New to Shadowrun, would like some pointers on chargen

[Neurosis]

What? What philosophy?

The 'philosophy' that that is not how I interpreted those rules?

[Username17]

What? What philosophy?

The 'philosophy' that that is not how I interpreted those rules?

The philosophy that the raw doesn't matter because you'll just spot fix everything by ignoring all the parts you don't like. The philosophy that freezes the players out of ever being able to play their characters intelligently, or at all - because they have no way of knowing what the rules are because the rules in use in the game are 100% magical teaparty being pulled out of the MC's asshole and 0% whatever they actually read in the book.

-Username17

[Neurosis]

I feel that the SR Matrix Rules (in 4E as well as every other edition) are so completely unclear that they practically don't exist except for the few parts that everyone can agree on. I think every GM and most of the writers of product/adventures that rely on them are taking the parts they can understand and making stuff up for the parts that they can't. Reading the SR4 matrix rules at all seems to me like an act of creative interpretation. They are, in and of themselves, a magical fucking teaparty.

As an exercise (not because I think you can't, obviously you can, rather because I just want to gain a better understanding of this thing I'm being cursed out over) could you show/quote me all of the page references and exact wording in SR4 that lead you to the conclusion that you have there, and also to the conviction that there was no other way to interpret those rules? If you can avoid it, don't use Unwired at all. Assume the only book we have to work with is the SR4 Corebook.

[Username17]

The SR4 matrix rules are unfortunately not unclear, they are overly complicated. Which isn't the same thing, at all.

could you show/quote me all of the page references and exact wording in SR4 that lead you to the conclusion that you have there, and also to the conviction that there was no other way to interpret those rules? If you can avoid it, don't use Unwired at all. Assume the only book we have to work with is the SR4 Corebook.

No, I can't, because the concepts of permissions and allowed access ID lists was a really shitty insert from Unwired. Using just the Core Book, the game fails in a number of different ways, having as it does Infinity Mirror and Agent Smith, but it does not allow you to block out all possible hacking attempts against you. It allows you to send an unlimited number of agents against any target who are all immune to attacks unless and until someone takes an unlimited number of analyze icon actions. And the only defense is cutting yourself off from the matrix entirely, and even that isn't very good, because trode nets have a range and other people can plug you into the matrix without even rolling dice because the action to log on doesn't have an opposed die roll.

But yeah, Infinity Mirror is very simply and explicitly defined right there in the core book:

If you wish to specifically examine an ARO, users, programs, IC, nodes, files, etc., take a Simple Action to Analyze Icon/Node (p. 229). Make a Matrix Perception test using your Computer + Analyze program (rather than Perception + Intuition). Your hits determine how successful the examination is. For each hit scored, you can ask for one piece of information about the object—this could be type, rating, alert status, or any other pertinent information; a list of possible details you could gather from a Matrix Perception test can be found in the Matrix Perception Data sidebar.

Got that? You target an icon and take a Simple Fucking Action, and then make an opposed roll, and then if you win, you find out if the icon represents an Agent Smith or one of the literally unlimited number of AROs he is travelling with. That's Infinity Mirror. It's very clear, there is no other interpretation possible. You do not select Agent Smith and then make an opposed test to find which icon is his, you select the icon and make an opposed test to find out if Agent Smith is behind Door #3187.

-Username17

[Neurosis]

The SR4 matrix rules are unfortunately not unclear, they are overly complicated. Which isn't the same thing, at all.

While these are obviously distinct concepts, Frank, they certainly have the same end effect for most people.

I use SR4 (as opposed to 4A) for just about everything except pretty pictures. But in any case you are not quoting the parts that I want to see...and once again, without the proper supporting quotes from the source text, all of this looks kind of like a zany interpretation on your part. I have read SR4. Especially the Matrix chapter. Several times. And none of my readings have lead me to these conclusions.

It allows you to send an unlimited number of agents against any target who are all immune to attacks unless and until someone takes an unlimited number of analyze icon actions.

1. Isn't it impossible to even run an unlimited or arbitrarily high number of agents? Doesn't running agents, like running programs, eventually decrement your Response?

