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Harime Nui
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm planning next weekend to tell my players I'm restoring Combat Expertise back to its original 3.5 glory (+/-5). I don't think they'll care much as none of them has the feat (and why would you ever want PF's expertise?) Should I do the same with Power Attack? That would turn a lot more heads... I like the idea of combats ending faster so we can squeeze more into a session, OTOH one of my players already can do decent damage (gendarme on a warhorse w/lance), with Power Attack Classic he'd be game breaking. Is it worth it?
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Voss
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Harime Nui wrote:
I'm planning next weekend to tell my players I'm restoring Combat Expertise back to its original 3.5 glory (+/-5). I don't think they'll care much as none of them has the feat (and why would you ever want PF's expertise?)

Change something that no one has, no one cares about and still probably wouldn't care about?

Can't quite see how it would matter. But if you did do it and they did take it, both sides missing more often seems at odds with with your intended goal of combats ending faster.

Quote:
Should I do the same with Power Attack? That would turn a lot more heads... I like the idea of combats ending faster so we can squeeze more into a session, OTOH one of my players already can do decent damage (gendarme on a warhorse w/lance), with Power Attack Classic he'd be game breaking. Is it worth it?


Actually... this is more complicated than you seem to think. PF power attack is tightly capped, but the point-for-point damage benefits are better, especially for one handed weapons: +2 damage for each -1. 3.5 power attacks is +1 dmaage for each -1 for one handed weapons (which is how lances are used when mounted). So depending on level, your gendarme player is going to have to take a much higher attack penalty to squeeze out damage bonuses.

If your players are at 8th level, they can currently take -3 for +6 (which is then doubled for lance charge), but if you switch to 3.5, they'd have to take -6 for +6, but could go up to -8, +8. The big problem with the PF version for players is level has so much weight on the damage cap.

So the results are really going to vary based on level, and it may actually extend combat if they're reckless about it and go for higher attack penalties for bigger damage bonuses.



But really, if the shitty cavalier archetype is a danger of being game breaking, I'm... concerned. How shit is the rest of the party if that character is even relevant? (And gendarme is even reliant on horsing around than normal cavaliers. Take it off the mount and it's a fucking warrior npc class).


Last edited by Voss on Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:36 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Harime Nui
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
Change something that no one has, no one cares about and still probably wouldn't care about?

Can't quite see how it would matter. But if you did do it and they did take it, both sides missing more often seems at odds with with your intended goal of combats ending faster.


You're right that it's not that significant. I'm just pissed expertise is a feat tax for so much and they made it virtually pointless. If a player's gonna turtle at least have them be a little okay at turtling?

Quote:
Actually... this is more complicated than you seem to think. PF power attack is tightly capped, but the point-for-point damage benefits are better, especially for one handed weapons: +2 damage for each -1. 3.5 power attacks is +1 dmaage for each -1 for one handed weapons (which is how lances are used when mounted). So depending on level, your gendarme player is going to have to take a much higher attack penalty to squeeze out damage bonuses.

If your players are at 8th level, they can currently take -3 for +6 (which is then doubled for lance charge), but if you switch to 3.5, they'd have to take -6 for +6, but could go up to -8, +8. The big problem with the PF version for players is level has so much weight on the damage cap.

So the results are really going to vary based on level, and it may actually extend combat if they're reckless about it and go for higher attack penalties for bigger damage bonuses.


Aaso. So if I really want to help some of my players into more damage I should look at reintroducing the old style feats (Shock Trooper, Combat Brute?)

Quote:
But really, if the shitty cavalier archetype is a danger of being game breaking, I'm... concerned. How shit is the rest of the party if that character is even relevant? (And gendarme is even reliant on horsing around than normal cavaliers. Take it off the mount and it's a fucking warrior npc class).


Well, it's a 4th-level warrior party so they're not exactly Lords of the Earth... specifically there's the Gendarme, a Paladin, a Bloodrager and a Slayer. There's also a Druid but that player has some pretty severe social anxiety issues and doesn't comtribute much.

