Pathfinder Is Still Bad

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:48 am

TOZ wrote:You're not thinking about it in the context of the goal of the book. The book is about intrigue, political maneuvering, spywork. The benefit of the spell is that the caster isn't there but can still identify who IS there via the target of his spell. This benefit just isn't going to come up in 99% of games because don't you know, you never split the party, but this book is designed for the 1% of games that do bullshit like this.

So it's useful in the 1% of games where you split the party.

But in those 1%, it's useful only if the caster has knowledge (nobility) (implausible -10 classes may cast the spell, but only two classes spend rank in shitty knowledge skills), if he can't go with you or send his familiar (highly implausible - among the two classes who have rank in shitty knowledge skills, one has a familiar and the other can go anywhere - it's the whole concept of this class), if the target will need knowledge (nobility) (implausible), if you can't brief him beforehand about the important heraldry symbols or the important persons (implausible), if the target can't simply ask or listen (highly implausible - if you have to split the party and you're not a moron, the person you send at the court is the one with the highest social skills), if the target will need the info right now (and can't simply ask latter)...

In the end, that's something like 0.001% of the games ? Pathfinder isn't wow or star wars - it's still a niche product. I'm convinced the number of time this spell will be actually useful in any Pathfinder game in the world will be comprised between 0 and 1 - and the number of time the spell will be effectively cast won't be much higher.

Even in the context of the book, it's a waste of space.

Vampire and other WoD games had the problem of having small subfactions inside small subfactions, and in the end several factions were containing 0 or 1 member.

Pathfinder develops this concept in a new entertaining way: having niche feats and spells inside niche splatbooks, while already being a niche product. In the end, some feats exist for a niche of at most 1 player. That's an awesome way of wasting space.

Edit : oh, I did not see the duration of the spell. "10 minutes per level". At low level it has a shitty duration and you can't even use it to split the party: use message and charm person instead. At high level, you're high level.

I take back what I said : this spell will be actually useful at most 0 times in any Pathfinder game in the whole world.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:25 pm

Ice9 wrote:
Also, once you get enough magic items, [Non-Tome Non-casters]become pretty decent (for non-casters).

I think that this was the argument Frank & Kieth gave for giving out "infinite" gold to Fighters & Wizards under certain parts of [Tome] economies. The casters & non-casters both approach parity as they also approach infinite gold.

I can't recall which specific economic examination mentions that however. Use Ctrl + F in a Tome pdf I guess.

Covent · Post by **Covent** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:59 pm

So, it looks like RPG Superstar 2016 is "on pause" this year and will most likely not be run. Focus looks to be on Starfinder.

*Sigh*

I honestly love that contest and was looking forward to it. Ah well, guess I will just cut back on the Paizo boards. Been reading them hoping for a RPG Superstar announcement as it is the thing that mostly kept me coming back.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:24 pm

Seriously? why would they "pause" that?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:11 am

Wait, what *is* that?

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Thu Sep 01, 2016 2:53 am

basically a community rpg design writing contest.

Covent · Post by **Covent** » Thu Sep 01, 2016 2:25 pm

It is an open call design contest the prize for which is writing a module for Paizo.

Sorry on my phone will link later.

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:41 pm

So... the prize is giving them free work?

Or is it a paid freelancing gig?

Covent · Post by **Covent** » Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:42 pm

Paid

Edit: This is the link to last years RPG Superstar. Not trying to be a shill, and they are not even doing it this year, but I enjoyed the contest.

http://paizo.com/paizo/about/rpgsuperstar

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:23 pm

Covent's essentially got it covered. I got to stage two or so before losing out because my villain wasn't villainous enough.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:55 pm

I am at it again, the lure of Pathfailure has gripped me again. And my gods, have I found something. Adventure Path is Council of Thieves, I came in late at the start of book 3. No point ranting about the group this time, they are adorable, the system newbie was given the bard class (because it is easy, lol), but that is the height of "issues" and the newbie was very willing to learn and is now useful.

anyway, what actually grinds my gear is the AMAZING encounter design. entering the old Pathfinder lodge. group finds a dinosaur skeleton missing, then they find it not missing. so, the breakdown: group is level 5 at this point (slow ap?), encounter has a CR of 7. single huge enemy, enviroment poses no restrictions, just a "wouldn't it be funny if he charged into the walls?" note. It would not be funny, because the Shadowy Triceratops Skeleton would obliterate the wall and most of the building, really.

that piece of shit skeleton, with 14 fucking HD was apparantly not a clue that this CR 7 is not meant for low level characters to deal with, but probably more a slightly higher level mook. why do I have this crazy idea? because it not only does have 91 HP, but a DR 5/bludgeoning and good. that is very relevant if you do not have a power attacking great axe barbarian in the group. because on top of that this piece of shit has the negative energy charged template, which is why its shitty DR will not be bypassed by the regular greatclubs and whatnot. still, you might have a cleric of undead blasting, right? well, fuck you, bonuses to saves AND positive energy resistance 10. so yeah, looks like the group might be chipping at this piece of shit for a while. except the while will not last long. it has one gore attack at +18 for 2d10+15 damage. +1d6 negative energy, because why not add insult to injury. but is that all, I hear you ask. nope. it attacks as if hastened. so it has actually two of those attacks. against level 5 characters. assuming 15 point buy. yeah. there are some more defenses (miss chance) and attacks (love this one, inverted searing ray once every 1d4 rounds. if you want to dick with people you invert the "1d6 per caster level vs undead" part to "1d6 per caster level vs living". because you hate live so much). and it has blindsight, because fuck you trying to stealth past it.

