Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[fectin]

Clerics in full plate seem to set off less min-maxing complaints. YMMV, but do that and go with some sort of yelling-based roleplay.

[mean_liar]

I was tooling around with this and came up with bouncing between Warpriest (Sacred Fist), Monk (Master of Many Styles + Kata Master), Fighter (Unarmed Fighter) to get Flurry and all kinds of high-level feats. There are a couple of interesting things going on: 1, a Gauntlet is a Monk weapon you can Flurry with, 2, Monk+Warpriest AC bonus stacks, 3, Fighter provides Reach monk weapon access (Kusurigama) and Light Armor (ie, Mithral Breastplate with Brawling), and you get enough feats to have both Pummeling Charge, Snake Fang, and Panache (Riposte): you can pounce, full attack, then parry/riposte one attack as well as AoO against a miss (with another Imm Action attack to follow that up)... with 4 levels.

The problem is of course that you're a Warpriest who has gone three levels off the reservation. Fervor is awesome but the delayed casting, further delayed, is clearly unideal. I'm thinking after that setup of transitioning to Cleric because the delayed Warpriest casting is pretty lousy, but then there's still the promise of Fervor and the Ki pool.

[mean_liar]

...double post.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Or you're running an unarmed strike build you could just forget about flurry of blows altogether. If you're using light weapons, it's seriously not that great of a class feature. It gives you pseudo-fighter TWF BAB, which is good, but compared against someone who can select bonus feats as if they had fighter BAB it's not that much better. Assuming that you sank your feats into the TWF/ITWF/GWTF:

Level 1-5: Same number of attacks. You're ahead +2 on attacks though, which is really helpful.
Level 6-7: FoB gets an extra attack at full BAB. Warpriest picks up ITWF. They have the same number of attacks, but FoB does them at +6/+6/+1 and the warpriest does it at +4/-1/-1. That's awesome but unfortunately it's also as good as it gets for the FoB guy.
Level 8-10: FoB gets their extra attack at -5, the warpriest gets it at +0. The FoBer's only advantage is again the +2 to attack rolls.
Level 11: FoB pulls ahead and gets another attack at -10. Unless the warpriest is taking the bonus feat favored class option and intentionally delayed completing it, that's an attack that the FoB guy has that the full warpriest doesn't.
Level 12-15: The warpriest picks up GTWF and goes back to making the same number of attacks. Both the warpriest and FoB pick up an extra attack at level 15, so that's a wash.
Level 16+: FoB gets an extra attack that the warpriest will never get, but who gives a flying fuck at this point? It's at -15 and the game was already over for non-full casters.

FoB does have its uses. It's great for using them with weapons that can't be TWF'd with one weapon or at all, like a glaive or a spiked chain. But there's no point in using it at all for unarmed strikes, especially when you have to sac Sacred Weapon to get it and the other archetypes provide OMG huge damage bonuses.

Two other things:
1.) Ki Pool is a crap ability on a Warpriest. Warpriest, like most of the newer classes, suffers from serious swift-action clog. Even though Sacred Fists don't have sacred weapon/armor to worry about, blessings and fervor will consume enough of your swift as is. It'd be a great ability to have on a frontline class that wasn't so action-clogged, but Warpriest is not one of those classes. Adding a scaling insight bonus to your AC when you're ambushing is nice, though, but whoops! You sacced Sacred Armor. Le Sigh.

2.) You're planning to use the unarmed attack only + Kusari-gama + light armor. Unfortunately for you, either a RAW or RAI reading causes a contradiction. Sacred aren't saddled with the weapons and armor restrictions of monks (don't expect for this to last for too long, though) but they are crucially lacking the clause from the monk which lets them make unarmed strikes despite the fact that their hands are full. Unless your DM invokes rule negative two or takes pity on your character, one of these is going to have to go. You can't simultaneously invoke a strict reading of your features and a common sense reading of the monk unarmed strike.

[ishy]

There are a couple of interesting things going on: 1, a Gauntlet is a Monk weapon you can Flurry with, 2, Monk+Warpriest AC bonus stacks, 3, Fighter provides Reach monk weapon access (Kusurigama) and Light Armor (ie, Mithral Breastplate with Brawling),

But if you're giving up sacred weapon, gauntlets do 1d3 damage.
And you can't have the Monk AC bonus if you're wearing light armour.

[Lago PARANOIA]

And you can't have the Monk AC bonus if you're wearing light armour.

Ignoring Sacred Armor, especially in Pathfinder, isn't a bad idea.

[ishy]

Wasn't talking about sacred armour, was talking about getting wisdom mod to armour class twice.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

... but they are crucially lacking the clause from the monk which lets them make unarmed strikes despite the fact that their hands are full.

Wait, that's a rule in Pathfinder? Not that I would follow a rule like that because unarmed strike specifically mentions kicks and headbutts as attacks, but source?

[name_here]

The monk description specifically says that monks can make unarmed strikes when their hands are full. It's not stated that other characters can't, and the unarmed strike description in combat says they include headbutts and kicks.