They do a lot with what "resources" they do have. The Paladin uses his plump diplomacy roll more than anything, the slayer makes money off her masterwork bow crafting business and the cavalier's player keeps steering the party away from like, actual dungeons somehow.... my concern is that when the party DOES get into combat, the guys who aren't lance charging are forced to whittle enemies down. I'd be willing to give them something to be more competitive if I can think of what. Esp. I'd like to have something ready for when they hit that all-important level 6.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Harime Nui wrote:
Quote:

So the results are really going to vary based on level, and it may actually extend combat if they're reckless about it and go for higher attack penalties for bigger damage bonuses.


Aaso. So if I really want to help some of my players into more damage I should look at reintroducing the old style feats (Shock Trooper, Combat Brute?)

Well, maybe. But specifically at level 4, changing to 3.5 power attack would be an amazing 'fuck you' to the players. With PF PA, they can take -2 and get +4 with a one handed weapon, with 3.5 PA they'd have to take -4 to get +4. It's a complete loss for them. Even for two handed weapons it isn't that great, -2/+6 vs -4/+8

But I don't think damage is the problem...


Quote:
Well, it's a 4th-level warrior party so they're not exactly Lords of the Earth... specifically there's the Gendarme, a Paladin, a Bloodrager and a Slayer. There's also a Druid but that player has some pretty severe social anxiety issues and doesn't comtribute much.

Uh... yeah. I don't know how this party functions. I can't even guess how it could answer roughly half the problems that crop in normal play.

Swarms, traps, fliers, incorporeal, save or suck spells, whatever. How do you not TPK them accidentally?

Quote:
They do a lot with what "resources" they do have. The Paladin uses his plump diplomacy roll more than anything,

I don't know what this means.

Quote:
the slayer makes money off her masterwork bow crafting business

I suspect you aren't using the crafting rules correctly. 330 gold minimum for a normal masterwork shortbow makes the base item price 300 silver at DC of 12 and 3000 silver at a DC 20. Assuming regular rolls of 20, its a day plus part of another for the bow and 7 plus half of another for the masterwork component. Is the slayer really taking over a week off the campaign to make each bow?


And a profit of 220 gold per week+ is... uh. No. Even at 4th, don't care. Not profitable compared to going off and killing some people/things.

Quote:
and the cavalier's player keeps steering the party away from like, actual dungeons somehow.... my concern is that when the party DOES get into combat, the guys who aren't lance charging are forced to whittle enemies down.


So...enemies don't use difficult terrain, trees, walls and whatnot to keep from being charged down over and over again? Does the party not have goals or objectives inside buildings, or even tight terrain?


Quote:
I'd be willing to give them something to be more competitive if I can think of what. Esp. I'd like to have something ready for when they hit that all-important level 6.

You mean when they get an additional attack that will mostly miss? Which would also be worse with 3.5 power attack, by the by, since PA modifies all attacks for a round.

Nothing will make this party competitive. They collectively made the worst life choices they possibly could. You've got one basically functional martial class (slayer, which is the most 'effective' martial class paizo produced, and the result of roughly a dozen completely failed attempts at the concept), a backup healer/status remover class (paladin) and two gimps. And that assumes they made decent decisions when it came to stats, feats and weapons.

Plus a druid, who is on the spot for being the one class that can accomplish things, barring player issues.


Last edited by Voss on Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:43 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Harime Nui
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
Uh... yeah. I don't know how this party functions. I can't even guess how it could answer roughly half the problems that crop in normal play.

Swarms, traps, fliers, incorporeal, save or suck spells, whatever. How do you not TPK them accidentally?


You want the long boring answer? They just don't even go to places where that might happen. Thus far their Notable Wins tally is a gang of wererats, a squad of bandits, ogres, orogs and animals. They learned early on I was going to use difficult terrain and elevation against them and promptly said "fuck that." They almost got killed by a trap in the very first dungeon they went into and said "fuck that."

