Pathfinder Is Still Bad

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Silent Wayfarer
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Post by Silent Wayfarer »

Archmage Joda wrote:For another installment of worth it or not, is it worth it to play a sorcerer at any point? Like, can a sorcerer do well enough in place of a wizard in a party, or is it still just completely the wizard's red-headed stepchild?
Sadly the latter. See, the sorcerer's big selling point is bloodlines, which you can get with feats, and those bloodline features which you can get with feats scale with your levels too.

Sometimes it may be worth taking ONE level of sorcerer to dip bloodline arcana for nuking the fuck out of people. But that's it.

I'm a lazy bastard so I sometimes pick sorcerer because fuck spell prep. But I won't delude myself that I'm better than a wizzard.
Last edited by Silent Wayfarer on Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

There are some tricks you can pull off with certain bloodlines (Orc/Fire, Fey/Serpentine, Nanite, Destined, Abyssal) and Arcane is perfectly acceptable out the box, but because of the spell level hitch you're still the Wizard's bitch.

EDIT: You're still a full caster, so that makes you worth playing.
Last edited by Mask_De_H on Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Insomniac »

There are some quite strong things to do as a Sorcerer and you can even get Intelligence or Wisdom as your casting stat and some other funky stuff, and at the end of the day, regardless of what you choose to do, you should still not be "worthless." You're a full Arcane caster in an edition embarrassingly biased towards spellcasting.

The Pathfinder Sorcerer should never have lagged a level to Wizards and other fullcasters. That was a mistake.
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Post by hogarth »

Mask_De_H wrote:[..] because of the spell level hitch you're still the Wizard's bitch.
In my experience, one level difference in gaining spells make little difference. What sucks about a sorcerer compared to a wizard is the much, much smaller list of spells known.

(Likewise for oracles and clerics.)
Last edited by hogarth on Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

My experience is that the spell level gap starts mattering less at around 6th to 7th level spells, because the difference in power between 6th to 8th level spells is for the most part less than the difference between 4th to 6th or even 4th to 5th for that matter.

Until you reach that point being a spell level behind hurts. It hurts less for even character levels and if the campaign is going to start and end there you can cope. But I've played delayed level casters before and without fail the thoughts that keep dancing in my brain is stuff like 'oh, man, if only I had a suggestion' or 'I'd slit my mamma's throat for a teleport'.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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hogarth
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Post by hogarth »

Lago PARANOIA wrote: But I've played delayed level casters before and without fail the thoughts that keep dancing in my brain is stuff like 'oh, man, if only I had a suggestion' or 'I'd slit my mamma's throat for a teleport'.
In my experience, a 9th level sorcerer doesn't have any more circumstances where Teleport would come in handy than an 8th level wizard would. But YMMV.

On the other hand, I've frequently been irritated in this fashion: "If I were a 7th cleric I could have memorized Sending with one of my slots, but I'm an 8th level oracle and the odds that I'll be casting Sending 4 times a day are slim to none, so fuck me".
Last edited by hogarth on Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Just a quick build I'm posting to show that even though clerics got turbo-buffed in Pathfinder and arcanists and shamans are a thing now, wizards still got an ace or two up their sleeve.

Gregor Korath, the Magical Mastermind
Human Exploiter Wizard 9, Abjuration and Divination Banned
Exploits/Feats:
L1: Acadame Graduate, Spell Focus: Conjuration, School Understanding" Necromancy {Exploit}, Command Undead {Exploit -> School Bonus Feat}, Scribe Scroll {Wizard Bonus Feat}
L3: Augment Summoning
L5: Evolved Summon Monster, Craft Wondrous Item {Wizard Bonus Feat}, Potent Magic {Exploit}
L7: Superior Summoning
L9: Resilient Illusions (Feat -> Wizard Discovery), Familiar {Exploit}

Notable Equipment: Cord of Stubborn Resolve; Prayer Bead of Karma; Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stone to activate the Prayer Bead of Karma; Headband of Intellect; Cloak of Resistance; various stupid +1 AC and save boosters; various stupid Spellcraft, Concentration, Knowledge: Arcana, and UMD boosters. Has money saved up for undead creation. Few scrolls.

Tactics: Gregor plays like any other mid-level wizard, just turbo-charged. He loves the hell out of the animate dead spell and put most of his resources towards making bloody skeletons in order to cut costs. I've personally played as a necromancer in a few 3E D&D/Pathfinder games and your undead minions can eat through your money like candy if you prefer to have many marginal minions (like I do) instead of one or two badasses. The necromancer school ability gives Gregor Command Undead for even more minions -- however, a strict reading makes the Command Undead feat work off of the cleric level, not the wizard/arcanist level. If your DM decides that RAW trumps RAI, go with Divination or Void instead. Both are just as good or arguably even better, we're just sticking to a theme here.