Presumably, it's mentioned in the monk description specifically purely as a reminder.

[TiaC]

Wasn't talking about sacred armour, was talking about getting wisdom mod to armour class twice.

Except that according to James Jacobs you can't do this. Just another stupid forum ruling.

[Covent]

Nothing on the forums is official only FAQ and Errata are rulings, and James has stated several times that he is not a "Rules Guy" and does not give rulings.

Also the designer of the archetype did say he would let it stack, here

[mean_liar]

Eh. The cestus description allows a workaround anyhow: "When using a cestus, your fingers are mostly exposed, allowing you to wield or carry items in that hand, but the constriction of the weapon at your knuckles gives you a –2 penalty on all precision-based tasks involving that hand (such as opening locks)."

You can still punch the shit out of things while wearing a cestus. You cna make the case that you can do so with a gauntlet as well.

Regarding Light Armor... that's a Mithral Breastplate +X with brawling. Don't pass that up. WISx2 to AC is nice, but about as effective as Magic Vestments and magic armor.

The bigger issue (for me) is being a Cleric without accessible non-Quickened spells but a Reach weapon vs being a Warpriest with a ki pool and more swift action options than swift actions.

[ishy]

Wasn't talking about sacred armour, was talking about getting wisdom mod to armour class twice.

Except that according to James Jacobs you can't do this. Just another stupid forum ruling.

Well they did put out a new FAQ that says it doesn't stack. Because apparently wisdom modifier is a source (and always has been), and thus since both abilities add your wisdom modifier they don't stack.

[Longes]

Apparently there was a new paladin archetype added in one of the books: Enlightened Paladin aka Irorian Paladin. It... actually looks very interesting. Some of its abilities blow, but the flavor is nice, and the archetype is very functional. It's like monk, but without all the suckage.

Enlightened paladins follow no universal paladin code—each paladin in his service creates his own code as part of his spiritual journey, seeing the adherence to such a self-formulated creed as one of the many tests one must face to reach perfection.

Sold. Done deal. You still have to be LG, but you are no longer fucked by the DM's perception of chivalry or good.

Confident Defense (Ex)

At 1st level, when wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, an Enlightened paladin adds 1 point of his Charisma bonus (if any) per class level to his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class. If he is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus, he also loses this bonus.

This ability replaces his proficiency with medium armor, heavy armor, and shields.

Charisma is your good stat, and you add it to the saving throws. By taking an oracle dip you can add Charisma twice. By taking Monk (Sohei) dip you can add Wisdom to AC and flurry with the good Monk weapons. Congratulations. You are a well armored light armor combatant.

Unarmed Strike

At 1st level, an Enlightened paladin gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. In addition, he gains the unarmed strike monk ability, treating his monk level as half his paladin level (minimum 1) for calculating his unarmed strike damage.

Whatever. You can switch to unarmed attacks at about level 8, but before that this is not important.

Aura of Law (Su)

The power of an enlightened paladin's aura of law is equal to his class level.

This ability replaces aura of good.

Whatever. You are LG, so the aura does nothing for you.

Sense Perfection (Su)

At 1st level, at will, an enlightened paladin can detect life forces as if he were using a paladin's detect evil class ability; however, instead of sensing evil creatures, he senses creatures that have a ki pool. Each such creature has an aura like a cleric of an aligned deity, and treats its current number of ki points as its Hit Dice for the purposes of this ability.

This ability replaces detect evil.

Pfhahahahah. What? Why would I ever want to use that? Argue with DM to replace it with Detect Chaos.

Personal Trial (Su)

Once per day, an enlightened paladin can as a swift action declare one target within line of sight as his personal trial. The Enlightened paladin gains a +1 insight bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against that creature, to his AC against attacks made by the target, and on saving throws against the target's spells and special abilities. This bonus increases by 1 at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, to a maximum bonus of +6 at 20th level. The personal trial effect remains until the target of the trial is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains daily uses of this ability. At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the Enlightened paladin can use personal trial one additional time per day.

This ability replaces smite evil.

This is quite good. It's weaker than Smite Evil, but you can use it against anyone. Even those annoying Lawful Good people who you had to kill normally before.

Ki Pool (Su)

At 4th level, an enlightened paladin gains a ki pool with an effective monk level equal to his class level. The number of points in an Enlightened paladin's ki pool is equal to 1/2 his class level + his Charisma modifier. By spending 1 point from his ki pool, he can ignore any damage reduction possessed by the target of his personal trial ability for 1 round. This ability otherwise functions as the monk ability of the same name and replaces channel positive energy.

Monk ki abilities are situationally useful, but nothing to be excited about. Given the uselessness of Channel PE this is a good trade.

Divine Body (Su)

Upon reaching 5th level, an enlightened paladin must form a bond with a weapon, except he can only choose to enhance his unarmed strike. This ability otherwise functions as and replaces divine bond.

Your fists now have enchantments on them. You laugh at monks and punch their teeth in.

