Pathfinder Is Still Bad

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:20 am

Not really. I been in several games where I was playing a 3.0 cleric, my step kids were playing 3.Tome knight and barbarian, and 3 others were playing pathfinder classes (rogue, druid, and kineticest? Elementalist? Whatever). It works as long as everybody knows what their class does and the DM is flexible.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:13 am

Hicks wrote:Not really. I been in several games where I was playing a 3.0 cleric, my step kids were playing 3.Tome knight and barbarian, and 3 others were playing pathfinder classes (rogue, druid, and kineticest? Elementalist? Whatever). It works as long as everybody knows what their class does and the DM is flexible.

Were you playing a 3.0 cleric in a game with Pathfinder rules? Because I think there are a significant number of nuances in Pathfinder that a 3.0 player would be (unpleasantly) surprised by.

Of course, if you're playing in a game that's kind of loosey-goosey about rules in general, it probably wouldn't be a problem.

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:18 am

hogarth wrote: Of course, if you're playing in a game that's kind of loosey-goosey about rules in general, it probably wouldn't be a problem.

This I believe. People aren't computers that crash down when two different codes show up.

As Frank and others point out, plenty of people out there may claim to be fully playing PF when they're unconsciously (or not) still using 3.5 rules that were discretly changed in PF.

Just like nobody ever notices that 3.5 monks aren't proficient with unarmed strikes.

MisterDee · Post by **MisterDee** » Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:06 am

How well do the Automatic Bonus Progression work?

Asking for a huh, friend who'd like to use them, because he has a weird "must be an option already programmed in Hero Lab" condition.

(Figure that said "friend" has no problem divorcing the party from the WBL guidelines otherwise.)

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:13 am

It's functional enough, but I wouldn't force the either/or armor and shield or two weapons split. If you're wielding the thing and attune to it, it gets the bonus.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:22 am

The bonuses are "better than nothing" but fall well short of what you'd need to be level appropriate. There are basically two strain points:

The first is that Shadows and Allips start showing up at level 3. The party should have two or three magic weapons by that point, but if you're waiting for the regular automatic bonus progression to give everyone weapon attunement, it doesn't kick in until level 4. That can leave your entire team facing incoporeal opposition with no magic weapons and then everyone dies.

The second is that just like the regular WBL shit, it doesn't keep pace with what characters actually need to be level appropriate. Characters need to be getting more slots filled and those items need to be growing every three levels. The Automatic Bonus Progression doesn't give you the breadth you need (a Fighter doesn't get an amulet of health or gloves of dexterity equivalent until level 13, which is bullshit), and it also doesn't progress nearly fast enough (walking around at level 8 with a +1 Sword is basically an insult).

If you took the 2 levels earlier option for supposedly no-magic campaigns, and you gave out items normally, Fighters still wouldn't get the equipment they need because that is how fucking short the WBL numbers are in the middle levels. But it would be better. There isn't a single level where the Automatic Bonus Progression accidentally gives out anything too early, even if you select the sped up version. It's extremely conservative.

-Username17

Antariuk · Post by **Antariuk** » Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:04 am

And I wouldn't be surprised if that is indeed intentional on Paizo's part because encounters with level-appropriate critters tend to be so very boring, especially if the party operates with sufficient WBL funds.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:29 am

Antariuk wrote:And I wouldn't be surprised if that is indeed intentional on Paizo's part because encounters with level-appropriate critters tend to be so very boring, especially if the party operates with sufficient WBL funds.

I don't think there's anything intentional about it at all. The numbers are really small because they didn't want to be accused of being over powered. The end.

Say what you will about WBL in the original 3e DMG, but it's really mathematically elegant. There are quadratic costs and exponential expected fund reserves and percentile item generation and all the bits fit together. If you roll up all the treasure parcels, you actually do get the values the book says you do and peoples' expected magic item take home really is what the book says it is. The problem is simply that for most of the levels people actually play, the expected equipment does not keep up with the need for equipment.

Pathfinder, by contrast, is not methamatically elegant. Their WBL numbers are just different enough to avoid copyright infringement based on the fact that some of the charts they are referencing are not in the SRD. These are not numbers derived from some obsessive math geek's formulae, these are random ass pulls.