2. Where is the quote that indicates they are immune to attacks until Analyzed? That seems like the more important piece of the puzzle. I mean, to be honest it just seems like you have assumptions here that I am not assuming.

And the only defense is cutting yourself off from the matrix entirely, and even that isn't very good, because trode nets have a range and other people can plug you into the matrix without even rolling dice because the action to log on doesn't have an opposed die roll.

I'd like to see where this is explicitly and specifically defined as being possible. Sure 'Log On' doesn't have an opposed die roll, but neither does 'Drop Held Item' or whatever, and you can't make another character do that. Where does it say that being in possession of a trode net allows you to log someone else onto the Matrix against their will?

[cthulhu]

2. Where is the quote that indicates they are immune to attacks until Analyzed? That seems like the more important piece of the puzzle. I mean, to be honest it just seems like you have assumptions here that I am not assuming.

I'm not sure it does.. but remember that you don't know the type until you analyse it.

So the GM says "There are 8900 AROs here."

And you say.. "Okay, tell me more"

And then he says "About which object?

And you say "ARO 8899" *rolls dice*

And he says "Okay it's a file, inside is the text LOL.. now you get hit by a nuke program!"

[Echoes]

1. Isn't it impossible to even run an unlimited or arbitrarily high number of agents? Doesn't running agents, like running programs, eventually decrement your Response?

Only if you have them running on your persona. Instead, you can just shove them into other nodes and they'll run independently. There is a limit, since they count as active subscribers, but the rub is that since agents are programs that can run other programs, you can just have all your independent agents running other independent agents and so on, giving you an arbitrary number of actors running around. All that's on pages 227-228, except the subscriber stuff which is on page 221.

2. Where is the quote that indicates they are immune to attacks until Analyzed? That seems like the more important piece of the puzzle. I mean, to be honest it just seems like you have assumptions here that I am not assuming.

I would assume because all of your agents are running Stealth because you, as a hacker, are not a fucking moron. This requires someone to make an Analyze test to notice each of your infinite agents individually. Meanwhile, all of your infinite agents have launched an infinite number of attacks using whatever programs you feel like. You can just fucking melt peoples' brains with Black Hammer if you don't care about anything else, assuming they have a simsense module (regardless of whether it's on or not, because you can just turn it the fuck on).

And the only defense is cutting yourself off from the matrix entirely, and even that isn't very good, because trode nets have a range and other people can plug you into the matrix without even rolling dice because the action to log on doesn't have an opposed die roll.

I'd like to see where this is explicitly and specifically defined as being possible.

Fuck you. You don't get to say that because it doesn't specifically give that as an example, it doesn't work.

Sure 'Log On' doesn't have an opposed die roll, but neither does 'Drop Held Item' or whatever, and you can't make another character do that. Where does it say that being in possession of a trode net allows you to log someone else onto the Matrix against their will?

You can remotely control any device that you are in range of and that's on. This means that if their PAN has a range (which it does, because they can access the Matrix at all), you can connect it to the Matrix provided you connect to their PAN (which you can do, because you're a goddamn Batman hacker). The only way to bypass this is if they physically remove themselves from their PAN entirely or block out all signals via a Faraday cage or some shit. Option A means they can do fuck-all and you can go about your Matrix business as you like. Option 2 is worse, because it's all kinds of obvious and lots of parties with guns are going to want to know what the fuck that person is hiding.

[Neurosis]

And he says "Okay it's a file, inside is the text LOL.. now you get hit by a nuke program!"

Okay, so if you got to the trouble (I don't know how minimal that trouble is) of having loads of decoys, you can get the element of surprise. But once you open up with attack programs, obviously you can be targeted, right? You are the one using attack programs.

Only if you have them running on your persona. Instead, you can just shove them into other nodes and they'll run independently. There is a limit, since they count as active subscribers, but the rub is that since agents are programs that can run other programs, you can just have all your independent agents running other independent agents and so on, giving you an arbitrary number of actors running around. All that's on pages 227-228, except the subscriber stuff which is on page 221.