Aura of Perfection (Su)

At 11th level, whenever an enlightened paladin or ally within 10 feet would reroll a die and take the second result even if it is lower (via the good fortune ability of the Luck domain, for example), he can roll an additional die as part of the reroll and use the higher of the two as the result of the reroll. This ability functions only while the Enlightened paladin is conscious, and replaces aura of justice.

Situationally useful, but you didn't give up anything for it.

So, congratulations everyone. Monk is finally playable. As a paladin with one level Sohei dip.

Paladin 1/Monk (Sohei) 1/ Paladin X. Use Sansetsukon until you hit level 8, then switch to unarmed strikes.

[ishy]

Charisma is your good stat, and you add it to the saving throws. By taking an oracle dip you can add Charisma twice.

Adding an untyped charisma bonus to X doesn't stack, since they are from the same source (charisma).

[Longes]

Charisma is your good stat, and you add it to the saving throws. By taking an oracle dip you can add Charisma twice.

Adding an untyped charisma bonus to X doesn't stack, since they are from the same source (charisma).

Hm. Now that I read it more carefuly:

Prophetic Armor (Ex): You are so in tune with your primal nature that your instincts often act to save you from danger that your civilized mind isn't even aware of. You may use your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) as part of your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor's maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma, instead.

On the one hand, you can dump your dexterity and have Cha*2 as your base AC. On the other, it's a loss of a level for nothing. So I'm not sure.

[ishy]

No, you can't have cha to AC twice, because bonuses from the same source don't stack.
(Though it does work for typed bonuses, thus you can have a cbarisma bonus to AC and a Charisma bonus to deflection)

[virgil]

Charisma isn't the source for AC, Prophetic Armor & Confident Aura are.

[ishy]

Charisma isn't the source for AC, Prophetic Armor & Confident Aura are.

You're mistaken, in pathfinder Charisma is the source of the bonus. But Prophetic Armour & Confident Aura are also considered sources.
- Edit: See the FAQ

[Username17]

If you want to get technical, if an ability says "add a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier" then it creates an unnamed bonus that stacks with everything; if an ability says "add an enhancement* bonus equal to your Charisma modifier" then it creates a named bonus that does not stack with other bonuses of the same named type; and if it says "add your Charisma modifier" then it creates a named bonus whose name is "Charisma" and doesn't stack with other abilities with exactly that wording.

However, Pathfinder authors are not particularly meticulous about this sort of thing, and use the different wordings pretty much interchangeably without any regard for what the sentences are actually saying. So you know, whatever.

*: or whatever

[Kaelik]

Charisma isn't the source for AC, Prophetic Armor & Confident Aura are.

You're mistaken, in pathfinder Charisma is the source of the bonus. But Prophetic Armour & Confident Aura are also considered bonuses.
- Edit: See the FAQ

Did you actually read that?

It literally says, "If the words say X, what they really mean is Y."

That is... once again, still not the proper use of an FAQ, because FAQs do not get to change the rules in the book.

[Longes]

I'm still not convinced that spending one level to reduce your MADness to mere three attributes (str, con, cha) is good. I'm also trying to see if there is anything good to be done with the Sorcerer dip and going into the Dragon Disciple. By FAQ Natural Attacks are not a valid weapon for Flurry of Blows, but if we ignore that, or don't dip Sohei - is there anything interesting?

Looking at the Sohei's entry in the SRD I see this gem:

The original author of this archetype stated that the sohei is not intended to be able to flurry while wearing armor. The weapon and armor proficiency section of the archetype was not meant to override the restriction on those aspects of the monk.

[Author's Statement]

HOWEVER, the official FAQ indicates the sohei CAN flurry while wearing armor.

[Official FAQ]

Consult your GM to be sure which ruling your campaign is using.

Herp-derp, armored monk archetype can't use his monk abilites while armored.

[ishy]

Did you actually read that?

It literally says, "If the words say X, what they really mean is Y."

That is... once again, still not the proper use of an FAQ, because FAQs do not get to change the rules in the book.

I did read it, yes.

Oh and,

Rules changes, as of late, have been noted with "This will be reflected in future errata". Or at least, we're trying to get better about that. You'll see it in the ACG FAQs. The result of this particular FAQ, however (that ability modifiers don't add in multiple times), was unanimous consensus among the Design Team of how the rules currently work, so it doesn't have that tag.

[Kaelik]

Did you actually read that?

It literally says, "If the words say X, what they really mean is Y."

That is... once again, still not the proper use of an FAQ, because FAQs do not get to change the rules in the book.

I did read it, yes.

Oh and,

Rules changes, as of late, have been noted with "This will be reflected in future errata". Or at least, we're trying to get better about that. You'll see it in the ACG FAQs. The result of this particular FAQ, however (that ability modifiers don't add in multiple times), was unanimous consensus among the Design Team of how the rules currently work, so it doesn't have that tag.

The unanimous consensus of the dev team is that X=~X.

If this were anything but Pathfinder, I might be surprised.

[rasmuswagner]

It was so unanimous that this is how the rules already work, that they let the issue spawn multiple threads of hundreds of posts for years.

Just like the good old flurry of blows FAQ. Fucking shitweasel sloppy-ass english majors.