Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Username17]

The absolute failure chance change doesn't mean much because generally speaking battles keep going until someone loses. The important question is the number of tirns before you fail a save, because if a round goes by and everyone on team player and team monster makes their saves, the combat goes to a second round.

-Username17

[John Magnum]

Let me actually clarify my reading of hogarth's comment a little further. My parse is that he made a completely correct statement about the absolute, percentile changes that you get as the marginal benefit of a cloak of resistance, and then switched to an incorrect statement about the proportional change in the amount of healing or resurrection you need.

If getting a +2 cloak makes you go from needing a resurrection effect every five battles to needing one every ten battles (because, say, you're the target of one SoD per battle and used to save on 5+ and now save on 3+), how exactly do you spin that as a 10% decrease in your use of party resurrection resources? It sure looks to me like a 50% decrease, because you need to be resurrected half as often.

[hogarth]

If getting a +2 cloak makes you go from needing a resurrection effect every five battles to needing one every ten battles (because, say, you're the target of one SoD per battle and used to save on 5+ and now save on 3+), how exactly do you spin that as a 10% decrease in your use of party resurrection resources?

You're right, my phrasing was wrong. My apologies. My point was that people regularly make choices that negatively affect their PCs much more frequently than once every ten battles.

The reason cloaks of resistance are so ubiquitous is not because they're somehow "essential" (whatever that means), it's that:
(a) they're cheap compared to other permanent items (this is the most important factor),
(b) the use case for a permanent +1 to saves is obvious (as opposed to a swan boat feather token or some other situationally useful item that may get forgotten in that bottom of your backpack), and
(c) there's no other especially useful core magic item that uses the same slot.

[name_here]

It competes with a CHA booster, actually, so it matters to CHA casters and clerics who want bonus turning. The other cloaks are neat but in situational ways vs. boring but generically useful.

[Username17]

There is also a vest of resistance. While some characters have need for a cloak to do something or other, characters who need a cloak and a shirt (note: not armor, shirt slot) are basically nonexistent. The enhancement bonus to saves might as well be slotless.

-Username17

[name_here]

I notice that vest isn't in the 3.5 SRD, quite possibly for precisely that reason.

[Kaelik]

Magic Item Compendium also just writes "You get all the bonuses as slotless because wtf were we thinking that anyone would ever pay extra for these things."

[Sergarr]

It is indeed more usable to calculate it in number of rounds until failing a save; applying that to my previous example, the numbers are:

- Easy save (75% chance to succeed) = 4 average rounds until failing a save, which increases to 6.67 rounds with cloak of resistance +2, a 66% increase.
- Moderate save (50%) = 2 average rounds; => 2.5 rounds, 25% increase.
- Hard save (25%) = 1.33 rounds; => 1.53 rounds, 15% increase.

If you assume that all possible chances to save are encountered at equal rate (which is a fairly stupid assumption, but still), you get a +37% average increase in numbers of rounds until failing a save after you don a cloak of resistance +2, which amounts to needing (1-(1/1.37))=27% less healing/resurrection needed. A slightly more reasonable assumption of save chances being equally distributed between 5+ and 15+ (without the cloak on) gets you +34% to number of rounds, or a 25% decrease in resource consumption. At worst, if all your save rolls are equally in the hard zone (15+ to nat20), it's still +14% rounds and -12% supply usage - close enough to what you've said, but I rather doubt that such situations are very common.

[TOZ]

It competes with a CHA booster, actually, so it matters to CHA casters and clerics who want bonus turning.

Not true in Pathfinder anymore. They consolidated physical boosters into belts and mental boosters into headbands. Of course, I've noted at least one case of +X Str gauntlets coming back in organized play.

[GâtFromKI]

The effect of not having a +2 cloak of resistance (say) is that, out of every 10 saving throws you have to make, you will fail one more than usual. A 10% increase in the amount of healing or resurrection you need is maybe annoying, but it certainly doesn't mean the difference between a playable PC and an unplayable PC. I mean, people play fighter PCs, for god's sake.