Okay, getting into vagary here but...won't all of those agents crash the node they're running on by overloading its processor limit? And don't you need to succeed some kind of test to get that node to run them?

I would assume because all of your agents are running Stealth because you, as a hacker, are not a fucking moron. This requires someone to make an Analyze test to notice each of your infinite agents individually.

At what rating? What is the rating of the agents? Isn't having like, a million high rating Agents with high rating Stealth and high rating Black Hammer like....prohibitively expensive?

You can just fucking melt peoples' brains with Black Hammer if you don't care about anything else, assuming they have a simsense module (regardless of whether it's on or not, because you can just turn it the fuck on).

Don't you have to first hack into their commlink to activate their simsense module? Also don't they have to be wearing trodes or equipped with a DNI to access the sim module? Additionally, what you definitely can't do is modify their sim module for hot sim if it isn't or even switch it to hot sim if it's in cold (p. 328 SR4A).

Fuck you. You don't get to say that because it doesn't specifically give that as an example, it doesn't work.

I don't get to...use common sense? If this was Rules As Intended, wouldn't it be discussed like AT ALL in the RAW?

You can remotely control any device that you are in range of and that's on. This means that if their PAN has a range (which it does, because they can access the Matrix at all), you can connect it to the Matrix provided you connect to their PAN (which you can do, because you're a goddamn Batman hacker).

So you need to hack their PAN first right? Hacking + Exploit? Gain the proper permissions (probably Admin) and then do whatever? That's what you mean by being Batman/a hacker? Well that I am fine with. Actually hacking into someone's system and THEN fucking their shit is what hackers are supposed to do.

[cthulhu]

And he says "Okay it's a file, inside is the text LOL.. now you get hit by a nuke program!"

Okay, so if you got to the trouble (I don't know how minimal that trouble is) of having loads of decoys, you can get the element of surprise. But once you open up with attack programs, obviously you can be targeted, right? You are the one using attack programs.

Really? Want to quote the bit that says that to me?

[Quantumboost]

At what rating? What is the rating of the agents? Isn't having like, a million high rating Agents with high rating Stealth and high rating Black Hammer like....prohibitively expensive?

Agents and the things they run are programs. You can just get one copy of a Rating whatever agent and a Rating whatever Black Hammer, crack the copy protection (which isn't even *there* if you're using pirated or home-grown programs), and run as many copies as you want. SR4 Page 228, Source Code and Piracy.

I don't get to...use common sense? If this was Rules As Intended, wouldn't it be discussed like AT ALL in the RAW?

It doesn't fucking matter whether this is Rules As Intended. It's a direct consequence of Rules As Written, and since we're presuming you're using the actual rules of the game, appealing to RAI is disingenuous at best.

[cthulhu]

It doesn't fucking matter whether this is Rules As Intended. It's a direct consequence of Rules As Written, and since we're presuming you're using the actual rules of the game, appealing to RAI is disingenuous at best.

It's not even particularly helpful here. It's quite obvious that no-one sat down and said "I am going to write some shitty matrix rules" but they did and it's not at all obvious how they think they were supposed to work.

Remember the 'worked example' they posted on dumpshock that was both broken AND YET made no sense.

Talking about the rules as Written for the matrix is fucked because they are fucked and no-one disagrees with this.

But talking about the rules as intended is even worse, because the designers themselves clearly have no common vision, and have issued multiple, conflicting PoVs for how it's supposed to work, each of which, in and of themselves, also make no sense.

It just doesn't.. make any sense. On any level.

[Username17]

Until you know whether an icon is an ARO (which you can run any number of, because it is an "unrated program" and does not cause system degradation) or an Agent, there is no point in attacking it. And "type" is actually the first thing you get after spending a simple action to analyze the icon! And we know this is "intentional" because when they ran the example of play, they actually had people making analyze tests before they could attack.

But the Matrix system is like an onion. A shitty, shitty onion where each layer is another way it is too complicated and makes no sense. So before we can even move on to the subsequent layers (Agent Smith, Dropout, Momhammer, etc.) you have to understand and accept how Infinity Mirror works - and how it makes the game not work.