What. the actual fuck. sure, you got a scroll of sunburst, taht might do a dent, but the game strongly hints the big bad is a big bad vampire, so you might not think of using it before you are all dead anyway. how the fuck is this supposed to work? "enter room, reroll characters"? from what I was told this AP is "role playing heavy" not "rogue like".

I can't right now. when I see this shit and remember how people poo poo on even slightly optimized characters, I just ask myself what the authors were smoking that day. or maybe NOT smoking.

luckily the GM was "huh, I guess that is why my GM dropped this encounter" and nerfbatted the shit out of that thing. and we leveled up, so I get to swap some flavor for crunch. Seriously, the one time I goof around and play a fucking healer. yes, an actualy healer. and our "sorcerer" is goofing around with alchemical weapons, so he is neither good at controlling nor destroying shit. fuck you Paizo. for real.

Slade · Post by **Slade** » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:52 pm

Rawbeard wrote: and attacks (love this one, inverted searing ray once every 1d4 rounds. if you want to dick with people you invert the "1d6 per caster level vs undead" part to "1d6 per caster level vs living". because you hate live so much). and it has blindsight, because fuck you trying to stealth past it.

To be fair, even 3.5 suggested some encounters should be over CR+1 or +2 while other below.

But think they will ever print that spell? I like Inverted Searing Ray.

I guess, that encounter they took kid gloves off.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:06 pm

I remember running that entire AP for a group. They were level 6 at the start of Book 3 - and they horrifically died in that building. Not because of the dinosaur, but because of the contents of the basement - mainly because I ran the foes down there as actually aware of their surroundings.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:48 pm

Slade wrote:To be fair, even 3.5 suggested some encounters should be over CR+1 or +2 while other below.

Oh, that is technically correct, but it is still a creature that has 14 levels, and the matching attacks, saves and shit. just using CR flat as written will end in shit and threads that want to prove that CR doesn't work

Slade wrote:But think they will ever print that spell? I like Inverted Searing Ray.

it was a feature of the template, it's not really a spell, just "use this as if it was that spell". I don't really see much reason why to not have it as a "custom" spell in your game.

Slade wrote:I guess, that encounter they took kid gloves off.

No kidding. but that is why it's bad writing, if you toss the players into something like this without giving them the tools to deal with it first, you are an asshole, or an idiot. both maybe. apparantly the story so far was "the group was performing in a stage play". that is quite the jump in difficulty.

virgil wrote:I remember running that entire AP for a group. They were level 6 at the start of Book 3 - and they horrifically died in that building. Not because of the dinosaur, but because of the contents of the basement - mainly because I ran the foes down there as actually aware of their surroundings.

Great, but now the GM might actually review the encounters. she already played the will-o-wisp two rooms further like a derp so it basically did nothing while the fighter (with attack stats I will not question) hacked it to pieces.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:08 pm

Rawbeard wrote:Oh, that is technically correct, but it is still a creature that has 14 levels, and the matching attacks, saves and shit. just using CR flat as written will end in shit and threads that want to prove that CR doesn't work

It's a 15HD undead. Which means it has the HP and BAB of a level 7 character.

It's still a problem because of the bullshit abilities added in like DR 5/-, positive resistance 10, bonus damage, hasted attacks, and a spell.

4 Elementals have 136-152 hit points at CR 7, and DR 10/-
Animated Objects have 146 and hardness.
Aboleths, who live in illusary castles under the sea, have 76HP
Bulettes have 94HP
Whales have 141
Chuuls have 93
Hydras have 87 and fast healing 18
Elephants and Dire Bears have 105
Hill Giants have 102.
Flesh Golem has 79 and immunity to magic

Sure there are a bunch of Caster monsters and Pounce monsters with lower HP. But why you would pretend a 14 undead HD monster is a level 14 monster instead of a level 7 monster is beyond me.

EDIT: And it's saves are +2 Ref and Fort, and +4 Will over 7 Undead HD. It has undead immunities, which is the reason it's annoying not because it has higher saves.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:48 pm

So command undead is a second level wizard/sorcerer spell that just makes that skeleton triceritops your pokemon for the next 5 days, no save.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:29 pm

But why you would pretend a 14 undead HD monster is a level 14 monster instead of a level 7 monster is beyond me.

