The reason why fighters will never have nice things.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:08 am

what powers does castlevania give the character

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:16 am

I (perhaps not very clearly) defined a castlevania hero as a character who gets most of their power from looted magic items.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:20 am

right but give me some examples

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:33 am

Well, let's see; the most recent castlevania game I played was Order of Ecclesia, and in that game the stuff you can collect falls into four categories:
* Glyphs, which are basically spells, although you don't get anything that I would really consider a high-level spell, because Castlevania isn't really a high level adventure.
* Relics, which give you superpowers like breathing underwater or double-jumping, or whatever (Ecclesia has a relatively low number of these items for a castlevania game, but the best one is usually something that gives you infinite mid-air jumps).
* Equipment, which usually just improves your stats, but some actually do cool things like make you invulnerable while backdashing, or let you detect treasure, or make you immune to a status condition.
* Usable items, a category which includes healing potions, mana potions, food (which heals you), and quest items.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:28 am

And this thread inspires another PrC, the Blood Knight.

Tell me what you think.

LR · Post by LR » Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:59 pm

RadiantPhoenix wrote:Well, let's see; the most recent castlevania game I played was Order of Ecclesia

Harmony of Despair is the latest game and focuses on collecting magical loot. "Castlevania Hero" might not be the best term, though. The Belmonts rarely deal with equipment other than the Vampire Killer and subweapons.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:31 pm

Gathering new pieces of equipment as you go is a staple of the Metroidvania genre. I also like the idea of making a class that gets more effect than normal from magic items.

Ravengm · Post by **Ravengm** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:37 pm

Or the ability to combine them in interesting ways.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:00 am

I'm sorry to be this guy, but I just had to mention; Superman VS The Hulk

How is this even a question?

I seriously want to know. How is this a thing that anyone has ever wondered ever?

Superman can fly and move faster than sight can perceive.

He can, in the first instant of the fight basically teleport at the Hulk and throw him into space. I'm not even arguing the "Throw the hulk into the sun" thing that everyone suggests (because it's a pretty good suggestion) I'm even going to assume that somehow the hulk could survive an eternity of being burned alive by the sun. I'm just talking that Supe would THROW him into SPACE. Do you know how much space there is in space? Throw him anywhere. You will be all set for eternity. If you really wanted you could throw him into space, check with some Astronomers for what the farthest star was and then fly back out to space and tap him in that direction. Once again doing all of this faster than the Hulk could literally even perceive. Hulk VS Superman is not a fight, it is a brief interlude in Superman's morning. Seriously, someone tell me how this is something that people ask, I don't understand

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:43 am

personally I like magneto vs. hulk

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:49 am

deanruel87, careful now! Don't start applying Newtonian physics to superheroes throwing other superheroes. The writers sure don't. While it's true Superman could throw something of Hulk's equivalent weight into space (and has, I'm sure), the fact that hulk is another ridiculously impossible entity makes it different for some reason. Fuck Newton, what does he know?

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:00 am

Dean, you have successfully illustrated why Superman's levels of power fluctuate wildly over the course of the comics. Nothing is a threat to him at that level of power, so he's regularly brought down a few notches and then brought back up again when the writers get lazy or bored.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:45 pm

Chamomile wrote:Gathering new pieces of equipment as you go is a staple of the Metroidvania genre. I also like the idea of making a class that gets more effect than normal from magic items.

Ravengm wrote:Or the ability to combine them in interesting ways.

I found it funny that you were waxing nostalgic about the latter half of the prime examples of the Metroidvania genre, since the first half of the equation has a heroine who is almost functionally identical to Iron Man and would fulfill your requirements; she just finds her stuff mid-mission rather than working it out in her lab.

What I'm trying to say is that the archetype you're looking for already exists. It already exists in D&D, too. It's called an artificer and I don't know why you insist on clogging the game up with redundant archetypes unless the aim is to pad out third-tier splatbooks.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:27 pm

An Artificer does not get more use out of the same magic items as other classes. An Artificer makes magic items. It is an entirely separate thing.

Also, we have again come to the point where you are whining about how our solution for your problem doesn't count because that solution already exists, which raises the question as to why you've gone off whining about the problem in the first place when it isn't one.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:37 pm

Chamomile wrote:An Artificer does not get more use out of the same magic items as other classes. An Artificer makes magic items. It is an entirely separate thing.

And just what is the difference? The Artificer can (presumably) create magical items that no one else can use except them. They can do shit like have custom-made magical armor that gives them flight that only they can control or have mind-control eyes built into the helmet that only they know how to operate. How is this in any way different from the DMF in terms of gameplay except in a piddling, hair-splitting way?