-Username17

[Echoes]

Okay, getting into vagary here but...won't all of those agents crash the node they're running on by overloading its processor limit? And don't you need to succeed some kind of test to get that node to run them?

Independent agents function like people accessing a node. So unless lots of Matrix activity will crash a node, which doesn't seem to happen (DDoS attacks are apparently gone in SR), no. SR computers are arbitrary in their bandwidth limits, as far as I can tell.

At what rating? What is the rating of the agents? Isn't having like, a million high rating Agents with high rating Stealth and high rating Black Hammer like....prohibitively expensive?

You have one Agent program that you run multiple copies of. Likewise with Stealth and Black Hammer and whatever else you want, because they can just use the programs you have. Their rating is largely irrelevant. You set it to "high as fuck" and then they get capped out by the System of whatever node they're on. But it doesn't matter, because they're infinite, and probability dictates your target will fail some small fraction of their defense rolls. You'll eventually beat them down, and by eventually I mean this round.

Don't you have to first hack into their commlink to activate their simsense module? Also don't they have to be wearing trodes or equipped with a DNI to access the sim module? Additionally, what you definitely can't do is modify their sim module for hot sim if it isn't or even switch it to hot sim if it's in cold (p. 328 SR4A).

If they use a sim module at all, it's part of their datajack. And since even cold sim basically takes you out of the fight (-6 penalty to everything in the real world) they're fucked. Plus, black hammer still does stun damage in cold sim, which means their brain gets pounded into unconsciousness on the spot.

Note that all of these actions can be taken by the infinite army of agents that are assaulting them. It's not like you need to spend real actions to do any of this. You don't even need to be connected to the Matrix for any of this shit to go down. You can be lounging in your Lay-Z-Boy at home watching porn while your army of agents goes and knocks out everyone with a sim module at the megacorp base, or whatever.

I don't get to...use common sense? If this was Rules As Intended, wouldn't it be discussed like AT ALL in the RAW?

The rules say you can tell Matrix-enabled devices to do shit. One of the things a commlink can do is log on to the Matrix. Ergo, you can fucking tell it to log on to the Matrix. Just because it does not explicitly describe every action you can conceivably take does not mean you can't take any of those actions.

So you need to hack their PAN first right? Hacking + Exploit? Gain the proper permissions (probably Admin) and then do whatever? That's what you mean by being Batman/a hacker? Well that I am fine with. Actually hacking into someone's system and THEN fucking their shit is what hackers are supposed to do.

Yes. Now, this is rendered moot because with Unwired, you can literally set all of your shit to "Allow Hacking Attempts [Y]/[N]? [N]" and tell everyone to fuck right off as Frank explained. Without that, logging off the Matrix doesn't really get them anywhere because you just piggyback onto their PAN and plug them back in. This is assuming, of course, that you don't just want to get them out of the way in the Matrix, in which case you can just log them off and prevent them from logging back on. Either way, you win. Or rather, your army of agents wins. You're still watching porn.

[Neurosis]

Agents and the things they run are programs. You can just get one copy of a Rating whatever agent and a Rating whatever Black Hammer, crack the copy protection (which isn't even *there* if you're using pirated or home-grown programs), and run as many copies as you want. SR4 Page 228, Source Code and Piracy.

From my reading of those two paragraphs, it seems like you have to succeed a threshold ~15 Software + Logic (1 Hour) test for each copy you wish to make. Which means getting 9000 copies takes like 20,000 hours? Of course, I may be reading it wrong.

I'm not familiar with the rules for piracy/homebrew programs in Unwired.

It's not even particularly helpful here. It's quite obvious that no-one sat down and said "I am going to write some shitty matrix rules" but they did and it's not at all obvious how they think they were supposed to work.

Remember the 'worked example' they posted on dumpshock that was both broken AND YET made no sense.

Talking about the rules as Written for the matrix is fucked because they are fucked and no-one disagrees with this.

But talking about the rules as intended is even worse, because the designers themselves clearly have no common vision, and have issued multiple, conflicting PoVs for how it's supposed to work, each of which, in and of themselves, also make no sense.