In the barony they're in, the woods are kept cleared 100 yards away from the roadside specifically as a measure against banditry. But, mounted bandits, ogres and giant weasels are still a problem. That effectively means the party has a terrain that plays to the Gendarme's strengths where they can sort of grind low-level encounters (but I do keep track of how many animals/bandits are in the region and they're almost out). Why explore a dungeon when you can collect enough gp by running down bandits and trading pelts to buy a handful more healing potions and another week's rent at the inn? Their lack of ambition makes me sad but they've been able to get away with it so far.


Quote:
I don't know what this means.


He's made pals with the Baron and other local notable NPCs. This is a big part of why this party has been able to put off actually going underground or into any hostile terrain---they are better at pretending to be adventurers than actually adventuring.

Quote:
I suspect you aren't using the crafting rules correctly. 330 gold minimum for a normal masterwork shortbow makes the base item price 300 silver at DC of 12 and 3000 silver at a DC 20. Assuming regular rolls of 20, its a day plus part of another for the bow and 7 plus half of another for the masterwork component. Is the slayer really taking over a week off the campaign to make each bow?

And a profit of 220 gold per week+ is... uh. No. Even at 4th, don't care. Not profitable compared to going off and killing some people/things.


The Slayer's player misses more sessions than he comes to which is why A) yeah he does just sit in town and craft a lot and B) he gets away with this stuff.

And see above. A couple hundred gp represents a big sum to the players right now (because they are playing Scrimpers & Savers instead of Dungeons & Dragons).

Quote:
So...enemies don't use difficult terrain, trees, walls and whatnot to keep from being charged down over and over again? Does the party not have goals or objectives inside buildings, or even tight terrain?


I try to play enemies as intelligently as I can given their abilities. So animals will attack from surprise and try to retreat if seriously injured. Bandits will try to surround and intimidate rather than just murder. The problem is like, the cavalier doesn't have a sign announcing he has special lance-charge bullshit so if you're an ogre why wouldn't you assume he's just another human warrior you can pluck off his horse and pop in your mouth?

Quote:
You mean when they get an additional attack that will mostly miss? Which would also be worse with 3.5 power attack, by the by, since PA modifies all attacks for a round.


I said sixth level is important because +6 BAB is when the next tier of PF combat feats is unlocked. That will be the best time to help my players make some better choices if I can.

Quote:
Nothing will make this party competitive. They collectively made the worst life choices they possibly could. You've got one basically functional martial class (slayer, which is the most effective martial class paizo produced, and the result of roughly a dozen failed attempts at the concept), a backup healer/status remover class (paladin) and two gimps. And that assumes they made decent decisions when it came to stats, feats and weapons.

Plus a druid, who is on the spot for being the one class that can accomplish things, barring player issues.


If it's really unsalvageable, then the first time this party runs into some serious competition may be their last. Hopefully that'll be a lesson for them. Something like this happened to me back in 3.0 days when I was playing D&D in my tweens. We made a party of Fighter, Fighter, Barbarian and Paladin, and for the first couple of levels we rocked---crushing orcs, spiders, etc. Then we ran into our very first incorpreal undead and that was the end of that chapter. If the players have to learn things the hard way then whatever, but if they insist on being unbalanced I'd like to at least help them be unbalanced in the way they want to.

E: In fairness to the Gendarme's player, he's said repeatedly he plans to take Leadership at level 6 and get a caster cohort, so at least he has some plan there.


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Voss
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
In the barony they're in, the woods are kept cleared 100 yards away from the roadside specifically as a measure against banditry. But, mounted bandits, ogres and giant weasels are still a problem. That effectively means the party has a terrain that plays to the Gendarme's strengths where they can sort of grind low-level encounters (but I do keep track of how many animals/bandits are in the region and they're almost out). Why explore a dungeon when you can collect enough gp by running down bandits and trading pelts to buy a handful more healing potions and another week's rent at the inn? Their lack of ambition makes me sad but they've been able to get away with it so far.

Because you let them.

