Pathfinder Is Still Bad

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:36 am

3.5 DMG wrote:Creating New Spells
...
• Wizards and sorcerers should not cast healing spells, but they should have the best offensive spells. If the spell is flashy or dramatic, it should probably be a wizard/sorcerer spell.
• Clerics are best at spells that deal with alignment and have the best selection of curative and repair spells. They also have the best selection of information-gathering spells, such as commune and divination.
• Druids are best at spells that deal with plants and animals.
• Rangers and paladins should not have flashy attack spells in
the manner of magic missile and fireball.
• Bard spells include enchantments, information-gathering spells, and a mixture of other kinds of spells, but do not include powerful offensive spells such as cone of cold.

Antariuk · Post by **Antariuk** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:00 am

Juton wrote:There is a new pathfinder Wizard archetype that lets them cast any spell from the Bard, Cleric or Druid list a few time per day on a delay. They have to give up school specialization to do it, so what could have been awesome is now just meh.

Which one is that?

Considering the number of ways in Pathfinder to cheat some non-class spells into your own list, I think this one only offends because it had to be a wizard archetype, just to rub it in.

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:43 pm

At least it isn't an Arcanist archetype.

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:50 pm

Antariuk wrote:Which one is that?

Considering the number of ways in Pathfinder to cheat some non-class spells into your own list, I think this one only offends because it had to be a wizard archetype, just to rub it in.

It's called Spell Sage. Most similar options in Pathfinder give you a fixed list, either one or two every few levels or a lump sum equal to casting stat +1. This gives every Cleric, Druid and Bard spell, but isn't useful in combat. I'm sure it will lead to lots of optimization shenanigans.

I would suppose that Paizo wants to remind everyone that Wizards are top dogs. But they gave Oracles an ability, that depending on how you read it, lets them select cha Wizard spells for the day. I guess they want to remind everyone this is caster edition then? At least they let martials use long swords with weapon finesse.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:49 am

I actually like the high-tech weapons they added. They're not exactly original (every futuristic RPG since Shadowrun* had a monowhip, nanite swarms are very much accepted in sci-fi, etc), and the prices are crazy, but they seem decent enough, and if someone really wanted to play a gunslinger, you could just give them some laser guns with the promise of eventually getting a DEATH RAY.

*Was Shadowrun the first to do that? It's the earliest I recall seeing it.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:12 am

Monomolecular/monofilament BS is definitely older than Shadowrun. I don't know who first had the specific idea for a magiscience whip of decapitation. I'm going to guess Gibson, because when trying to guess the origins of Shadowrun material Gibson is never not a solid answer.

Edit: oh, wait, in RPG's. Well, Traveller is a decade older than Shadowrun, so they might have beat Shadowrun to the punch. Pretty sure they have monofilament swords, though I can't tell you when they were added.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:08 am

Casting the spell requires the spell sage to spend 1 full round per spell level of the desired spell

if the spell's casting time is normally 1 full round or longer, this is added to the spell sage's casting time.

For example, if a spell sage wants to use spell study to cast cure light wounds (cleric spell level 1st), he must spend 2 full rounds casting

Am I missing something?
- Edit: also, how long does it take to cast cantrips?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:42 am

Monowhips come from Shigawire in Dune. Shadowrun (and Cyberpunk) have them because there was a character with a monowhip attached to a fake fingertip in Gibson's Burning Chrome. But Frank Herbert did it 17 years earlier than Gibson did.

-Username17

Slade · Post by **Slade** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:21 pm

ishy wrote:
Casting the spell requires the spell sage to spend 1 full round per spell level of the desired spell

if the spell's casting time is normally 1 full round or longer, this is added to the spell sage's casting time.

For example, if a spell sage wants to use spell study to cast cure light wounds (cleric spell level 1st), he must spend 2 full rounds casting
Am I missing something?
- Edit: also, how long does it take to cast cantrips?

RAW: free action. RAI (intended): minimum 1 full rd?
I think they meant CMW which is 2 full rds: but hard to say...

FAQ it?

Fwib · Post by **Fwib** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:20 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Monowhips come from Shigawire in Dune. Shadowrun (and Cyberpunk) have them because there was a character with a monowhip attached to a fake fingertip in Gibson's Burning Chrome. But Frank Herbert did it 17 years earlier than Gibson did.

-Username17

Larry Niven had the monowire-encased-in-a-forcefield Variable Sword also in the 1960s - does that come after Dune?