In combat, he uses one of two tricks to cement his status as minion master: the first one involves illusions, the second one summons. Of course, since Gregor will get access to the advanced shadow conjuration line these tricks sort of blend together at that time and even become redundant. But right now, he's like level 9 people. In any case he opens combat by dropping an illusion on the people he hates (and with Potent Magic, Prayer Beads of Karma, and Resilient Illusions his illusion spells are devillishly hard to resist; they'll only become moreso when he can afford orange prism ioun stones for the resonant wayfinder power and an ebon wayfinder).

Finally, Gregor also has the option of using conjuration magic. Since he can get a +3 to the save DCs of his conjuration spells, this works out very well for him. But don't count out his summons. Since he can cast conjuration spells at -1 round (min. standard action), he summons just as quickly as the occultist arcanist or the summoner-class. Evolved Summon Monster allows him to really beef up monsters that are balanced around one badass attack by giving them two extra claw attacks. Superior Summons allows Gregor to do silliness like drop up to four celestial tigers with Summon Monster V the middle of the enemy line, completely ripping fools to shreds. True Seeing is less of a hassle than you think it would be for an illusionist because it starts only getting common when the shadow spells come online and Gregor can still default to his 'normal' spells, undead minions, and of course summons.

Alternate Builds: There's no reason why Gregor has to be an Exploiter Wizard if you don't want him to be. And honestly it's kind of a suboptimal way to build the character, especially if your DM is big on RAW-nerfs. +2 to the caster level and DC of your spells is boss as fuck, though you could make a strong argument that you'd rather have an Item Arcane Bond and be a Thalossinian Necromancer or a Conjuration (Teleportation) wizard. Especially if your DM holds you to a strict reading of Command Undead.

If you have a feat to spare (Evolved Summon Monster or Craft Wondrous Item is probably the most expendable feats) going half-elf isn't a bad deal. Paragon Surge fucking rules, especially at level 15 and you can use it to snag your ass some Spell Perfection if you keep up with metamagic.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Xhieron
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Post by Xhieron »

So, two weeks later, I'm caught up. I kind of feel like I know you guys for as much time as I've spent reading this thread, almost in the same way that a person in the crowd feels like they know a musician on stage or a comedian doing standup.

So hi. I'm not a refugee or a newly enlightened holdout, just another guy with strong opinions and an over-developed sense of self who didn't know you all existed before a few weeks ago. So as someone who just kind of stumbled across this in a google search, thanks. I don't want to be overly sentimental with my first post, but since I just finished reading years of discussion on this game, it's worth mentioning that you guys are actually a beacon of sense to any wandering eyes not floating on the surface of the Paizo kool-aid lake, and that's actually something to be really proud of.

That said, I'd like to pick your brains now. One thing I've been wondering through this whole behemoth of a thread is where various posters' allegiance actually lies. Like a lot of people right now I'm playing Pathfinder because that's what my group wanted to play. It's certainly not the worst thing in the world, but it's not my first choice (VTM is my first choice); one thing it has going for it, like 3.5, is the whole mini-game of optimization that, to paraphrase Frank, takes a legion of strangers to actually accomplish. One of the benefits of fiddly bits is that if you enjoy optimization you can further differentiate yourself from those who don't have the (astronomical) time for system mastery.

So I say that to ask, would you rather play Pathfinder to 5e? rather play Pathfinder to AD&D 2e? Why? I know there are plenty of other threads here criticizing 5e for being a huge turd, but in my group for fantasy games these three are really the major options on the table. We have one guy who strongly feels anything after 2e has been worse in most ways and another who has been making overtures about maybe playing 5e since the PHB came out. The general consensus here seems to be that PF and 5e are both shit, but if you're going to get a handful of shit either way, which shit smells least bad?

Secondly is the actual char ops stuff. Some of you guys seem to have a much better grasp on optimization than anyone else I've read, so if it takes a forum to build a good character I think I'm in the right place, so I'm going to shamelessly solicit your free expert advice. In the current game I'm playing the healer. So far I've been playing an Oradin build, but due to some other PC team comp changes I'm wanting to go full caster (we have a fighter and a monk now, and even with two levels in Paladin and the rest in Oracle I'm afraid I'm going to break their toes).


I've toyed with building a shaman, witch, or cleric, but I'm open to really anything other than a wizard (because we have one). Here's the thing, though. I recently talked to the DM and he's agreed to allow me to take Improved Familiar and get a small Positive Energy Elemental as a familiar. That seems too good to pass up, since it's maximized cures and +2 levels for purpose of channel (and he can whack me for 1d4 healing any time he's idle). We're also treating the Shaman Life Link as identical to the Oracle version (because RAW are shitty babyfucking shit).

