That's been a problem with PF since day one. The level 20 capstones are a joke, and should really come in somewhere between 6 and 9, depending on what they are. With killing joke coming in closer to 9, and even more better weapon specialization closer to 6.rasmuswagner wrote:PF design tenet: Core parts of your character's concept don't have to come in early, if they're things a Commoner couldn't do.
Unchained Summoner, Elemental subtype: If you want an elemental buddy, it gets Whirlwind/Vortex at level *20* (and fuck you Earth, you *never* gain Earth Glide).
Wildsoul (Arachnid) Vigilante: You are Spiderman. You can throw Tanglefoots bags - at level 6. You get a climb speed and the ability to shoot sticky rope - at level 12. You get "skyscraper flight" like Spiderman at level 18.
Pathfinder Is Still Bad
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- OgreBattle
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So Archtype let you swap out different class features for other class features, sometimes working as a multiclass of sorts like "Vivisectionist Alchemist replaces Rogue".
I want to ask "Is there a consistency to how they value different class features" but I know the answer is "lol no".
Instead I'll ask y'all what class features you figure are roughly equal to each other. Just limited to levels 1-8.
Like alchemy bombs being traded for every-2-levels sneak attack seems alright. Mutagens being traded for every-4-levels sneak attack is more vague.
I want to ask "Is there a consistency to how they value different class features" but I know the answer is "lol no".
Instead I'll ask y'all what class features you figure are roughly equal to each other. Just limited to levels 1-8.
Like alchemy bombs being traded for every-2-levels sneak attack seems alright. Mutagens being traded for every-4-levels sneak attack is more vague.
The reason class abilities balance differently than points sysytems like shadowrun is because abilities synergize. If you aren't going to be making any attack rolls that give SA, SA is literally worthless, it's why various loops to get Wizard 3/PrC 17 that have basically full Rogue SA progression along with full Wizard Progression are not broken at all, and are in fact underpowered because you gave up PrC features that could have helped you casting.
So there can't be a "fair trade off chart" because fundamentally SA is worth more to a character making attack rolls for damage than a Wizard, and kiting abilities are worth more to a Wizard than a melee combatant.
So there can't be a "fair trade off chart" because fundamentally SA is worth more to a character making attack rolls for damage than a Wizard, and kiting abilities are worth more to a Wizard than a melee combatant.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
- rasmuswagner
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And also, despite Kaelik being living proof that cancer can be transmitted through the internet, this post represents more knowledge and alytical thought than the entire PF core team is capable of.Kaelik wrote:The reason class abilities balance differently than points sysytems like shadowrun is because abilities synergize. If you aren't going to be making any attack rolls that give SA, SA is literally worthless, it's why various loops to get Wizard 3/PrC 17 that have basically full Rogue SA progression along with full Wizard Progression are not broken at all, and are in fact underpowered because you gave up PrC features that could have helped you casting.
So there can't be a "fair trade off chart" because fundamentally SA is worth more to a character making attack rolls for damage than a Wizard, and kiting abilities are worth more to a Wizard than a melee combatant.
Every time you play in a "low magic world" with D&D rules (or derivates), a unicorn steps on a kitten and an orphan drops his ice cream cone.
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The fundamental inability to fairly judge abilities against one another in a vacuum is a big reason why the Same Game Test happened. Your first aoe damage effect is a big deal, but your fourth aoe is basically meaningless. A bonus to attack or damage rolls is meaningful if and only if you have an attack that's good enough to use. And so on.
Your attacks and defenses matter as the sum of their parts. Not as individual parts.
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Your attacks and defenses matter as the sum of their parts. Not as individual parts.
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- Avoraciopoctules
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I tried building a couple kineticist characters for a friend's game. It was a painful experience. So many tedious special-snowflake rules for so little payoff.
An entirely new MP system coupled to unhealable nonlethal damage and a bunch of special switches and toggles for various resources. And what do you get? You throw a rock or an energy bolt. Maybe it explodes, or does a status effect. You get some passive bonuses for stabbing yourself before you start adventuring.
I guess it could be pretty decent for having low-end NPC "mage" mooks, but I am pretty frustrated that the rules for "you can throw a kinda level-appropriate energy blast" ended up at least five times more complicated and fiddly than necessary.
An entirely new MP system coupled to unhealable nonlethal damage and a bunch of special switches and toggles for various resources. And what do you get? You throw a rock or an energy bolt. Maybe it explodes, or does a status effect. You get some passive bonuses for stabbing yourself before you start adventuring.