Chamomile wrote: Also, we have again come to the point where you are whining about how our solution for your problem doesn't count because that solution already exists, which raises the question as to why you've gone off whining about the problem in the first place when it isn't one.

Okay, imagine you have two characters, Samus Aran and Tony Stark. Both of these characters are famous for having a suit of power armor which allows them to kick ass. The major difference is that while Samus finds her equipment (this isn't really fair to her since she does know how to build shit, it's just a limitation of gameplay, but whatever) Tony Stark builds it.

While no one would object to Tony Stark using his genius to build a factory that spits out miniature fighter jets or building an interstellar space ship or even building a nanomachine vat that cures people of zombie plague, people would balk at Samus doing the same thing. Even if Samus and Tony gains levels side-by-side and it's established that she's really smart (or even smarter, since she got the bad touch by Chozos), Samus is never going to be allowed to add schticks that don't directly add to her personal melee combat ability. This is a real problem for D&D, since that game does not support 'can fight overall better in combat than your peers' unless you're a higher level. Even if D&D did support this, the problem is that Samus's schticks become increasingly irrelevant at higher levels, which is the same problem all Metroidvania heroes have. They operate in an extremely narrow range of gameplay and have a narrow range of solutions. Unless she has a MacGuffin or is being schtupped by a non-gameplay cutscene, all she can do is fight.

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:21 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote: While no one would object to Tony Stark using his genius to build a factory that spits out miniature fighter jets or building an interstellar space ship or even building a nanomachine vat that cures people of zombie plague, people would balk at Samus doing the same thing. Even if Samus and Tony gains levels side-by-side and it's established that she's really smart (or even smarter, since she got the bad touch by Chozos), Samus is never going to be allowed to add schticks that don't directly add to her personal melee combat ability. This is a real problem for D&D, since that game does not support 'can fight overall better in combat than your peers' unless you're a higher level. Even if D&D did support this, the problem is that Samus's schticks become increasingly irrelevant at higher levels, which is the same problem all Metroidvania heroes have. They operate in an extremely narrow range of gameplay and have a narrow range of solutions. Unless she has a MacGuffin or is being schtupped by a non-gameplay cutscene, all she can do is fight.

Uh.... yeah given Samus is a character from an action video game, of course her known abilities are going to be geared towards that role. You could say the same for Silver Surfer in all his video game appearances too, and yet he can obviously do more than fight.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:31 pm

So "science" is a schtick [like magic is] and she's not allowed to partake of it? Why is this so?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:09 pm

Because Lago says she can't. He routinely rails about this nameless, faceless group of grognards who can't imagine a game without a True Scotsman Fighter.

It doesn't matter what you say, because he will invoke that group's response for them. Give the fighter magic tools to do more than stab, Metroidvania style? It's not a fighter any more and they want a fighter in the game! Give the fighter themed magic of his own, creating a fighter-mage? It's just a wizard with a sword, not a fighter, and they want a fighter! Give the fighter internal awesomeness, Munchausen style? They're racist and hate Japan and will call that anime-weeaboo! Make a game where the power-level of the system caps out just before the mundane fighter loses value? They want their game to extend to infinity and beyond!

I don't know why we keep arguing for and catering to these people, especially since they're not really present here and it feels like it's Lago's opinion because he brings them up all the time.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:13 pm

pretty sure that you can give a fighter a magic fire sword and people will be okay with him shooting fire from it

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:30 pm

Because Fighter's can't have nice things.
If it's not a Fighter whose awesomeness comes from his skill, and that matches up with Earth Physics, then he's not a REAL fighter.

They want a Fighter who could exist in the real world to match up with a Wizard who gets to cast Wish.

violence in the media · Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:37 pm

sabs wrote:Because Fighter's can't have nice things.
If it's not a Fighter whose awesomeness comes from his skill, and that matches up with Earth Physics, then he's not a REAL fighter.

They want a Fighter who could exist in the real world to match up with a Wizard who gets to cast Wish.

This is absolutely true. Some of the guys I personally game with (who are in their 40s or 50s) scoff at the idea that any character could do something as comparatively low-powered as make a 30' running jump in full armor.

I'm trying to change this attitude, but it's slow going. I have no problem envisioning Lago's hypothetical grognards--they're in my group.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:42 pm

MGuy wrote:So "science" is a schtick [like magic is] and she's not allowed to partake of it? Why is this so?

virgil wrote:Give the fighter magic tools to do more than stab, Metroidvania style? It's not a fighter any more and they want a fighter in the game!

There's no reason why she can't, it's just that people who want to emulate her character either have to deviate from what she's been shown on-screen to do or be stuck with a character who's only good at close-range fighting.