I'm nitpicking, but during the time you're waiting for a resurrection, your PC is literally unplayable. And most of the Fortitude and Will saves have the same effect - making your PC unplayable for a while. Having a PC who's playable 10% more of the time is quite a big deal. Maybe Paizils enjoy playing a dead/controlled/paralyzed character, but most of the people I know prefer Smash Bros.

And as signaled before, a character with a +2 to saves is actually playable 20% more than a PC without it - assuming SoL DCs aren't overwhelming (a "standard" PC succeed on a 10+).

[ishy]

There is also a vest of resistance. While some characters have need for a cloak to do something or other, characters who need a cloak and a shirt (note: not armor, shirt slot) are basically nonexistent. The enhancement bonus to saves might as well be slotless.

-Username17

Well, also from james jacobs:

5)What would you think of magical items that grant resistance bonuses to saves that are not cloaks like vest, rings, amulets, etc.?

5) Sounds like a blatant power grab for the greater glory of numbercrunching Superman to me.

[Axebird]

Words fucking fail me.

[Schleiermacher]

While it is obviously fucking idiotic to look down your nose at someone for wanting to put a protective amulet in their D&D game, I am somewhat sympathetic to the idea that the link between form and function in magic items shouldn't be completely arbitrary or cosmetic.

[Lurky Lurkpants]

Jesus christ, James Jacobs. If an amulet that gives you a resistance bonus is a "power grab," you probably shouldn't have fucking written one.

This is the problem with trying to link item slots to certain abilities: in the normal course of thinking up magic items you are going to want to put them in other ones. Paizo decided all the physical stats should be enhanced by belts and all the mental stats by headbands, but even if your GM says no to your pants of dexterity +2 because of that it just means you have to dumpster dive harder for obscure official breaks to the "rule," like certain ioun stones or a Snakeskin Vest.

It also means you are probably ignoring every other cloak in existence because, whether as a player or character in the game world, the choice between the Cloak of Arachnida and the Cloak of Not Being Killed By Spells is bloody obvious.

[Pixels]

Yes, but just about any form + function can be justified if you take even a tiny effort. This ring gives you the strength of ten men. These shiny gold slippers grant you an equally golden tongue. You have a swarm of ioun stones that actively attempt to deflect attacks. Saying that a specific magical function demands a particular form just stops the PCs from coming up with creatively dressed heroes, especially since some items (such as a resistance item) are mandetory past a certain level.

I really like the Earthdawn/Tome system of having a certain number of magic items bound, and who cares what form they take.

[Captain_Karzak]

I finally get to play in a campaign instead of GMing one. But I don't really know Pathfinder. I've played 2 games sessions of it in my entire life, playing two very low-level barbarian characters.

I want to roll up a wizard.

Can you guys help me build one? Please?

We start at level 1, and theoretically go to 20, but in reality I'll be really surprised if we get as high as 7th.

I'm interested in summoning. I figure a good way to go about this is to use the Samsaran Mystic Past Life racial ability to pillage the Summoner spell list for accelerated access to Summon Monster spells.

I've built out the character to level 5. (We start at level 1 though)

Specialist Wizard (Divination - Foresight),
Banned Schools: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (Evocation, Undecided)
Archetype: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Familiar: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (maybe go with Arcane Bond?)

22 PB (per GM), middle-aged Samsaran (-1 Str, -1 Dex, -3 Con, +3 int, +3 Wis, +1 Cha): Str: 6, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 16, Cha 8.

Choose 6 spells for Samsaran MPL - From the Summoner List: SMIV, SMV, SMVII, SMVIII, Maze, and ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (maybe haste?)

Feats:
1: Spell Focus Conjuration (replaces Wizard Scribe Scroll), Augmented Summoning
3: Expanded Summon Monster
5: Evolved Summon Monster, Heighten Spell (Wiz Bonus Feat)

I know this list is missing Acadame Graduate and Superior Summons. I was planning on shenanigans where I do my summoning out of combat by casting Mount or Communal Mount (they are conjuration summoning spells) heightened to max level and then cast Alter Summon Monster to substitute in a monster of the most potent Summon Monster line of spells I can cast. Because I can only switch out one creature when I do this, Superior summons isn't going to do anything for me.