I guess it could be pretty decent for having low-end NPC "mage" mooks, but I am pretty frustrated that the rules for "you can throw a kinda level-appropriate energy blast" ended up at least five times more complicated and fiddly than necessary.
Pretty much all the classes in Occult Adventures ended up more fiddly than necessary.
The simplest is the psychic, 'cause it's just a sorcerer with a few special snowflake abilities and new bloodlines. But the spell list (and particularly all the italics in it) pretty much gave me an aneurism. It was a list of shit from a half-dozen different books, and I had no desire to wade through them all to find the handful of things that actually work as solutions to common adventuring problems.
The medium can be fairly simple, too, but you have to have the insight that flipping between spirits to create effective builds isn't actually a thing it can do. You pretty much have to pick one thing to cheese out, and odds are other classes do that better. Though it is a useful thing to dip (with a feat tax) to gain an untyped bonus to all attack and damage rolls, which can be pretty useful if you're trying to force two weapon fighting to be viable despite every effort Paizo makes to kick you in the balls. But building something really useful is a huge hill to climb.
The simplest is the psychic, 'cause it's just a sorcerer with a few special snowflake abilities and new bloodlines. But the spell list (and particularly all the italics in it) pretty much gave me an aneurism. It was a list of shit from a half-dozen different books, and I had no desire to wade through them all to find the handful of things that actually work as solutions to common adventuring problems.
The medium can be fairly simple, too, but you have to have the insight that flipping between spirits to create effective builds isn't actually a thing it can do. You pretty much have to pick one thing to cheese out, and odds are other classes do that better. Though it is a useful thing to dip (with a feat tax) to gain an untyped bonus to all attack and damage rolls, which can be pretty useful if you're trying to force two weapon fighting to be viable despite every effort Paizo makes to kick you in the balls. But building something really useful is a huge hill to climb.
- Avoraciopoctules
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https://pathminder.github.io/base-class ... unchained/
This, on the other hand, might be cool. They take pathfinder's Unchained rogue variant and apply two archetypes to it, one from Paizo, one from Dreamscarred's second Tome of Battle hack. All of it's stuff you can find on D20PFSRD, but I wasn't willing to go to the trouble of making all the substitutions myself.
You get level 6 spellcasting, level 6 martial maneuvers, no stupid rogue tricks, and a sneak attack progression that is way more focused on debuffs than damage.
This, on the other hand, might be cool. They take pathfinder's Unchained rogue variant and apply two archetypes to it, one from Paizo, one from Dreamscarred's second Tome of Battle hack. All of it's stuff you can find on D20PFSRD, but I wasn't willing to go to the trouble of making all the substitutions myself.
You get level 6 spellcasting, level 6 martial maneuvers, no stupid rogue tricks, and a sneak attack progression that is way more focused on debuffs than damage.
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This is why it always hits me as really self-defeating when Shadowrun MCs get pissy about a player not taking a token number of points in skills that are largely voluntary in use. Nobody with any system savvy is going to start acting like they're Danny Ocean just because they bumped their Con pool from defaulting to 2 to rolling 4 and in fact that pool is still low enough that simple iterative probability will quickly defeat you if the MC starts asking for a ton of rolls just to prove a point. It's a situation where it's simply way less disruptive to hand out carrots to the characters that have good social skills instead of smashing the troll samurai with the biggest stick you can find.FrankTrollman wrote: A bonus to attack or damage rolls is meaningful if and only if you have an attack that's good enough to use. And so on.
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- OgreBattle
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That's a fun to look at class with lots of interesting moving parts. The gambit refresh to maneuvers is interesting but seems needlessly fiddly, it kinda feels like it's there so people go "Look it used a SKILL check, this is NOT WEEABANMAGIC"
How does it compare to a ninja or vivisectionist alchemist?
So rogue tricks+uncanny dodge+slower sneak attack= 6th level casting in Paizo logic...
How does it compare to a ninja or vivisectionist alchemist?
So rogue tricks+uncanny dodge+slower sneak attack= 6th level casting in Paizo logic...
