[3.5] Dread Necromancer, but then what?

[fectin]

Long time listener, first time caller.

Some basic background: I'm in a campaign that's semi-rebooting after TPK (Gorgon in a library). "Semi" because some characters are sticking around, others are new, and the continuity isn't clear yet. The first try was a lawful good party, but like clockwork, the first thing the newest player said after dying was "lets go all out evil this time." What the heck, that's fun sometimes, why not? Admittedly, I was also still a bit irked that Control Undead is irredeemably tainting (who knew!), so demonstrating the difference between dominating a zombie and mustache twirling eeeeevil did make me slightly more eager to support for this idea. Before, I deliberately pessimized my character (sorcerer based on summoning and charm), because most of the players were new. Now though, I don't mind building at least average. I'm not trying to prove anything, just a little more motivated to show support for Team Undead than I might be otherwise.

So, now I'm looking at building a Dread Necromancer, and trying to figure out what to do after level 8. I'm not looking for balls-to-the-wall optimizing, just trying to avoid blowing chunks. Sticking with the base class all the way up is about right for the power level, but it kind of lacks pizzazz.

I'm smart enough to use Google, and already dumpster dove through a bunch of the books, without anything obvious popping out. Everything was either essentially unenterable (Walker in the Wastes requires continuous interaction with a plot element that just isn't in this world), or had serious drawbacks (Pale Master - spend a whole level to get +2 will save? Someone hold me back!).

The world is custom, and all the short races got messed with, mostly detrimentally. Thematically, it would be neat to stick with the same sort of edited Dwarf as before (+2 CON, -2 DEX, +2 CHA, other bits that don't matter, shaped like Fat Albert), but if I'm missing something obvious there, please point it out.

The best approaches I've come up with yet are:
- Stick with Dread Necromancer the whole way. Not terrible, but the shiny toys stop coming after level 8.
- Suck it up and go Pale Master anyway after DN 8. Character level 9 is a waste; but at least it's a feat level.
- DN 8/Cleric 3/True Necromancer until it gets old (I know, I know, but I thought DN might synchronize better with Cleric than Wizard does, and I don't have to compete with real wizards in this particular campaign).
- DN 8/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge until it gets old (Not for Ur-Priest cheese, just to minimize how far off the caster level train I fall).

Dipping two levels of chameleon did look very powerful here, but also seemed way to cheesy.

Yes, I read K's necromancer handbook from a while back (repeatedly). Yes, Tomb Tainted Soul is feat numero uno.

So overall, three questions, for anyone who has an opinion:
- Does True Necromancer ever not suck (or at least, suck less)?
- Is there an alternate/easier route to qualifying for a PrC which advances both divine and Dread Necromancer casting?
- Thoughts/advice/comments? (Parentheticals?)

[Maxus]

-No

-Questions B and C can be combined. Try the Tome of Necromancy. There's some divine PrCs there. Run some of the ideas by the DM.

Tome of Necromancy: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=34248

[fectin]

Too bad. It really seemed like that combination might be better. Is Mystic Theurge ever workable either?

Unfortunately, it isn't a Tome game, and isn't going to become one. The Frank and K stuff is stellar for flavor, balance, and ease (I ran a spelljammer game with their rules a couple years ago, and that might well have been my favorite table. Two great tastes, etc.) but this particular game is unlikely to move away from RAW.

Thank you though, that was a good idea. I just should have been clearer to start with.

[Username17]

For actual RAW play, we did a set of Necromancy discussions called The Revised Necromancer Handbook.

They published a couple things of interest after that, the handbook doesn't mention anything in Complete Mage, for example. But honestly, even that material is pretty thin on the ground.

-Username17

[schpeelah]

According to the New Dread Necro Handbook your options are:

Tainted Scholar (HoH), (very overpowered)
Incantatrix (PGtF), because we like lots of free metamagic
Shadow Adept (PGtF), mostly 2 level dip, but can be argued to be taken in its entirety
Unseen Seer (CM), (2 level dip)
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (CArc), makes you tougher
Wearer or Purple (FR:FaP), assorted benefits for a spellcaster
Archmage
Lord of the Dead, generic undead necromancer

[RobbyPants]

I'm running a DN now in a solo game and just hit 8th level. I'm planning on taking Divine Oracle just because it's so easy to qualify for, and because several of those divinations are handy.

I mean, really, as long as you're getting caster levels, some sort of features, and the prereqs aren't too steep, you can pick about anything and it will be a better choice than DN 9.

[JonSetanta]

Necro? I never touch the stuff.


EDIT: And another thing; why isn't Animate Dead a Level 1 spell?
The HD control limit is 2xlevel, making a single zombie or two skeletons at caster level 1 hardly a threat to appropriate encounters. A single Turn Undead could demolish that "army".

