race would be better, and probably more satisfying.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I feel like if they gave shifters edge for free at this point along with weapon finesse I'd still be disappointed.
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MisterDee
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You'd probably be right. Giving the shifter free finesse and shifter's edge is basically needed to have them on par with other martials at level 1.

And then, combat wise, they'll progress about as fast as a Warrior until they get a combat-usable animal form (for which I can't bother to do the math, but I figure it's probably level appropriate numbers for Level 4.)

Seriously, I have no idea how someone thought this mess was on par with even a goddamned fighter, let alone an actual class.
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saithorthepyro
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, with a class that bad, even free stuff can't help if there's not enough of it. I don't even know what this class is supposed to be really. It's not really a class for shifting, since it's arguably worse at it then other classes like the druid, which someone did the math on.

If it's a monk-druid hybrid, it has very little from the actual classes. No Ki, Ki abilities, spellcasting, I don't think they even get Speak with Animals. It gets a wildshape barely improved over the druid's, and a monk AC bonus that isn't even a full one if you put on some robes.

If it's a beginner class, it's in the wrong book, and it also doesn't have the capabilities to survive a beginner making mistakes with it. It's inability to punch at it's weight class and contribute is not going to leave new players with a good impression of the game.

Why does this thing even exist? Are they really this out of touch with how the game works at any way? It's not like this thing works that great at lower levels, it doesn't. The damage is always lackluster, it's gimped by being MAD, it doesn't get any shifting forms till fourth level, and it's AC isn't that great for a frontliner.
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Voss
Prince


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's wildshape is way worse than the druids. You have to pick an aspect at level 1, and then 5, 10, 15. You can only wildshape into those specific forms. So, Deinonychus or Tiger is absolutely required as one of the first two (to get pounce at 8th, as well as several more natural attacks). A lot are simply unusable, since they are shit, give a shit minor form bonus and take away shifter claws.

If you want flying, you're stuck with something awful like a dire bat, a small falcon or a randomly medium sized owl.

No elementals, no high CR animals. No ability to get magic fang and actually contribute in a disturbing amount of fights. The first fight with shadows demonstrates absolutely that the class has no ability to contribute at all. Nearly any other 'wilderness' class can exceed the non-combat abilities, and skill classes can fake it.

I absolutely despise the PF ranger, but I'd rather someone play one of those than bring this class to the table.

Quote:
Are they really this out of touch with how the game works at any way?

Yes. Yes they are.
I think this specific one is a reaction to complaints about how complicated the occult classes were, but it still has too many weird parts (that tellingly, don't do much of anything), and is even worse as well.

I'll also just point to Starfinder. That should have been easy (since they were almost selling it as Star Wars with the serial numbers filed off), but they fucked that up pretty thoroughly.


Last edited by Voss on Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Lurky Lurkpants
1st Level


Joined: 27 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
Only one of the 'designers' or 'developers,'* was commenting regularly on the shifter or the book in general. And he wasn't actually involved in the class, so whatever. I'm surprised they're letting him engage in pointless circular arguments with the disgruntled fanbase.


It's Mark Seifter, isn't it?

I'd guarantee you defending this shit is literally in his job description. Part of why SKR left was because it went from informally being his job to handle all the FAQs and defend every bit of dumbfuckery Bulmahn or Stephen-MacLongName thought up to formally being his part of his job. You'd think you wouldn't want to force the person famous for being an argumentative ass to do that job, but you'd be underestimating how much they don't want to talk to their audience or defend their ideas.

They hired Mark right after and since then he has been pretty much all the "rules team" interaction with the forums. I can't imagine he'd put up with it if his upgraded fanboy status wasn't at stake.

Quote:
If you want flying, you're stuck with something awful like a dire bat, a small falcon or a randomly medium sized owl.

No elementals, no high CR animals.


Hey now, let's be fair! There are elementals, they are just relegated to their own elemental-only archetype.

For which they wrote four forms, on a class that gets five. Two of which have non-stacking bonuses to Dexterity as their minor form. But while stuck as a medium elemental and enjoying Improved Natural Attack as your level 15 upgrade you do get some special movement types and it doesn't actively hurt you. Given that it is competing with Oozemorph and Rageshaper, this means it is still comfortably in the mid range of the archetypes.


Last edited by Lurky Lurkpants on Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Orca
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The shifter's limited to non-metal armor if it wants all its class features - but since dragonhide exists this just means it can't use random looted armor. You can make it as a Str/Con/Wis high character and not worry much about the other stats. The shifter's edge feat is just there to make a dex-based build vaguely practical.

I'm not sure what concept would fit better as a shifter than as something else though. It doesn't seem very inspired.
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Voss
Prince


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
but since dragonhide exists this just means it can't use random looted armor

Huzzah for cock-sucking. That doesn't make it a non-problem for the class, assuming it lives long enough for that cock-sucking to pay off.
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MisterDee
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Orca wrote:
The shifter's limited to non-metal armor if it wants all its class features - but since dragonhide exists this just means it can't use random looted armor. You can make it as a Str/Con/Wis high character and not worry much about the other stats. The shifter's edge feat is just there to make a dex-based build vaguely practical.


So you convince your DM to allow dragonhide armor in shops.

And then what?

You're not proficient with heavy armor, and dragonhide doesn't reduce ACP. So you're pretty much limited to a breastplate (for a massive +2 AC over hide armor.) Sure, it's probably a good idea, but we're still in "worse than Warriors" territory (and if you're high-wisdom, you're sacrificing some mobility for AC that you could get through your wisdom bonus to AC if you're running around in medium armor. )
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