I'm not married to either of those, but they seem like major wins for Team Heal. I've been leaning toward Shaman due to those tricks plus Arcane Enlightenment plus Slumber, but lago's point a few pages ago made me question the action clog implications. Also the spell list is inferior to the Cleric's, and I could always build a ecclesitheurge and get a familiar plus good domain spells.

Any thoughts?

EDIT: Also, am I missing the forest for one nice tree with the familiar? The Harbinger archon seems like a winner too. Right now the team is level 5, but even with a shaman I think I could get an improved familiar at whatever level is required, even though I know that that's strictly speaking against RAW.

In any event, thanks for what you guys are doing. I'm glad to be here.
Last edited by Xhieron on Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Pathfinder is fundamentally 'some guy's 3.5 houserules.' And while those rules make the game unequivocally worse than unaltered 3.5, it still sits sufficently high above the published alpha test that is 5e and the vague suggestions that are 2e to be on an entirely different floor.
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Post by erik »

I would agree with angel above with the caveat that 3.P is generally worse than unaltered 3.5, rather than unequivocally worse (skills were an incremental improvement for one). That still puts it way ahead of 2e, and of 5e such as it is. If I had to choose to play among those three then I would unquestionably be playing Pathfinder.

For your char op queries... Paladin and Oracle don't seem to go well together. I'm not sure if you're being offered the chance to start a new character, or swap out levels, or if you are seriously considering starting a 3rd class with Shaman on top of Pal 2/Ora X. If it is the latter, then :nonono:

If you are allowed to start up as a full cleric or shaman then that sounds best and a bunch of build advice has been laid out depending upon your fancy in the past bushel of pages of this thread. But I'm getting ahead of myself. Don't pick the tool before you pick the task.

If you are trying to optimize then start with what you want to be doing:
1. Try to healbot as quick as you can while the party flails about in combat (Positive Energy Familiar is a handy boon for do this)
2. Buff party members so they feel like superstars
3. Join party members as a beatstick or archer (probably overshadowing them in the process)
4. Summon or otherwise bring other parties to combat (making fighter and monk question their life choices)
5. Lay down battlefield control and save or suck spells
6. Other, please splain

If you aren't building a fresh character then what are your restrictions- meaning what is already set in stone?
• Race
• Stats
• Class Levels (with various traits, mysteries, archtypes chosen)
• Feats
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Post by MGuy »

I came to this site when Pathfinder was being released and it is pretty much the only RPG I play right now. I have about as many concerns with it as I had/have with 3.5 material but it's what my players want to play. I can say that whatever you experienced on Paizo boards are echoed pretty much on every pathfinder forum I've visited, including the 2 groups on FB I'm a part of. I'd rather have a better game but as long as the people in my social group prefer to ply PF that's what I'll do. I've played 2e very little and from my experience, and from what I hear, it's not worth going to and 5th ed just doesn't seem like it's worth my time. 4E really pit my group against any new edition and that ill will has not faded. From what I understand in these discussion of 5E it isn't worth the effort it would take for me to try to convert so I'd say I'm pretty 'stuck' playing PF for lack of a better system.
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Post by Kaelik »

What other people said about some idiot's bad 3.5 houserules vs other games. But then main thing is, Pathfinder is just below the threshhold that I don't want to spend even a second of my spare time actually going through the material, so if my current group said "we play Pathfinder now instead of 3.5" It would basically mean the end of my gaming at least in the short term.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

On the other hand, since Pathfinder chopped up all of the expansion options and put them in the salad bar you don't have that 3.5E D&D nonsense of a character vetoing one PC because they built their character from five different sourcebooks and another PC because they build their PC from two. While I agree that, all other things being equal, more sourcebooks = greater cheese potential this generally worked as another spellcaster powerup.

If I was playing a 3.5E D&D cleric I was more than happy just getting to use the Spell Compendium and Complete Divine, or even just the Spell Compendium. Sword-based characters needed to pick and mix from Complete Warrior, Adventurer, PHB2, Complete Champion, etc. While Pathfinder's 'it's on the wiki' approach is more work on the DM because they have to evaluate expansion options/character sheets individually instead of doing blanket bans, in practice it's a lot more fair to sword-based characters.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Xhieron »

Thanks for the insight, guys. I had to run off to tend to a crying toddler before so I had to cut it a little short. Here's the missing info.

The character will be starting with five character levels in whatever configuration I want. He'll be a tiefling because he's the same character for continuity purposes, but the variant stat bonuses are available and I don't expect to be paying the feat tax for it, so he's basically a reroll. I'm keeping the Godly numbers I rolled before and rearranging them to suit. I don't remember them off the top of my head (not at my home PC atm), but he's able to MAD. According to the DM the campaign will go into the mid teens.

My last character was a summoner, and I got a lot of angry sideways glances for his brand of shenanigans, so I probably won't be depending on that shtick anymore. I also expect the monk and the fighter to die soon despite my best efforts, just by design, but all the same I'd feel better if my offense was of the blastery type instead of beatsticky.