Emerald · Post by **Emerald** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:51 pm

Fwib wrote:Larry Niven had the monowire-encased-in-a-forcefield Variable Sword also in the 1960s - does that come after Dune?

Dune was published in 1965, Ringworld in 1970, so Herbert was indeed first.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:09 pm

Does spell sage work with echoing spell?
What if I cast an echoing spell, then rest and prepare spells again. Do I keep the cleric spell?

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:16 pm

Spell Sage - I considered it for an upcoming character, but the loss of specialization was too much.

Dreamed Secrets, the feat, is much better. Gives any divine caster two Sor/Wiz spells, can be different ones every day. Not much hassle in casting them either. Great for Oracles, in particular.

Count Arioch the 28th · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:44 pm

Huh, the Numeria Campaign Setting has rules for Chainsaws...

I wonder if there's any rules on chainsaws granting you a bonus to social skills? It is the Great Communicator after all...

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:38 am

Fwib wrote:Larry Niven had the monowire-encased-in-a-forcefield Variable Sword also in the 1960s - does that come after Dune?

I think the variable sword was introduced in The Ringworld Engineers, not Ringworld, but I might be misremembering. Ringworld had the super-sharp shadow square wire, though.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:14 am

hogarth wrote:
Fwib wrote:Larry Niven had the monowire-encased-in-a-forcefield Variable Sword also in the 1960s - does that come after Dune?
I think the variable sword was introduced in The Ringworld Engineers, not Ringworld, but I might be misremembering. Ringworld had the super-sharp shadow square wire, though.

There's monowire ("Sinclair Molecule chain") featured as a weapon in Borderland of Sol (1975). I don't remember it specifically being in an earlier Known Universe story tho.

Anywho. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomolecular_wire

Looks like Dune is the winner at 1965

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:53 am

I really should have assumed Dune did it first. With sci-fi stuff, Dune seems to typically be the origins of things.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:22 am

hogarth wrote:
Fwib wrote:Larry Niven had the monowire-encased-in-a-forcefield Variable Sword also in the 1960s - does that come after Dune?
I think the variable sword was introduced in The Ringworld Engineers, not Ringworld, but I might be misremembering. Ringworld had the super-sharp shadow square wire, though.

Variable swords exist in Ringworld.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:34 am

I'm looking for some help. I haven't played Pathfinder at all, and I'm at least four years out of practice with DnDv3.5 in general.

Due to needs of the group, I'm thinking that I should be playing a Warpriest, and for personal reasons that means a Sacred Fist Warpriest.

That said, I'm totally ignorant of the difference between Pathfinder and DnD, and am hopefully looking for some advice on a character build as reading the various books to figure out what all the new shit is, is daunting.

I read through this guide - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fAI ... p5wyzY/pub - and it laid out some basics that look like good advice, but I'm curious about what the Den had to say about things.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:20 am

You've already chosen your class and archetype. Do you want us to pick your feats? You've already filled about 90% of the optimization space, what would you like help with?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:54 am

This is a must-have feat if you're using flurry of blows: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-f ... r-s-flurry

After shacking up with an appropriate deity, take that feat at level 5. Sink one of your feats or whatever into getting the appropriate proficiency. If you get a deity with a great base weapon, at level 6 you can make a ton of attacks with this badass weapon in one round for your level. And while you won't get the strength bonus for wielding a weapon in two hands (not that you'll be getting much of one) you can still use power attack with shit. Combining that with fervor for certain buffs and you'll actually do quite a bit of damage in melee combat compared to most melee classes. With really careful use of your spells and your badass for a 2/3rds-attacker attack scheme, you'll be able to last for about 12 levels. If you get a modest amount of DM pity and no one really tricks out their full-spellcasters, you could probably even make it to level 15 as a fully-functioning frontliner.

That said, my best advice for you if you want to play a Sacred Fist is this: Play another archetype.

You do a lot of attacks, which is nice, but losing sacred weapon really, really sucks. Losing Sacred Armor doesn't suck as badly -- except at higher levels, which you'll be obsolete by then for -- but it's still a kick in the pants. Losing martial weapon proficiencies and heavy armor also really sucks. And while the style feats can be good, I'd rather have regular fighter bonus feats. Cult Leader and Champion of the Faith does more damage if you invest in the TWFing chain despite being behind on attacks. Read over Sacred Weapon and Sacred Armor some more: you're really, really losing out by saccing these things.