If they're staying in an inn, have the bandits attack in the night as a final attempt at revenge before abandoning the region as unprofitable.
Quote:
I try to play enemies as intelligently as I can given their abilities. So animals will attack from surprise and try to retreat if seriously injured. Bandits will try to surround and intimidate rather than just murder. The problem is like, the cavalier doesn't have a sign announcing he has special lance-charge bullshit so if you're an ogre why wouldn't you assume he's just another human warrior you can pluck off his horse and pop in your mouth?

If they're intelligent and set to farm status by the Warriors Four... they'd leave the absurdly manicured tree-free roads* and go banditing elsewhere.

*seriously, the amount of labor required to clear that 100-yard swath on both sides of all roads in the barony is insane. As in the locals would probably have dreamed longingly of building pyramids instead.

People clear trees mostly for farming, they don't have the time or ability to do it for fun.

Quote:
He's made pals with the Baron and other local notable NPCs. This is a big part of why this party has been able to put off actually going underground or into any hostile terrain---they are better at pretending to be adventurers than actually adventuring.

Making pals means that they're inclined to ask them for favors. Each NPC is a hook for getting party moving past bandit farming.

Quote:
And see above. A couple hundred gp represents a big sum to the players right now (because they are playing Scrimpers & Savers instead of Dungeons & Dragons).

And, sorry guys, you've bought out the local economy. Time to move on.

Quote:
If it's really unsalvageable, then the first time this party runs into some serious competition may be their last. Hopefully that'll be a lesson for them. Something like this happened to me back in 3.0 days when I was playing D&D in my tweens. We made a party of Fighter, Fighter, Barbarian and Paladin, and for the first couple of levels we rocked---crushing orcs, spiders, etc. Then we ran into our very first incorpreal undead and that was the end of that chapter. If the players have to learn things the hard way then whatever, but if they insist on being unbalanced I'd like to at least help them be unbalanced in the way they want to.
This sounds like you'll help them dig their own graves. At this point a lower level caster can just throw web or other terrain effects at them and just screw everything up. Stirges or other early flyers, or even just mounted horse archers would make them cry.

Quote:
E: In fairness to the Gendarme's player, he's said repeatedly he plans to take Leadership at level 6 and get a caster cohort, so at least he has some plan there.

For fuck's sake.
He'd be better off playing the cohort.


Last edited by Voss on Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Eikre
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
(which is how lances are used when mounted).


That's permissive, not mandatory. People on horseback still use lances two-handed if they want.
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deaddmwalking
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:

For fuck's sake.
He'd be better off playing the cohort.


Unless he's having fun, so it doesn't matter.
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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A fighter ordering around a caster is a fantasy unto itself
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Voss
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Eikre wrote:
Voss wrote:
(which is how lances are used when mounted).


That's permissive, not mandatory. People on horseback still use lances two-handed if they want.

That's just fucking bizarre. But then so is 'power attacking' with a lance, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Really, what happens, it gets held harder to multiply the speed and mass of the horse more?

deaddmwalking wrote:
Unless he's having fun, so it doesn't matter.

Don't be full of horseshit. Leadership is a completely incoherent gimmick where a feat is suddenly transformed into a pokemon of a full character.


Though checking it, Leadership can't be taken at 6th level in Pathfinder. 7th level is required, presumably because 'go fuck yourself, it's compatible unless Jason's homebrew rules say it isn't.'
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Emerald
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
Though checking it, Leadership can't be taken at 6th level in Pathfinder. 7th level is required, presumably because 'go fuck yourself, it's compatible unless Jason's homebrew rules say it isn't.'


It's probably less that and more the fact that you get a feat at every 3rd level in 3e, but every odd level in PF, so you couldn't take Leadership at 6th (barring an open-ended bonus feat of some sort) and they'd rather move it up a level than down a level.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

deaddmwalking wrote:
I don't know how old your players are, but you could make a whole group of enemies based on 'muscle men' (an old toy . You could introduce some 'body stitching' to explain 8 arms.


I just started watching Kinnikuman b/c of this post. I grew up w/ some M.U.S.C.L.E. Men figures among my toys, but I had no idea about the backstory of any of them. It's ... interesting. The first episode (movie special) alone makes me realize that the series was probably mined for ideas and designs (M.Bison & Brocken Jr. seem very similar).