The Automatic Bonus Progression is derived simply from someone spending less than half of the WBL off the chart on generic bonuses each level. That's the whole thing. No more thought went into it than that.

Count Arioch the 28th · Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:18 pm

I was considering bumping up the automatic bonus progression by two levels but was worried it would be too much, but if people who are good at math say it isn't I'm not going to sweat it. I'm also completely ignoring wealth per level entirely and not halving treasure like the book says to if you bump everything up by 2 levels.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:06 am

The weapon and armor attunement are a real fuck-you, since magic weapons overwrite your bonuses. Using a flaming burst longsword at 13th level means no enhancement bonus at all, unless the cleric hits you with Greater Magic Weapon. Warriors are back exactly where they started, with just a little more shit rubbed in their faces.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:03 am

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:I was considering bumping up the automatic bonus progression by two levels but was worried it would be too much, but if people who are good at math say it isn't I'm not going to sweat it. I'm also completely ignoring wealth per level entirely and not halving treasure like the book says to if you bump everything up by 2 levels.

It's way worse than that. You're supposed to halve treasure if you give out the regular bonuses and nearly zero out treasure if you give out the bonuses at level +2. Which is a huge power down because those bonuses aren't worth your normal expected WBL. The issue is that the bonuses are so conservative, and the WBL numbers so insufficient at the levels most players play, that giving out the full level +2 bonuses and giving full treasure still wouldn't be enough to get people reasonably kitted out with equipment.

Part of it is that the bonuses involved just aren't very big. But there's definitely a bit of the problem that Catharz mentioned where (especially) due to weapon and armor abilities you're going to need to get some of these items in real form and the automatic bonuses don't stack.

-Username17

Count Arioch the 28th · Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:38 am

No shit? That's the cocksuckingest thing I've ever heard.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:46 am

So, Paizo just released my favorite bit of errata (or FAQ or whatever they call it). The trait Improvisational Equipment had a single sentence added to the end.

Benefit: When using an item for anything other than its intended purpose—such as using a crowbar as a grappling hook or an old shirt to bandage a deadly wound—reduce the improvisation penalty by 2. This does not apply to improvised weapon penalties. Your GM may rule that some things are just not suitable for use in certain ways; for example, gluing a dead orc’s face to your own face won’t help you disguise yourself as an orc.

I kinda want to know the story behind that.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:53 am

I'm guessing someone watched Deadpool right before game.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:08 am

That's from Will Save World for Gold.

Currently facing down Kidneypinchers.

From there for another lots of pages until the robot with the Orc face glued on passes for an Orc. As you do.

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:04 am

FrankTrollman wrote:Say what you will about WBL in the original 3e DMG, but it's really mathematically elegant.

I don't see how it can be mathematically elegant with the "you sell at half-price" rule.

Let's consider Sword Bob, who's specialized with swords. If Sword Bob finds a +2 sword, he's happy. But if he find a +2 axe, he has to sell it (he's doing better with his +1 sword), and now he must find a second +2 axe before he gets his +2 weapon. And that isn't even considering crap items (a +2 axe can be useful, but a bag of trick?).

It means the wealth of a character may vary from simple to double. How can this be mathematically elegant ?

TiaC wrote:So, Paizo just released my favorite bit of errata (or FAQ or whatever they call it). The trait Improvisational Equipment had a single sentence added to the end.

Benefit: When using an item for anything other than its intended purpose—such as using a crowbar as a grappling hook or an old shirt to bandage a deadly wound—reduce the improvisation penalty by 2. This does not apply to improvised weapon penalties. Your GM may rule that some things are just not suitable for use in certain ways; for example, gluing a dead orc’s face to your own face won’t help you disguise yourself as an orc.
I kinda want to know the story behind that.

Great.

"Improvisation penalty" isn't a thing that exists in Pathfinder, so the trait doesn't do anything anyway.

I guess some smartass at Paizo though it was more important to write an errata describing an edge case where it doesn't work, than writing an errata to make the feat work at all.

Covent · Post by **Covent** » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:26 pm

So...

There is a thread going on, on the Paizo boards where there are totaly people giving the advice of "Just Deal with it." or "You are a being greedy/pushy." when a person came there and asked what he should do about the fact that IC his wizard did not know what spells to prepare because with successful knowledge checks his GM does not give him any info about saves or spell resistance.