Last edited by OgreBattle on Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Sir Aubergine
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Kudos... this is the first time I have ever wanted to play a rogue using the Pathfinder rules (albeit, there is not much rogue left in that Frankenstein's monster of a build ) !Avoraciopoctules wrote:https://pathminder.github.io/base-class ... unchained/
This, on the other hand, might be cool. They take pathfinder's Unchained rogue variant and apply two archetypes to it, one from Paizo, one from Dreamscarred's second Tome of Battle hack. All of it's stuff you can find on D20PFSRD, but I wasn't willing to go to the trouble of making all the substitutions myself.
You get level 6 spellcasting, level 6 martial maneuvers, no stupid rogue tricks, and a sneak attack progression that is way more focused on debuffs than damage.
The Denner’s Oath
The Denner, The Denner’s reflection: [in unison] A Denner is unhelpful, unfriendly and unkind.
The Denner’s reflection: With ungracious thoughts...
The Denner: ...in an unhealthy mind.
The Denner’s reflection: A Denner is uncheerful, uncouth and unclean. Now say this together!
The Denner, The Denner’s reflection: I'm frightfully mean! My eyes are both shifty. My fingers are thrifty.
The Denner: My mouth does not smile.
The Denner’s reflection: Not half of an inch.
The Denner: I'm a Denner.
The Denner’s reflection: I... am a Denner.
The Denner: I'm a Denner!
The Denner’s reflection: That's my boy. Now go out and prove it!
The Denner’s reflection: With ungracious thoughts...
The Denner: ...in an unhealthy mind.
The Denner’s reflection: A Denner is uncheerful, uncouth and unclean. Now say this together!
The Denner, The Denner’s reflection: I'm frightfully mean! My eyes are both shifty. My fingers are thrifty.
The Denner: My mouth does not smile.
The Denner’s reflection: Not half of an inch.
The Denner: I'm a Denner.
The Denner’s reflection: I... am a Denner.
The Denner: I'm a Denner!
The Denner’s reflection: That's my boy. Now go out and prove it!
It's third party. It's probably overpowered in paizo logic.OgreBattle wrote:That's a fun to look at class with lots of interesting moving parts. The gambit refresh to maneuvers is interesting but seems needlessly fiddly, it kinda feels like it's there so people go "Look it used a SKILL check, this is NOT WEEABANMAGIC"
How does it compare to a ninja or vivisectionist alchemist?
So rogue tricks+uncanny dodge+slower sneak attack= 6th level casting in Paizo logic...
Oh my fucking god: pathfailure detect evil dosen't detect evil. What manner of bullshittery is this?
-Kid Radd
shadzar wrote:those training harder get more, and training less, don't get the more.
Stuff I've MadeLokathor wrote:Anything worth sniffing can't be sniffed
- Avoraciopoctules
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The games I play in, they'll okay basically anything as long as it's in D20pfsrd. There's a surprising amount of 3rd-party stuff lurking there, sometimes almost completely unlabeled.Voss wrote:It's third party. It's probably overpowered in paizo logic.OgreBattle wrote:That's a fun to look at class with lots of interesting moving parts. The gambit refresh to maneuvers is interesting but seems needlessly fiddly, it kinda feels like it's there so people go "Look it used a SKILL check, this is NOT WEEABANMAGIC"
How does it compare to a ninja or vivisectionist alchemist?
So rogue tricks+uncanny dodge+slower sneak attack= 6th level casting in Paizo logic...
For instance, I think the Wyvaran metamagic favored class bonus that can combine with the metamagic discount traits for free Quicken at level 8 is from something 3rd-party. And maybe the racial option that lets Human Wizards get +10 or +12 to all skills due to poor wording.
Is this about the fact it doesn't give an aura to evil creatures of 4HD or less or something?Hicks wrote:Oh my fucking god: pathfailure detect evil dosen't detect evil. What manner of bullshittery is this?
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
Given that website is independent of paizo, and advertises those 3rd party books, and offers to publishes whatever shit people send them... it isn't surprising at all. Especially as it's also a storefront. And has a patreon.Avoraciopoctules wrote:The games I play in, they'll okay basically anything as long as it's in D20pfsrd. There's a surprising amount of 3rd-party stuff lurking there, sometimes almost completely unlabeled.Voss wrote:It's third party. It's probably overpowered in paizo logic.OgreBattle wrote:That's a fun to look at class with lots of interesting moving parts. The gambit refresh to maneuvers is interesting but seems needlessly fiddly, it kinda feels like it's there so people go "Look it used a SKILL check, this is NOT WEEABANMAGIC"
How does it compare to a ninja or vivisectionist alchemist?