I could see the series being mined for any sort of fantasy wrestling between Steves from different planets working as teams to fight bigger threats to Justice!, while also taking time to compete in fighting intergalactic wrestling tournaments.
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Eikre
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
Eikre wrote:
Voss wrote:
(which is how lances are used when mounted).


That's permissive, not mandatory. People on horseback still use lances two-handed if they want.

That's just fucking bizarre. But then so is 'power attacking' with a lance, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Really, what happens, it gets held harder to multiply the speed and mass of the horse more?'


Why don't you ask one of these guys?



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Dr_Noface
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What's he lancing in that last one? A lion?
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Voss
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Eikre wrote:
Voss wrote:
Eikre wrote:
Voss wrote:
(which is how lances are used when mounted).


That's permissive, not mandatory. People on horseback still use lances two-handed if they want.

That's just fucking bizarre. But then so is 'power attacking' with a lance, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Really, what happens, it gets held harder to multiply the speed and mass of the horse more?'


Why don't you ask one of these guys?


Because spears, particularly spears used without stirrups, aren't even vaguely relevant to the discussion. Which leaves only the heady sense of artistic license on that first guy win a spear, and the assumption that one is even on a horse, rather than the guy with sword in front of him.

Spears and lances are distinct things.


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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
Spears and lances are distinct things.

What do you imagine is the distinction?

In any case, I always thought Power Attack was better envisioned as 'called shots.' That's what taking a penalty to hit in exchange for a greater effect represents in most games.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Voss wrote:
Spears and lances are distinct things.

What do you imagine is the distinction?

Well besides being similar in basic concept (a metal tip on the end of a pole), a spear is significantly shorter and consequently more flexible in use. A lance is pretty much only good on a charge, and requires bracing it in a fairly strict posture against the horse and stirrups so the weight and speed of the horse gets passed along to the pointy end of the lance. But due to the length and awkwardness of it, you can't really lean or stab people alongside you, which you can do with a shorter spear.

It gets fuzzy due to translation and weirdness of use, but when D&D talks about lances it's generally specifically talking about the weird anachronisms you see in 'Hollywood-medieval' settings like Excalibur or shitty Medieval Times restaurants.

If you can find it, Appendix T, Nomenclature of Pole Arms in the original Unearthed Arcana (where Gygax masturbates furiously to the concept of pole arms for 5 full pages at the end of the book) has a pretty good line drawing of the difference. A specific area for gripping near the base, and a raised area (or a small, tapered metal shield) to protect the hand and forearm. That is what D&D pushes as when it talks about a lance. It's also what is pictured in the Pathfinder rulebook (p 146) and the 3.5 PHB (p 115).

Gygax is also why the polearm fetish has remained in the game, even if it was slowly diminished. The game doesn't really need spears and ranseurs and glaives and guisarmes, but it's why they exist at all (be happy that the other dozen or so that used to be in the weapons list have been stripped out over time).

I'm sure someone will don the mantle of irrelevant trivia specialist and nitpick about something irrelevant, but that is what both games are assuming, regardless of any historical (in)accuracy.

Quote:
In any case, I always thought Power Attack was better envisioned as 'called shots.' That's what taking a penalty to hit in exchange for a greater effect represents in most games.

It's exactly the opposite. Power attack is explicitly saying 'fuck accuracy' to put more force behind a swing. You aren't going for weak points, you're smashing.
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
I'm sure someone will don the mantle of irrelevant trivia specialist and nitpick about something irrelevant, but that is what both games are assuming, regardless of any historical (in)accuracy.

Well, I happen to think you're very wrong on almost all counts, but when you pre-dismiss disagreement like that, it's clear there's no point in engaging further.
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Voss wrote:
AFAP wrote:
In any case, I always thought Power Attack was better envisioned as 'called shots.' That's what taking a penalty to hit in exchange for a greater effect represents in most games.

It's exactly the opposite. Power attack is explicitly saying 'fuck accuracy' to put more force behind a swing. You aren't going for weak points, you're smashing.