There's plenty of good info out there about clerics, oracles, and witches--not so much shaman yet, and that's part of the debate for me. I feel like the shaman list is missing some things I want, but the Arcane Enlightenment hex plus wandering spirit might be enough to fill in some holes with Wizard powerhouses (something a cleric can't do under any circumstances, since there's no way I'm getting the Dreamed feat approved), and Slumber is nothing to scoff at. And hey, even if it sometimes gets them late, the shaman list does have some nice druid toys that clerics don't have. On the other hand, a cleric is a cleric, and I'm not sure those toys combined would be enough to make it worthwhile to not just say "fuck it, why reinvent the wheel? Cleric's still on the table and it's the best there is. Let's do that."
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Post by Schleiermacher »

I know I'm not the guy you wanted to hear from, Xhieron, but I thought it was an interesting question.

I would actually rather play 2e or 5e than Pathfinder, with some caveats.

For example, if you go strictly by what's in the books like you're Frank writing a review, 5e is not only a bad RPG but is in fact so incomplete that for someone brand new to roleplaying I think it's hardly even playable -and I do mean you literally could not play the game, there are too many things left undefined so you won't know what to do.

But if you're like me and you've played 3.x for many years, then (as I'm pretty sure the 5E developers did and I'm suspecting they actually meant for people to do, although it would be really weird if they were conscious about it) you will fill in the blanks - like skill rules - with functional rules from 3E as you go, and then 5E becomes a really fun casual game that I'd play over Pathfinder any day and twice on Sundays -at least until you get past level 8 or so and realise that because of "bounded accuracy", so-called high-level play in 5E can never be anything but bullshit.

As for 2E, I agree with others here that Pathfinder is probably, objectively speaking, a better game than 2E. But Pathfinder is a game I see absolutely no reason to play while 3E exists, and 2E is at least different. So having never played 2E apart from a few convention games, having found the 2E books at least enjoyable to read, and being honestly a bit curious as I like trying a wide variety of RPGs, I would rather play 2E than Pathfinder.
Last edited by Schleiermacher on Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Silent Wayfarer »

I go with Pathfinder because 3.x is "my" edition; I got into RPGs when 3e just launched. 4e was too boring, 5e is a joke, while I'm not that familiar with 1/2e.

I also go with Pathfinder because it's actively supported, I like the art, and they produced their own SRD, which basically means anytime I have the internet I have access to the PF rules. That's huge.
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Post by rasmuswagner »

Lago PARANOIA wrote: Prayer Bead of Karma; Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stone to activate the Prayer Bead of Karma;
That's a....liberal rules interpretation. But whatever, UMD, a trait for a spell-like, it's not a hard requirement to meet.

(For those watching at home, Bead of Karma requires divine spellcasting ability to activate, and Lago says a Ring of Spell Storing covers that).
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Post by Silent Wayfarer »

Eh, aren't there a bunch of feats which unlock a racial SLA or three, some of which might be divine in nature?
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

It doesn't matter. You can just UMD the damn thing. At 20 it's a pretty easy check to make.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Archmage Joda »

Speaking of casters in pathfinder, how does the Witch measure up? Is it just a waste of space in a world where there's already the wizard and sorcerer classes, or is it also a worthy caster class in its own right?
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Post by Silent Wayfarer »

It's got some pretty neat class features and it's a wizard-style arcane caster. Not as good in raw power, but flavorful and still quite strong. Protip: Be a Scarred Witch Doctor with Pit-Touched Bloodline from feats.
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Post by erik »

I though protip for witches was to be a shaman instead.
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Post by rasmuswagner »

Archmage Joda wrote:Speaking of casters in pathfinder, how does the Witch measure up? Is it just a waste of space in a world where there's already the wizard and sorcerer classes, or is it also a worthy caster class in its own right?
Well....you're no Wizard, that's for sure. But IME, you'll be very, very good at "idling".
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Post by Xhieron »

erik wrote:I though protip for witches was to be a shaman instead.
This is the impression I've gotten as well. Shaman miss out on Hair and Ice Tomb (only because Slumber is too good not to take), but otherwise can do almost everything witches can do and often better in addition to their own suite of toys, plus a better chassis.

The shaman list doesn't seem as good as the witch list in terms of being like the wizard list, but because of list-stealing proliferation there are at least two ways to plug holes, and it's not like having most of the druid list plus some cleric spells (and always knowing them all) is bad by any means.
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Post by Orion »

Is there an executive summary of this 200-page thread? I last looked at this game during beta, and it looks like many of the egregious problems from back then got cleaned up. Is it now appreciably worse than 3.5,what are the talking points on its badness, and would you take an opportunity to run it?
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