I gave Animate Dead as an SLA to a fiend class I wrote recently (Dark Lawyer) but I have yet to see reason why it would be broken so soon.

[Username17]

The Hit Die Limit is four per level. An Ogre Skeleton at level 1 is better than half the party. But in any case, even two skeletons (what you get from a single casting of Animate Dead at 1st level without access to a Desecrate) is still roughly as good as a whole character.

Animate Dead isn't 1st level because at low levels it would be insanely good. It's only later on when it really comes home to roost how skeletons and zombies don't keep up with monsters and characters of your level that the spell becomes only very good.

But yeah, Clerics getting Animate Dead at fifth level is damn near broken. Even with a gp cost.

-Username17

[fectin]

My bad Frank. I've never seen you credited for that handbook; it was an honest mistake. I read and reread that guide (different site, so different discussion, but identical front matter), but didn't see a good option out of DN.

Schpeelah, that was exactly what I was looking for. I think Incantator is the right option, but that list is gold.

Sigma, is it because a wizard might be able to solo a cat if that were true? Also, couldn't you create a plausible tiny undead army out of mundane animals? E.g. 8 cat skeletons, cost of 100gp.

[Quantumboost]

Too bad. It really seemed like that combination might be better. Is Mystic Theurge ever workable either?

Official dual-caster prestige classes are effectively never workable. Your highest-level spells are your best spells, and taking Mystic Theurge or anything similar means that you're giving up 1.5 on average off your maximum spell level - and you're already half a level behind as a Sorcerer-style caster. It's just too much sacrifice for what you're getting (a few extra slots to cast spells that aren't as good as what you're giving up).

If you *really* want to get non-Dread Necromancer spells on your spell list, you should either (a) try to get Tome of Fiends approved and grab Attuned Domains or Spheres or (b) take Arcane Disciple from Complete Divine (strictly worse than Attune Domain, since it also requires Wisdom, but easier to get approved). Each of those feats adds another spell for each spell level, most of which will be things you want since you actually picked the domain/sphere in question.

Alternatively, get Tome of Necromancy approved and

PrC-wise, I have to agree with others that there's some *really* good stuff in Tome of Necromancy. Otherwise, things like Mindbender 1 and any other full-casting PrCs will suffice.

[Echoes]

take Arcane Disciple from Complete Divine (strictly worse than Attune Domain, since it also requires Wisdom, but easier to get approved). Each of those feats adds another spell for each spell level, most of which will be things you want since you actually picked the domain/sphere in question.

This. Arcane Disciple is gold on the full-list casters (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage), because the feat adds spells to your spell list, but not your spells known normally. However, since you know your entire spell list and can spontaneously cast off of it, anything that says "add X to your spell list" is made of win and awesome.

As for PrCs, are you wanting to continue progressing rebuke? If so, paragnostic apostle (CChamp, 5 levels long) isn't bad. Pathetically easy requirements, full spellcasting, advances turn/rebuke, and you get to pick from a list of OK abilities at each level. After that Bone Knight (faiths of eberron) is probably your best bet. It's 9/10 casting, advances rebuking and gives you some interesting abilities. Outside of other settings, Sacred Exorcist is pretty much your only other option assuming you can qualify.

[JonSetanta]

The Hit Die Limit is four per level. An Ogre Skeleton at level 1 is better than half the party. But in any case, even two skeletons (what you get from a single casting of Animate Dead at 1st level without access to a Desecrate) is still roughly as good as a whole character.

Animate Dead isn't 1st level because at low levels it would be insanely good. It's only later on when it really comes home to roost how skeletons and zombies don't keep up with monsters and characters of your level that the spell becomes only very good.

But yeah, Clerics getting Animate Dead at fifth level is damn near broken. Even with a gp cost.

-Username17

Well pardon me.

[Username17]

Divine Oracle, Fiend Blooded, Wild Mage, Thaumaturgist, whatever. Literally any caster PrC is going to be better than taking the next 11 levels of Dread Necromancer, so it doesn't fucking matter. The issue is that you're apparently 8th level already, so it's too late to get your feats in order to take the class of your dreams. I'm guessing you didn't take Spell Focus: Conjuration and Arcane Disciple: Summoner Domain as two of your feats so that you could take Thaumaturgist and get your Planar Cohort in a few levels. I mean shit, you probably didn't even take Skill Focus: Knowledge: Religion so that you could take Divine Oracle and later branch out into Lore Master.

8th level is kind of too late to be planning your 9th level PrC unless the DM lets you select your 9th level feat before selecting your class. And honestly, even then.