Eh, I can see it. It's obviously not the intended fluff, but I can see the idea of "I'm calling my shot to do more damage, and the smaller area is harder to hit"
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In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Voss wrote:
I'm sure someone will don the mantle of irrelevant trivia specialist and nitpick about something irrelevant, but that is what both games are assuming, regardless of any historical (in)accuracy.

Well, I happen to think you're very wrong on almost all counts, but when you pre-dismiss disagreement like that, it's clear there's no point in engaging further.


So you think the lances pictured in the 3.5 and pathfinder books work the same way as spears? It seems significant that only one of us has offered any evidence to support a position.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Polish Lancers:



Mongolian Lancer:



Hussite Wars Lancer:



Kushan Lancer:



Actual fucking period photograph of a real military lancer:

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Lances are just spears. That is all they have ever been. That is all the word is ever going to mean. There are various spears that for whatever reason have crossguards on them at one point or another of the length, but those are also just kinds of spears.

The classic lance of children's cartoons with the cone in front of the expected hold point is the jousting lance. It is not a weapon of war. It's fucking sporting equipment, and it has the hand guard because you don't want to get injured during sporting events and also because in the extremely formalized sport of jousting it is absolutely never required that you adjust the grip on your lance in order to more effectively stab people on the ground.

Anyone who ever tries to explain how a spear is different from a lance has already lost the discussion. If you think a lance isn't just a word for spear you don't know know enough about weapons to even be part of this conversation.

-Frank
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momothefiddler
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Joined: 22 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Man, sometimes I forget that lance cavalry and cameras existed at the same time and it's Weird.

That said, it seems a bit disingenuous to use "lances and spears are the same" as the base an argument on whether lances can be used to Power Attack. Lances and spears are the same in the real world but Power Attack exists within the game rules where lances and spears are very explicitly not the same.

By all means, argue that it's stupid for the rules to have separate rules for lances and longspears. Argue that it's stupid for the pictures of lances to be clearly jousting lances presented as real weapons. Argue, even, that of course people can Power Attack with lances because it says so in the rules and maybe that's dumb but having lances (as pictured/defined) in there at all is dumb anyway so fuck it. I support those arguments.

I'm just not sure it's reasonable to argue that lances should be Power-Attack-able on the basis of lances and spears are the same and jousting lances aren't real weapons, because as soon as you started talking about Power Attack we all assumed you meant the weapons in the book.
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Omegonthesane
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Under 3.5 the only differences between a lance and a longspear are that a lance is easier to use while mounted, does more on the charge while mounted, and is martial not simple. If you had an enormous hard-on for RAW you could if you really wanted claim that longspears just get all those buffs if the wielder has martial weapon prof, similar to how you need an exotic weapon prof to one-hand a bastard sword.

EDIT: I tell a lie, longspears can be set for charge. Still the basic functionality of the two weapons is the same.
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Last edited by Omegonthesane on Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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momothefiddler
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Joined: 22 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Omegonthesane wrote:
Under 3.5 the only differences between a lance and a longspear are that a lance is easier to use while mounted, does more on the charge while mounted, and is martial not simple. If you had an enormous hard-on for RAW you could if you really wanted claim that longspears just get all those buffs if the wielder has martial weapon prof, similar to how you need an exotic weapon prof to one-hand a bastard sword.

EDIT: I tell a lie, longspears can be set for charge. Still the basic functionality of the two weapons is the same.


Yeah, if you ignore the pictures (and cost and weight differences, which is what made me note that they were explicitly different) and give lances the ability to set for a charge, they merge pretty well. The same is true in Pathfinder.
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FrankTrollman
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Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Discussing the pictures in the PHB is interesting and all, but only with the caveat that those pictures are laregly irrelevant. Simply put: D&D as a whole pretty much completely ignores those doodles because they are fucking dumb. For example, look at the PHB Spiked Chain, which is some kind of crazy double sided anchor like might be wielded by a Guilty Gear character. And yet, when people actually draw characters using spiked chains, they look like this:



-Frank
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