If you really want to roll a lot of attack dice in a round Divine Commander is where it's at. Monstrous Mount for a Griffon plus backing that ass up with Evolved Companion for the wings. Animal companions rule in Pathfinder, since you get to select feats for them. Sacred Mount in particular extra rules because they get the celestial template -- which means huge amounts of smiting damage and damage reduction. If you grab a reach weapon or a ranged weapon as well, you and your griffon can easily be rolling around 10 attacks at level 9 that average around 15 points of damage. Which rules.

And at any rate, unarmed damage specialists don't use flurry of blows except at low levels. You can do a lot more damage stacking on gauntlets, amulets of the fist, body wraps, and armor with the Brawling property. An Speaker of the Past Shaman that selects the right archetype and makes very careful selections with their spells and abuses a ring of revelations does OMG huge amounts of unarmed damage at around level 9 or so at the cost of being a glass cannon. By OMG huge, I mean enough to make 3.5E Divine Metamagic: Persistent melee clerics who can't use Pathfinder crap feel a bit small in the pants.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:19 am

mean_liar wrote:I'm looking for some help. I haven't played Pathfinder at all, and I'm at least four years out of practice with DnDv3.5 in general.

Due to needs of the group, I'm thinking that I should be playing a Warpriest, and for personal reasons that means a Sacred Fist Warpriest.

That said, I'm totally ignorant of the difference between Pathfinder and DnD, and am hopefully looking for some advice on a character build as reading the various books to figure out what all the new shit is, is daunting.

I read through this guide - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fAI ... p5wyzY/pub - and it laid out some basics that look like good advice, but I'm curious about what the Den had to say about things.

Starting level?

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:20 pm

I suppose I was looking for any must-have or obscure feat chains that cross between multiple books. Everything else seems pretty straight-forward.

Lago's critique in particular what was I was looking for, since it addresses things that I hadn't considered closely, such as the loss of Sacred Weapon. The Archetype/Class combo I'd picked out was largely out of ignorance and needs which have changed... as it turns out, I'm in a group of non-minmaxers and the group is an Arcane Archer, Rogue, and a new player who I presume will be one of Fighter/Barbarian/Slayer/Brawler. That Archer was previously a full caster of some flavor or another and so I'd considered dropping the Warpriest, since it appears that to shore up the party I'd end up being a full divine caster.

That puts me a bit in a bind, since based on what folks are planning on showing up with, there's going to be a lack of resilience and a lack of divine casting, AND there's going to be an anti-minmaxer aesthetic that means that whatever I'm doing, it should at least look like it's not wildly out of parity.

I'd been thinking the obvious (a Cleric), but a Cleric that brings resiliency is going to set off the minmax alarms and this is an entirely new group I'm joining and therefore I have no great desire to burn bridges with unwelcome levels of optimization. I think (perhaps with some hubris) that buffing will be incapable of shoring up what is being brought the table. That leads back to a Warpriest, since I can sandbag by not being a full caster, I can provide resiliency and melee prowess, and beating ass is something that the GM can more easily handle.

So that's gone a bit full circle: I'm thinking about how to do a Warpriest well. Sacred Weapon does indeed look awesome, Sacred Armor less so. I don't need - and don't want - to overclock damage, and glass cannons are out.

I think I'm resigned to reading through the core Pathfinder books for Feat analysis - the three Advanced Guides and three Ultimate books - but some pointers along the way, as in top tier feat trees, archetypes, and multiclass dips would be greatly appreciated.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:28 pm

Power Attack, Combat Reflexes; For Warpriests, using Vital Strike and size (and virtual size) increasing tricks can be fun.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:31 pm

mean_liar wrote:So that's gone a bit full circle: I'm thinking about how to do a Warpriest well. Sacred Weapon does indeed look awesome, Sacred Armor less so. I don't need - and don't want - to overclock damage, and glass cannons are out.

From what you said of your party, why not try maximizing your zone of control? Grab a reach weapon plus the trip feats plus combat reflexes. Tripping was nerfed in Pathfinder, grievously too, but because you have the Strength/Plant Blessing and Fervor you can stack bonuses pretty quickly. You can also grab a pretty respectable AC, too, especially if you grab a defending weapon and swift-cast Shield of Faith. You can sandbag your damage when necessary to ingratiate yourself to your buddies while still remaining effective and your schtick helps make the other party members look awesome. Your team is really going to regret not having a full-caster in the long run, but, with sufficient DM pity I'm sure you can find scrolls of restoration and break enchantment.