-Username17

[ubernoob]

Divine Oracle, Fiend Blooded, Wild Mage, Thaumaturgist, whatever. Literally any caster PrC is going to be better than taking the next 11 levels of Dread Necromancer, so it doesn't fucking matter. The issue is that you're apparently 8th level already, so it's too late to get your feats in order to take the class of your dreams. I'm guessing you didn't take Spell Focus: Conjuration and Arcane Disciple: Summoner Domain as two of your feats so that you could take Thaumaturgist and get your Planar Cohort in a few levels. I mean shit, you probably didn't even take Skill Focus: Knowledge: Religion so that you could take Divine Oracle and later branch out into Lore Master.

8th level is kind of too late to be planning your 9th level PrC unless the DM lets you select your 9th level feat before selecting your class. And honestly, even then.

-Username17

Actually, I think we're fine on that front:

So, now I'm looking at building a Dread Necromancer, and trying to figure out what to do after level 8. I'm not looking for balls-to-the-wall optimizing, just trying to avoid blowing chunks. Sticking with the base class all the way up is about right for the power level, but it kind of lacks pizzazz.

Seems the character is not in play yet.

My personal advice is to stick to things that give you domains, pickable spells, or literally any other way to expand your spell list while giving full casting. Fiend blooded is hands down the best for this. While divine oracle is fine for one or two levels, if you really want foresight you can get it via arcane disciple on other domains (unless you really want the utility spells on there). For DCs, fatespinner is the shit and four levels of it will grant you the ability to boost a DC by 4 and then force the person to reroll their save if they pass the increased DC. Unseen seer is alright if you want to dip 2 levels late in life to pick up something silly like divine insight onto your list.

But really, take fiendblooded and spend feats on arcane disciple to cherrypick some good domain spells. Dread Necromancer 8/Fiendblooded 9 takes you to level 17, which is the highest you'll probably see anyways.

[RobbyPants]

Good call on Fiendblooded. I'd forgotten about that one, and it was high on my list to pick for a while. The only reason I avoided it was for flavor reason and not mechanical reasons. It's a solid 9-level class. Fate Spinner is also a good 4 level class once you set some ranks on fire for Profession (Gambler).

I haven't looked at Loremaster in a long time. How many levels do you suggest taking of Divine Oracle before branching out again?

[Username17]

Loremaster is weird. You have to set one feat on fire to get in (Skill Focus: Knowledge), but you had to set that same feat on exactly the same fire for Divine Oracle. You also require 3 metamagic or item creation feats, which if your DM believes in Sudden Extend and allows downtime for Craft Wondrous, that's not even an imposition. And yet, it's still 4 total feats that are not Tomb Tainted Soul. If you aren't a human, you'll have that at 12th level. Which is coincidentally the level you get the last passably decent thing from Divine Oracle (Uncanny Dodge). Taking a 5th level of Divine Oracle for a +1 to saves against Traps is totally not on the table. But if you're Human or using Flaws or touchstones or something and you can get the bonus feats early, then jetting out of Divine Oracle after the first level into Loremaster makes a fair amount of sense. An Arcane Caster with unlimited self healing really doesn't care about Evasion (although the level 3 and 4 abilities are pretty good).

-Username17

[RobbyPants]

That's kind of how I felt. I figured 1st level gives me the domain; it's not like I need to keep taking levels to get the higher level spells or anything. Evasion is cute, but not great.

That being said, I'll get a feat at level 9 (Divine Oracle 1), which I can use to nearly qualify for Thaumaturgist (I'll need to be level 10 to cast Lesser Planar Ally). That class looks good for both flavor and mechanics. I may jump into that at level 11.

[Username17]

That's kind of how I felt. I figured 1st level gives me the domain; it's not like I need to keep taking levels to get the higher level spells or anything. Evasion is cute, but not great.

That being said, I'll get a feat at level 9 (Divine Oracle 1), which I can use to nearly qualify for Thaumaturgist (I'll need to be level 10 to cast Lesser Planar Ally). That class looks good for both flavor and mechanics. I may jump into that at level 11.

If you're going Thaumaturgist, you need to set two feats on fire: one for Spell Focus: Conjuration and another for Arcane Disciple: Summoner Domain. But it comes online as soon as you can cast 4th level spells, which you should be able to do at 8th level. It doesn't take any skills at all, so if you pulled bullshit with getting lesser planar binding early by any of a number of means, you could take the class early. Not that you want to, because Dread Necromancer 8 is sweet. But if you wanted to take it right after (or right before) a level of Divine Oracle, that's totally reasonable.