Are you drunk?

So command undead is a second level wizard/sorcerer spell that just makes that skeleton triceritops your pokemon for the next 5 days, no save.

So you say that is the intended way to deal with it, or did you pointlessly add that a broken part can be broken further? because I can't tell with you guys at the moment.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:50 pm

Rawbeard wrote:
But why you would pretend a 14 undead HD monster is a level 14 monster instead of a level 7 monster is beyond me.
Are you drunk?

No, I'm just not a fucking idiot like you.

They have less HP then every single CR 7 Bruisers. They have +7BAB, which is oftentimes what a level 7 Bruiser has.

A Barbarian 7 with a starting Con of 18 has the same HP and BAB. (Well more HP, but whatever).

It's a fucking level 7 character.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:52 pm

Rawbeard wrote:
But why you would pretend a 14 undead HD monster is a level 14 monster instead of a level 7 monster is beyond me.
Are you drunk?

HD != actual power. I couldn't find the exact monster you're talking about, but if you compare the Paleoskeleton Tricerotops to the Bulette, it looks roughly on par.
Monsters get pretty buff at CR 7. If your party is non-optimized, they might be in some shit.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:49 pm

Having clicked on that, I'm now really confused.

While 91HP is still less than all CR 7 Bruisers, and literally exactly equal to 14d12HD with no con bonus, apparently in Pathfinder they have d8 HD +Cha to HP, and 3/4ths BAB instead of one half.

So it totally has +3 BAB more than a level 7 Barbarian, but still less HP.

Also still has less BAB than every single elemental.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:34 am

A lot of people complained about that dinosaur skeleton on the Paizo boards, along with the doohickey that pops out a shitload of shadows.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:09 am

Is there anything like "Combat Maneuvers Unchained" in PF? The idea of Dirty Tricks seem good but costing a standard action to even attempt to put a minor debuff on someone that can be removed with a move action makes it very situational. Taking a bunch of feats to make it worth using then means you have to make a dedicated "I throw sand in eyes" build.

Could you just throw out the whole idea of CMD's and use fort/ref/will saves with 10+BAB+[whatever attribute you use to punch people] being the DC of trip/disarm/blinding/etc. and have a more playable system?

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:21 am

Rawbeard wrote:
So command undead is a second level wizard/sorcerer spell that just makes that skeleton triceritops your pokemon for the next 5 days, no save.

So you say that is the intended way to deal with it, or did you pointlessly add that a broken part can be broken further? because I can't tell with you guys at the moment.

That is an actual solution to the encounter. As long as the party has a sorcerer, or wizard who didn't ban necromancy, or a rogue with UMD and any one of them has command undead known, or prepared, or on a scroll you win and you get the treasure of a pokemon for at least 3 days and at most for forever. It costs somewhere between 75 and 425 gp, depending if it was one of the 4 free spells chosen between 3ed and 4th level or bought, deciphered, and then re-scribed onto a scroll.

Does every party do this? Well, no, some of them have wizards that banned necromancy or forgot the spell exists or refuses to win every encounter ever with a mindless undead, which is basically any Necrocraft, Rajput Ambari, Skeleton, Zombie, or Paleoskeleton Triceratops you happen to come across in Pathfinder.

Nirallus · Post by **Nirallus** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:32 am

Actually, Pathfinder Wizards don't have banned schools, they have "opposition schools". Instead of having spells of those schools not their spell list, they take two slots to prepare, and the Wizard takes a penalty to craft items with a spell of that school in the ingredients, or whatever.

Mechalich · Post by **Mechalich** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:48 am

Hicks wrote: That is an actual solution to the encounter. As long as the party has a sorcerer, or wizard who didn't ban necromancy, or a rogue with UMD and any one of them has command undead known, or prepared, or on a scroll you win and you get the treasure of a pokemon for at least 3 days and at most for forever. It costs somewhere between 75 and 425 gp, depending if it was one of the 4 free spells chosen between 3ed and 4th level or bought, deciphered, and then re-scribed onto a scroll.

Does every party do this? Well, no, some of them have wizards that banned necromancy or forgot the spell exists or refuses to win every encounter ever with a mindless undead, which is basically any Necrocraft, Rajput Ambari, Skeleton, Zombie, or Paleoskeleton Triceratops you happen to come across in Pathfinder.

Sure, command undead solves that encounter, but it turns what ought to be an highly challenging encounter of throwing a CR 7 monster into an encounter with 5th level PCs into an encounter that is not only trivial, but probably solves several other encounters until the GM gets annoyed and smashes the pokemon.

And an encounter that goes from strong possibility of TPK to suddenly doubling the overall power of the party depending on the availability of a single spell is not a well designed encounter.

I'm looking at command undead and going, well, I guess you don't use mindless undead after level 3 except as chaff. Which okay sure, but if that's the way its going to be there shouldn't a paleoskeleton triceratops anywhere.