It just doesn't.. make any sense. On any level.

In the face of that, isn't it a reasonable reaction to favor whatever interpretation seems the most normal and balanced rather than allowing for game-breaking, fun-destroying loopholes?

Until you know whether an icon is an ARO (which you can run any number of, because it is an "unrated program" and does not cause system degradation) or an Agent, there is no point in attacking it. And "type" is actually the first thing you get after spending a simple action to analyze the icon! And we know this is "intentional" because when they ran the example of play, they actually had people making analyze tests before they could attack.

Once again, this is a rule that I am glad I have been (unintentionally) ignoring because it sounds really dumb.

But the Matrix system is like an onion. A shitty, shitty onion where each layer is another way it is too complicated and makes no sense. So before we can even move on to the subsequent layers (Agent Smith, Dropout, Momhammer, etc.) you have to understand and accept how Infinity Mirror works - and how it makes the game not work.

Assuming I do, why is the response to my statement that "That is stupid I guess I have been subconsciously house-ruling it, and should continue to do so" a big fuck you? Why is ignoring (and by ignoring, for all practical purposes at my table, fixing) the parts that make the game not work a bad thing?

Independent agents function like people accessing a node. So unless lots of Matrix activity will crash a node, which doesn't seem to happen (DDoS attacks are apparently gone in SR), no. SR computers are arbitrary in their bandwidth limits, as far as I can tell.

DDOS are mentioned in Unwired I think but I have no idea what it says about them.

You have one Agent program that you run multiple copies of. Likewise with Stealth and Black Hammer and whatever else you want, because they can just use the programs you have. Their rating is largely irrelevant. You set it to "high as fuck" and then they get capped out by the System of whatever node they're on. But it doesn't matter, because they're infinite, and probability dictates your target will fail some small fraction of their defense rolls. You'll eventually beat them down, and by eventually I mean this round.

I thought there was a limit to the programs (including Agents) that could run on a given note.

If they use a sim module at all, it's part of their datajack. And since even cold sim basically takes you out of the fight (-6 penalty to everything in the real world) they're fucked. Plus, black hammer still does stun damage in cold sim, which means they're brain gets pounded into unconsciousness on the spot.

It seems immaterial to the rest of your statements, but I'm pretty sure that a Sim Module is part of a Commlink, not a Datajack (pp. 317-318 SR4).

Note that all of these actions can be taken by the infinite army of agents that are assaulting them. It's not like you need to spend real actions to do any of this. You don't even need to be connected to the Matrix for any of this shit to go down. You can be lounging in your Lay-Z-Boy at home watching porn while your army of agents goes and knocks out everyone with a sim module at the megacorp base, or whatever.

That seems...bad.

If the creators had intended it to work this way (which not to get ahead of myself is in-con-fucking-ceivable) wouldn't the possibility of the hacker pulling antics like that be considered in subsequent published adventures rather than assuming you had to actually go and like, do a Shadowrun?

Now, this is rendered moot because with Unwired, you can literally set all of your shit to "Allow Hacking Attempts [Y]/[N]? [N]" and tell everyone to fuck right off as Frank explained. Without that, logging off the Matrix doesn't really get them anywhere because you just piggyback onto their PAN and plug them back in. This is assuming, of course, that you don't just want to get them out of the way in the Matrix, in which case you can just log them off and prevent them from logging back on. Either way, you win. Or rather, your army of agents wins. You're still watching porn.

Again, this seems...bad...and probably not the way the game was INTENDED to be played. Isn't that a reasonable assumption? Even if we don't know the exact intent of the designers.

[cthulhu]

In the face of that, isn't it a reasonable reaction to favor whatever interpretation seems the most normal and balanced rather than allowing for game-breaking, fun-destroying loopholes?

The developers version of this is that a security spider can literally never see a technomancer.. ever.

Assuming I do, why is the response to my statement that "That is stupid I guess I have been subconsciously house-ruling it, and should continue to do so" a big fuck you? Why is ignoring (and by ignoring, for all practical purposes at my table, fixing) the parts that make the game not work a bad thing?