He is trying to figure this out in game or find a strategy IC to deal with it and is getting push back...

Full disclosure: There is also some decent advice given but the S/N ratio is terrible and stunned me a little.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:59 pm

Knowledge rules are fucking garbage If you beat the DC by 40 you get to know 8 things or 9. I know monsters with more than 9SLAs. You could learn the AC, Touch AC, Flat-Footed AC, Base Speed, HD, HP, and skill ranks for that. And you will never beat a DC by 40, since some CR 10 monsters have DCs of 40.

There is no in game solution except to learn the entire monster manual by heart, and metagame the shit out of everything.

Or you know, play with a DM capable of recognizing the rules are shit, and use mine instead.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:32 am

What's an OK lvl6 or lower build for an Alchemist that uses a gun? The idea being infusing your bullets with alchemical stuff and shooting the badguys.

The most straightforward thing I've seen is Gunslinger 1/Alchemist (Grenadier) 5. Is there anything useful to do with deeds gained from a 1 level dip?

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:42 am

Kaelik wrote:Knowledge rules are fucking garbage If you beat the DC by 40 you get to know 8 things or 9. I know monsters with more than 9SLAs. You could learn the AC, Touch AC, Flat-Footed AC, Base Speed, HD, HP, and skill ranks for that. And you will never beat a DC by 40, since some CR 10 monsters have DCs of 40.

That, and the DC increase when the CR increase. Therefore random peons know what a kilmoulis is, but they don't know what a dragon is. It's fucking stupid.

Orca · Post by **Orca** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:25 am

OgreBattle wrote:What's an OK lvl6 or lower build for an Alchemist that uses a gun? The idea being infusing your bullets with alchemical stuff and shooting the badguys.

The most straightforward thing I've seen is Gunslinger 1/Alchemist (Grenadier) 5. Is there anything useful to do with deeds gained from a 1 level dip?

The most important deed you'd get would be quick clear, assuming that you take the siege gunner archetype for the gunslinger to get int-based grit. Guns will misfire and being able to fix that fast is handy.

I'd be tempted to just get EWP (some pistol) as a normal feat and go with grenadier alchemist 6 though. As an alchemist you've got any number of things you can do if your gun's out of action, and at 6th level you get alchemical weapon becoming a swift action, another discovery and the ability to take discoveries which have alchemist 6 as a prereq - dispelling bomb for example.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:35 am

So, I'm looking at the various magic cybernetics stuff in PF for my space fantasy drow ripper doc, and one category, Fleshwarping/Fleshcraft Grafts, is pretty awesome conceptually and comes with penalties (to kind of reflect that you're, Iunno, injecting straight chaos into shit, I guess). Of course there is no fucking system for pricing penalties.

So, assuming that we're not going to use Tome style items, at least broadly, how would you value a penalty to a skill, or being treated as a vermin for effects? I'm working on Fleshcraft arm grafts that basically turn the bearer's arms into spiders, aesthetically, and figured "make them have to worry about their arms getting hedged out by antipathy" was at least a conceptually fitting penalty. Also a Diplo. penalty, since, well, their lower arms are fucking spiders, and even drow don't like people who permanently manifest overt arachnid features.

Covent · Post by **Covent** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:55 pm

Paizo announced that RPG superstar is now on indefinite semi permanent hiatus and now a bunch of 3pp people are starting to work towards getting a 3rd party version going.

I know it is crazy, but I have this wild dream of a huge contest happening, Paizo realizing how crazy popular this was and trying to do their own contest again, but being stymied by a new and better contest so being forced to improve their own.

I know not going to happen, just mad dreaming.

Shrieking Banshee · Post by **Shrieking Banshee** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:45 pm

Am I a bad person if I like pathfinder anyway? Its not good, but its like fast food. Plus i like third party supplements.

SlyJohnny · Post by **SlyJohnny** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:05 am

I enjoy the better early level healing, the class and character options, the archetypes, class skills being a flat bonus, and some fest changes, over 3.5.

I don't enjoy the design philosophy, the deities, the trap options and the massive power disparity between archetypes.