So rogue tricks+uncanny dodge+slower sneak attack= 6th level casting in Paizo logic...
Whether or not it gets used in the set of 'games you play in' still doesn't say anything about Paizo or PF.
You're going to have to explain or provide links.Oh my fucking god: pathfailure detect evil dosen't detect evil. What manner of bullshittery is this?
Do you mean that evil things that aren't undead, clerics or outsiders and are less than level 4 don't show up (or spells items with a Caster Level less than 5)? Does it matter?
Because that's the only major change from the 3.5 version I see.
I'm kinda comfortable not playing 'j'accuse' with every greedy merchant or goblin the party trips over.
Last edited by Voss on Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
Yes, any evil creature under 5hd that is not undead, an outsider, or a Cleric isn't pinged by the paladin's evil-dar, which includes Vampiric mist, ettercaps, werewolfs/rats/others, ogres, and of course basically every npc Mook ever (road bandits, guild theives, pirate crews, and... fuck it just goes on).
-Kid Radd
shadzar wrote:those training harder get more, and training less, don't get the more.
Stuff I've MadeLokathor wrote:Anything worth sniffing can't be sniffed
- Count Arioch the 28th
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On a side note, fuck that guy. I left a negative review on his website after a disappointing purchase and he started flipping shit and sending nastygrams to my e-mail inbox. No attempt at customer service, just a rant about how terrible I was to give him a negative review. Probably my fault for wanting to support his website, lesson learned.Voss wrote: Given that website is independent of paizo, and advertises those 3rd party books, and offers to publishes whatever shit people send them... it isn't surprising at all. Especially as it's also a storefront. And has a patreon.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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I assume it has to be a complete product, like a PDF that is sold on the Paizo store. Note that selling a PDF in the Paizo store is not a very high bar to reach.OgreBattle wrote:So if you just write a 20 level class they'll possibly host in on their site? Or does it have to be a complete pdf kinda thing
I was considering letting the players touch Paizo's attempt at arena combat, which honestly looks like the author had intended for the rules to be a set of rules for public speaking and decided to kitbash them into thinking it can recreate The Gladiator. Bonuses are fairly restricted, ranging from +0 to +12 for the near-epic gladiator, and encourage attempting to draw out the combat so you can get more chances to make a Performance check. Victory conditions for the combat vs performance aren't really correlated that well, which isn't the most intuitive situation. To top it off, if you & your two friends are thrown into the Colosseum to fight a Bloodwyrm, the crowd is likely going to hate you whether you win or lose.
Side note: the collective Perception skill of an audience of 300+ people is off the RNG of any single member, and even a crowd of schmuck commoners can readily track invisible combatants.
Side note: the collective Perception skill of an audience of 300+ people is off the RNG of any single member, and even a crowd of schmuck commoners can readily track invisible combatants.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
Got the print version of Red Dawn up on DTRPG now. With a $2 discount, even. Came out pretty nice, but I can't say I'm impressed with the paper in their "premium colour" grade. Still, it looks slick as hell.
On sale now.
On sale now.
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The FAQ on the mounted charge is pretty stupid as well => if your mount charges, the rider is charging too, so he can't spur his mount (wtf?!), use his bow, cast a spell, etc.OgreBattle wrote:What're their worst errata decisions?
And my favorite:
"casting a spell or SLA is obvious even without component and physical manifestation because bad-wrong-fun"... but if you purchase the new splatbook we just released, you can totally do it and it will be cool.
Last edited by djelai on Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Avoraciopoctules
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How many hit points should a +5 cloak of resistance have? It looks pretty likely that a wizard's getting sundered next game, and the numbers I'm getting are pretty ridiculous. Weapons and armor add +10 HP per point of enhancement, but 52 HP seems ridiculously high for a cloak. Then again, 1 or 2 HP and Hardness 0 means that your cloak's getting shredded super-easily.
I guess in Pathfinder, you can just cast Make Whole and get it back next round, so maybe I should assume that tertiary gear is mostly easy to break.
I guess in Pathfinder, you can just cast Make Whole and get it back next round, so maybe I should assume that tertiary gear is mostly easy to break.
Make whole has a casting time of 10 minutes and only repairs magic items with a CL that's half yours or less. You could do it between fights at 10th level or higher, but I can't imagine the hassle of trading shots at each other's clothing at the start of every fight is going to make your game more fun.