Thaumaturgist itself is a weird class, and the first level ability seems to have been written by someone who has no fucking idea what the fuck they are talking about. Here's what it does: If you call a creature with at least one alignment in common with your own, you can make a Diplomacy check, and if your check is high enough that the creature would be Helpful, you can get your Planar Ally working for "half price". What's wrong with that? Well, you don't choose the planar ally, your alignment does. It literally always shares an alignment with you. Always. Secondly, it's not Planar Binding, and the creature it on your side to begin with. It is already Helpful. The DC to get that to go off is one. Literally, the number one. There is no number you can roll on the die that is low enough to not make that DC. This is confirmed right in the example where they state that a 15 is enough to make the DC, when the lowest DC on the chart that isn't the solitary number one is twenty. So there's no other possibility than that you are seriously making a Diplomacy test to make a Helpful Creature Helpful, for which any positive number will do. But finally, no one ever pays money for Planar Allies in any case. Everyone does quest trades for those things, what the fuck is "half" a quest?

But yeah, Augment Summoning, Extended Summoning, and Contingent Summoning are all fucking metal. The Planar Cohort is awesome, unless you actually have Leadership in which case it ass rapes you. It's weird that way.

-Username17

[Koumei]

Everyone does quest trades for those things, what the fuck is "half" a quest?

"Bring me back the stolen hammer of Nyang-Buk-Ting."

You go over to where it is, kill the final boss, and get your photo taken with the hammer for proof, then go back without actually fetching it. Or you do indeed take it, you just keep it.

If it's "slay Bill the (Opposed Outsider) Lord", then you just go rough him up a bit. If they ask for a genocide, you perform a carefully planned out cull that thins the numbers to a sustainable level.

[JonSetanta]

So... a half-assed job. Great.

[fectin]

Everyone does quest trades for those things, what the fuck is "half" a quest?

"Bring me back the stolen hammer of Nyang-Buk-Ting."

You go over to where it is, kill the final boss, and get your photo taken with the hammer for proof, then go back without actually fetching it. Or you do indeed take it, you just keep it.

If it's "slay Bill the (Opposed Outsider) Lord", then you just go rough him up a bit. If they ask for a genocide, you perform a carefully planned out cull that thins the numbers to a sustainable level.

So basically, replace "waste your time on a quest" with "waste your time on surrealism"? That actually sounds pretty spiffy, much more so than Frank's giving it credit for. Clearly not the intent, but who cares?
Not that it's really necessary to take a class just to inject surrealism into a game, but excuses are nice.

Separately, it occured to me that Uttercold Assault and the Locate City bomb are probably terribly synergistic. Not planning on going that way, just musing.

[Username17]

The reason you always take the Quest Trade on Planar Ally is because you are a D&D character. You'll be going on some quest anyway. And Planar Ally always comes from supernatural creatures that you support and who support you, so the quests they send you on that advance their interests also advance yours.

So the "Drawback" of the spell is that the DM has to give you a quest that is relevant to your character's interests.

-Username17

[fectin]

That's not entirely true. Just because you and he each dedicated yourselves to the visions and goals of Spaceasaurus Rex, doesn't mean your interests align. You may be all about contemplation, and prefer hunting tiny kobolds; your ally may prefer evangelism, and ask you to cruise around, looking for new lands to roam and new peoples to devour. Or something. The analogy broke down when I tried to figure out what goals a space dinosaur would have.

Consider a devil, "corrupt mortals" and "serve in the blood war" instead.

Also, you're always doing some quest, bit sometimes you like the one you're on already, and don't want to take the time to retrieve the unholy toenail clippings of Vecna, you just want to buy create undead (or whatever) from a vending machine and move on.

Also, most DMs I've played with seem compelled to make outsiders and allies arbitrarily all be dicks.

[Echoes]

That's not entirely true. Just because you and he each dedicated yourselves to the visions and goals of Spaceasaurus Rex, doesn't mean your interests align. You may be all about contemplation, and prefer hunting tiny kobolds; your ally may prefer evangelism, and ask you to cruise around, looking for new lands to roam and new peoples to devour. Or something. The analogy broke down when I tried to figure out what goals a space dinosaur would have.

Consider a devil, "corrupt mortals" and "serve in the blood war" instead.

Also, you're always doing some quest, bit sometimes you like the one you're on already, and don't want to take the time to retrieve the unholy toenail clippings of Vecna, you just want to buy create undead (or whatever) from a vending machine and move on.

Also, most DMs I've played with seem compelled to make outsiders and allies arbitrarily all be dicks.

Planar ally doesn't just grab a random like-aligned creature (unless you don't follow a god at all). You are literally dialing up your god and going "Yo, need some backup down here", so whatever creature you get is automatically and specifically there to help you do whatever it is you're doing (assuming your current endeavors are in line with what your god wants in the first place).

They impose a "cost" to prevent clerics from spamming the Call Nurse button all the time for trivial bullshit.

If you don't follow a god, then you're right. You get whatever outsider that matches your philosophical alignment that feels like answering your call. Although, in that case, if they're willing to answer the call they're probably already cool with whatever it is you want help with.