Because the rules are SO BAD there are literally dozens of possible interpretations in a thread with 50 posts in on in dump shock.

Than means any group of 4 people is likely to have at least two wildly different interpretations of how the rules "should" (Airquotes) work.

Subconsciously house ruling it is a major fuck you to your hacker, because the changes are very fucking low that he actually shares your interpretation of the rules. Going back to that dumpshock thread, if you pulled two people at random out of the thread and say 'You're the GM and you're the hacker' the chance of them both having the same understanding is less than 7%

So basically in your subconscious house rules model what you are saying to your hacker is "You're playing a game. It has some rules. I am not going to fucking tell you what the rules are, AND SUCK IT DOWN BITCH!!11!eleventy-one!!"

This is grossly offensive. I understand the need for massive house rules to make the matrix rules functional. However your moral duty is to 'write them down' then 'give them to your hacker before he generates a character' and finally 'stick to them'

'Sub conciously ignoring the rules on the fly' is retarded and just violates your player's agency right up the ass.

[Neurosis]

But it just so happens that every hacker in my group has had all of the same "misunderstandings" I have had independent of me. So at my table, it's a complete non-issue. No one knew about "Infinity Mirror" etc. No one assumed things worked that way. Likewise no one on Dumpshock appears to think that Infinity Mirror is actually possible/viable in their games, and none of the hacking threads I've seen have discussed it. The general consensus there on how hacking works is much closer to what I saw at my table than the ideas here. As someone said earlier, if RAW is that poorly written/understood then it practically doesn't exist.

At least now I finally understand why you were offended (that it was an issue of player agency), but I still think you overreacted and were needlessly rude. I mean for emphasis, I did not fully know until just now what I had done "wrong" in your eyes.

All uses of you in the above sentence do not refer to any one particular person.

[Quantumboost]

Agents and the things they run are programs. You can just get one copy of a Rating whatever agent and a Rating whatever Black Hammer, crack the copy protection (which isn't even *there* if you're using pirated or home-grown programs), and run as many copies as you want. SR4 Page 228, Source Code and Piracy.

From my reading of those two paragraphs, it seems like you have to succeed a threshold ~15 Software + Logic (1 Hour) test for each copy you wish to make. Which means getting 9000 copies takes like 20,000 hours? Of course, I may be reading it wrong.

I'm not familiar with the rules for piracy/homebrew programs in Unwired.

It's really, really simple. "Copy protection" is a type of encryption that prevents you from making a copy of the program's code. If something *has* copy protection, you need to crack that copy protection in order to copy it (no other restriction on copying program code is listed). If you make your own software, or get a pirated copy, there is no copy protection.

Once you've obtained a program without copy protection, whether by cracking it or having it simply never have been there in the first place, you can copy it without restriction.

[Username17]

But it just so happens that every hacker in my group has had all of the same "misunderstandings" I have had independent of me.

How do you know that?

Until you've exhaustively discussed every permutation of how the rules are written and what you think they are supposed to mean, you have no fucking clue whether you are actually on the same page as someone else.

This is like you speaking English. Only you replaced all the nouns with other words that "felt better" to you. Other people you are talking to seem to look you in the eyes and nod when you talk, but what do they think you are saying? You have no idea.

It is your moral and practical duty to write down your fucking house rules and stick to them. To do things based on your subconscious and entirely private understanding of how the world should work is not only cruel, it's also pointless. Because there is absolutely no way of knowing whether people at the table understand your house rules or not until you tell them explicitly what they are.

-Username17

[cthulhu]

But it just so happens that every hacker in my group has had all of the same "misunderstandings" I have had independent of me. So at my table, it's a complete non-issue. No one knew about "Infinity Mirror" etc. No one assumed things worked that way. Likewise no one on Dumpshock appears to think that Infinity Mirror is actually possible/viable in their games, and none of the hacking threads I've seen have discussed it. The general consensus there on how hacking works is much closer to what I saw at my table than the ideas here. As someone said earlier, if RAW is that poorly written/understood then it practically doesn't exist.