You may as well ask 'even though Spider-Man is a genius scientist/engineer, within shooting distance of Tony Stark/Mr. Fantastic, why doesn't he build more gadgets?' The answer is seriously 'because we have ideas of what we want Spider-Man to do and using a Spider-Taser and Spider-Jetpack doesn't fit them. He can research genetic cures and build web-shooters just fine though.' Acting like there isn't some arbitrary metafictional force holding him back from making a Spider-Utility Belt is just being facetious. Which is fine for a comic, but not for an open-ended game.

I suppose it's possible in theory to have a Collect-A-Thon hero and have it be balanced with people who gain credible non-combat schticks but I'm not holding my breath. You have very few examples from fiction to draw from to support this. I mean, seriously, Batman? King Arthur? Soma? Just look at this goddamn thread. The Hulk crap is exactly why I think that people are pissing in the wind with this, because if we actually went through with this I'm almost positive that people would fall into the trap of giving the DMF cum Collect-A-Thon hero nothing but combat-enhancing schticks; because people are in denial about that archetype falling to the wayside and want to have the illusion of the character still being credible. K said it himself; people won't accept an Anime Fighter but will accept a Fighter-but-not-Really schtick that obfuscates the fact that he's not a fighter anymore. Because of this illusion people keep adding non-helpful schticks even when they're aware of the underlying problem, which makes people feel like they're solving the problem of fighters not having nice things but doesn't. Just look at all of the Tome melee classes if you still don't believe me.

And even if you could conquer all of that stuff, there's still the underlying problem of the 'this character can use magical items in a way other people can't' is a completely redundant archetype. The artificer already does that shit. The artificer can use rocks in a way people can't. The DMF only seems different because you repackaged and duplicated the artificer with a weakness of 'can't make his own shit' and you arbitrarily made a distinction of 'upgrading swords with your brainpower and science' and 'upgrading swords with your inner moxie'. You know what else you could've done while you're at it? You can make a Fire Mage class and a Flame Mage class, with the difference being that the Fire Mage can't use Wall of Fire or Summon Fire Elemental. Unless you're trying to pad books, there's no reason why you would do that.

Ravengm · Post by **Ravengm** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:05 pm

I get that the Artificer can use items differently, but I don't think it goes far enough. You can make your own items, and make them a little better than they would be otherwise, but aside from just playing Mad Scientist during downtime, the feel isn't really there for me. I mean, the difference between crafting items and buying them when you have access to a Mage Mart is minimal, and just buying them is faster "so the party can get back to killing stuff, dammit".

Uniqueness and a wealth of usable options are what sells a character for me (both in personality and in actual mechanics). The Artificer kind of falls short in both categories, since the same idea can be duplicated with a Wizard that takes some crafting feats. Obviously it's not exactly the same, but you can more or less make a character with similar goals and sets of abilities without ever touching the Artificer.

Putting [Artificer only] tags on items is insulting to the other players, and even to the Artificer, and is a bad idea. I think the ability to combine items goes a step in the right direction. For example, take a shield and spot-weld a broadsword or something to it, and then you're able to make skewering charge attacks. Or lashing a spear to a 10-foot pole and increasing your reach. Being able to grab random loot and turn it into something useful temporarily and quickly would both make the Artificer feel different and give you a use for the vendor trash before you head back to town to sell it.

And then you have the Gadgeteer to take the Fighter's place.

Edit: Forgot the important part.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:10 pm

So I'm a bit confused as to what this conversation is even about. I've said it before that a "fighter" only means something when you attribute a definition to it. Your definition of "fighter" for this discussion seems to specifically be " someone who can only fight" then you go on to make the assertion that fighters can't do anything else and if they are then they aren't a fighter. This of course holds true because you specifically define "fighter" as that. So what is the actual point of this conversation? What is this discussion about?

Ravengm · Post by **Ravengm** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:41 pm

As far as I can tell, it's more a nag on the mindset of people than anything. The typical thoughts around fighters seems to be:

"I want to play a mundane fightan dude with a sword."
"If I do anything other than hack with the sword, I'm neither mundane nor a Fighter."

Which is self-defeating, because you can't persist in this mindset for more than 5 levels without being tossed Hidden Class Features to pick up the slack, which still don't help at high levels.

The problem is, essentially, that people want to play suboptimal characters and they actually are offended by your attempts to make them not fail at life, because it goes against what their mental image of a heroic blademaster is. The problem is, when you're fighting gods, phenomenal cosmic power is exponentially more useful than doing a lot of situps and swinging 3 feet of metal around.