Spells Known at each spell level*: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (kinda depends on what schools I should ban)
[*in addition to the 6 spells learned via crazy racial ability]

Level 1 (just listing the 8 known at chargen)
Charm Person, Color Spray, Comprehend Lang, Mage Armor, Mount, Shield, Silent Image, Technomancy (it's a setting thing)

Level 2 (just listing the 4 spells I am sure to gain from Wiz levels if I make it to level 5)
Alter Summon Monster, Communal Mount (for ASM shenanigans), Glitter Dust, Summon Monster II

Level 3 (just listing the 2 gained from Wiz levels if i make it to level 5)
Fly, Slow


So hopefully all this stuff works the way I think it does?
I don't know what archetypes are good for a wizard.
I don't which schools are optimal to ban.
Basically anything with a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I have no idea what to do.


Thanks for any advice you can give.

[Schleiermacher]

The best schools to ban are your least favorite two of Enchantment, Evocation or Necromancy. (Banning Necromancy is extra good in PF, since you can cast most of the downtime spells anyway with the changes PF made to "banned" schools and Evocation doesn't have any downtime spells.)

Other than that... well, I don't really know PF, and it looks like you have a good idea of what you want to do. Just don't overdo it. You're already playing the strongest class in the game, you don't really need to be dumpster diving to access spells 4 levels early on top of that.

[GâtFromKI]

Familiar: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (maybe go with Arcane Bond?)

Until level 6, a bonded ring is better than a familiar; it's 1 more spell per day, and at those levels you don't have many spells, and you can use a spell directly from your spellbook.

From level 7, the familiar is better than the bonded object: you take the feat improved familiar, you take a fairy dragon or a lyriaken (fairy dragon is better if your MC allows it to use wand), you give it some wands, and you have a cheap version of quicken spell - cumulative with quicken.

Since the campaign is supposed to go to level 20, but you're not sure it will actually go to level 7, it's up to you. If retraining is an option, then you take the bonded ring and you retrain at level 7 for an improved familiar.


Evocation is a good school to ban; the good spells are the force effects (not mandatory, and you can use shadow illusions to cast those anyway), and contingency (very very good spell, but you cast it during downtime using two slots).

You can also ban Enchantment if you're not fond of its out-of-combat utilities; for combat, Enchantment brings only Will SoL to the table, Necromancy and Illusion can do the same and more.

[Orca]

There's an argument that can be made that ASM on a Mount-summoned horse gets you a wonderfully pimped ride but not an hours/level combat monster, from the text in Mount about what you can get it to do vs. that in Summon Monster. Check with your GM before you cross Acadamae Graduate off your intended feat list.

Haste is generally better to have on hand than Slow IME - especially if you're summoning stuff. You've already got a will-save debuff on your list anyway.

For archetypes - if you're going Foresight Wizard then you probably don't want one. Well, maybe Instructor, it gets you a cohort instead of a familiar (which bypasses any arguments about what can and can't use wands), but any other archetype worth having messes with your arcane school.

[ishy]

Well as a wizard who focusses on summoning, instead of improved familiar, you might want to consider shadow project. You will still keep your +4 init bonus from your familiar and turn your familiar into a shadow. And an incorporeal shadow can scout, thus you know when to start summoning; it can debuff by doing strength damage too.

[TOZ]

And Ultimate Equipment errata delivers the nerfs. Welcome to the revolving hat collection, as jingasa of the fortunate soldier only provides a single reroll ever, and the AC bonus is now deflection instead of luck. And boots of speed don't even notice that feather step slippers are now once per day instead of all the time, because seriously no one actually buys the slippers unless they happen to just have the money for them at an early point in their career.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

[Covent]

Yup "Errata" = GlobalSpacialNerfCannnon = Epic Failure

This so reminds me of fourth and is a major reason I quit that game. Unclear rule clarification, ok no problem, spelling/grammar fix, good deal, changing basic functionality because your developers feel a mostly martial option is too strong, thus making printed books worthless as a reference...

*Headdesk*

[Mask_De_H]

Why is W.T. Snacks working for Paizo now? And why can't fighters ever get nice things?

[Covent]

Academe graduate feat lets wizards summon as a standard btw rather than 1 round.