You know the reason most people don't think infinity mirror exists? Because they've never read the rules! Most people don't know how you find an icon that you are looking for the in the node! When prompted for 'how do you think a hack works by RAW' people write down dozens of completely different things.

And that's when they can SEE each others written down explanations so are effected by the natural urge to conform AND have a written rule book that they can look at! If you sat them in SEPARATE rooms and repeated the experiment you'd get YET MORE different answers.

It's a real issue.

[Username17]

A rundown of how the rules actually "work" is Here.

-Username17

[CatharzGodfoot]

Assuming I do, why is the response to my statement that "That is stupid I guess I have been subconsciously house-ruling it, and should continue to do so" a big fuck you? Why is ignoring (and by ignoring, for all practical purposes at my table, fixing) the parts that make the game not work a bad thing?

Because, Schwarzkopf, nobody (apparently not even you) knows how the matrix works in your games. If somebody wants to create a hacker, they'll go and look up the rules for hacking in the book, and then assume they work as stated unless you provide some explicit alternate rule set. Then they play in your game, and it turns out that they're not actually playing SR4 when they hack. They're not even playing house ruled SR4; they're playing 'Schwarzkopf makes up the rules on the fly'.

Unless there's some universal reinterpretation of the SR4 hacking rules that everybody automagically arrives at, "rules as intended" simply don't exist. You can show that RAI don't exist just by looking at how different SR4 authors think the Matrix should work -- let alone different GMs.

This is a very silly interpretation of these rules. Even if it is RAW, that doesn't change, and I can't imagine that it was Rules As Intended. In any case, it's a good thing no one actually play this way. Thank goodness for common sense being used to sub-consciously house-rule the more retarded bits by ignoring them.

[Neurosis]

It is your moral and practical duty to write down your fucking house rules and stick to them. To do things based on your subconscious and entirely private understanding of how the world should work is not only cruel, it's also pointless. Because there is absolutely no way of knowing whether people at the table understand your house rules or not until you tell them explicitly what they are.

I did not know they were house rules until just now. It was my interpretation of the rules as written. And I still kind of think of it that way in spite of all the vitriol. If anything my position (I didn't even know I had one) is being galvanized by all the yelling.

You know the reason most people don't think infinity mirror exists? Because they've never read the rules! Most people don't know how you find an icon that you are looking for the in the node! When prompted for 'how do you think a hack works by RAW' people write down dozens of completely different things.

I read the rules several times and did not know Infinity Mirror existed. It is a function of the rules being poorly written, unclear, and overly complicated.

A rundown of how the rules actually "work" is Here.

That seems helpful. Maybe it will give me any idea at all of how to go about writing down my house rules. Probably not though as in general Frank your explanation of things go too fast for me to follow along.

Because, Schwarzkopf, nobody (apparently not even you) knows how the matrix works in your games. If somebody wants to create a hacker, they'll go and look up the rules for hacking in the book, and then assume they work as stated unless you provide some explicit alternate rule set. Then they play in your game, and it turns out that they're not actually playing SR4 when they hack. They're not even playing house ruled SR4; they're playing 'Schwarzkopf makes up the rules on the fly'.

No one knows how the matrix works anywhere is what everyone seems to be saying.

Anyway all I can say is that me making up the matrix rules on the fly (which I can't deny that I'm guilty of) has served my campaign better than I imagine a thorough comprehension and slavish devotion to the RAW would have. Because even if my Matrix rules were nebulous and changed every game at least we didn't have to deal with bullshit like Infinity Mirror.

Anyway for...personal reasons...I am endeavoring to understand the Matrix rules and maybe even set down my House Rules such that they were in writing. Anyone mind if I necro that thread rather than derailing this topic?

[Username17]

If you want to necro a thread to discuss the RAW or possible fixes to the RAW, go ahead.

-Username17

[Neurosis]

Sweet. Thread derail end.

[Echoes]

Y'know, I realized something. I had Infinity Mirror completely wrong. I thought Agent Smith was Infinity Mirror. This is what happens when I don't read Frank's explanation of things and try to figure out what the rules say.

Still works, I was just responding to the argument against Infinity Mirror with Agent Smith.