The Gaming Den

Hello clever people of the den, I came to ask for some advice.

I am about to start an Eberron game over on MythWeavers using the Tome rules. Now this will be the first game I'll attempt to run myself so I'm trying to make sure there are no oversights. You can find it here.

So far I have been having doubts concerning the wealth and crafting system. Going by the wish economy rules I have made dragonshards the default planar currency to use for high level item purchases. But I wonder, will that cause problems for the setting? Most of Eberrons magitech runs on elementas bound through dragonshards, this makes cities much more productive but at the same time, those shards could be used to get powerful magic items. So the question is, is it worth spending some of your planar currency to improve the kingdom you rule over or is getting better magic items the logical choice?

Then we move on to crafting. The rules I decided to use is that a crafter wizard does not spend neither XP nor Gold to make magic items. Instead, only the standard time it take to craft remains. This process can be made faster by spending dragonshards, up to 30% faster if you pay 30% of the base price. In addition, a wizard can make only one item per level at his max CL per craft feat, any other items made during that level are made at a -4 penalty to CL, so some items can't be made at all. Does this seem like a fair system?

Another thing I'm uncertain of is how to handle metamagic reduction, since I'm using the metamagic levels system that runs off the highest levels spells that a character can cast, I am thinking of disallowing metamagic reduction but keeping metamagic rods as they are.

In any case, if you also feel like browsing through my other houserules go right ahead. 3.5 is pretty rules heavy and it is very likely that I missed some things.

In general, the dragon shards are not well explained. They don't seem to do anything. You spend the normal amount to craft things whether they include Dragon Shards or not.

My suggestion would be to shy away from force multipliers like "30% less time" or whatever. Simply put absolute caps on what you can make without a dragon shard. Possibly, people can only build items up to X levels less than their caster level without a shard, and Greater Magic Items require shards regardless.

-Username17

If you ever have to choose between 'the items that keep you level appropriate' and 'anything that isn't this' the correct answer is always the former. So if you want people to care about 'improving kingdoms' this will never happen unless it in no way conflicts with your shiny magic items.

Further, limitations on crafting favor the crafter. Yeah, you heard me right. If a crafter can only make some small number of items at full power, they'll just make them all for themselves. Which means the crafter still gets a power boost, but the rest of the party is left out in the cold. The only way you're going to see the love spread around is if you do not limit what the crafter can produce based on their own resources.

And limiting by caster level is a quite meaningless distinction anyways as most of the items you'll actually use have a CL less than, or equal to 10. +6 stat items, +5 resist cloaks, random AC booster items... So not only is it a poor metric, it's a poor metric that doesn't actually do anything.

Metamagic reduction also rarely matters outside of people trying to blast for something other than piddly shit. No other builds really use or need it. So whatever you do about metamagic cost reduction won't really amount to anything.

I also found this hidden among the Tome copy pasta.

Special: You cannot make attacks of opportunity with the spike chain or any similar weapon (ie. the drow chain).

Any particular reason you're massively nerfing non casters here?

Angels, beholders, monsters with PC spellcasting, and drow typically fall into this category.

Beholders and drow? Really? Seriously?

Want in as Stormlord.

FrankTrollman wrote:In general, the dragon shards are not well explained. They don't seem to do anything. You spend the normal amount to craft things whether they include Dragon Shards or not.

My suggestion would be to shy away from force multipliers like "30% less time" or whatever. Simply put absolute caps on what you can make without a dragon shard. Possibly, people can only build items up to X levels less than their caster level without a shard, and Greater Magic Items require shards regardless.

-Username17

For that to work I'd assume dragonshards need to work more like rare reagents rather than currency, do I get this right?
I'll probably make this apply to items costing over 15k so that pre wish economy characters don't get the short end of the stick.

Roy wrote:If you ever have to choose between 'the items that keep you level appropriate' and 'anything that isn't this' the correct answer is always the former. So if you want people to care about 'improving kingdoms' this will never happen unless it in no way conflicts with your shiny magic items.

My current idea is to rule it so that you can do an infinite number of elemental bindings from a single Khyber shard, that way it does not get wasted when you use it for purposes other than character power. However, once used to create a magic item, it is gone.

Further, limitations on crafting favor the crafter. Yeah, you heard me right. If a crafter can only make some small number of items at full power, they'll just make them all for themselves. Which means the crafter still gets a power boost, but the rest of the party is left out in the cold. The only way you're going to see the love spread around is if you do not limit what the crafter can produce based on their own resources.

And limiting by caster level is a quite meaningless distinction anyways as most of the items you'll actually use have a CL less than, or equal to 10. +6 stat items, +5 resist cloaks, random AC booster items... So not only is it a poor metric, it's a poor metric that doesn't actually do anything.

Well we are talking about Tome items, all the bonus you listed? You already get that stuff for free. The only thing that matter are the effects.

But anyway, I'll probably remove it. Dragonshards can do a good enough job of limiting crafters.

Roy wrote:Any particular reason you're massively nerfing non casters here?

This is a tome game. Non casters actually have options here that don't boil down to "I trip him" or "I charge him for massive damage". They totally do.
But if somebody is really set on playing a tripper they can use any other weapon that provides reach and allows trip attempts. The spiked chain always seemed more a situational weapon like the whip rather than something that a character would rely on.

Roy wrote:Beholders and drow? Really? Seriously?

That's taken from the tomes so you would have to take it up to frank. With beholders I can understand what with the amount of save or lose that they can put out. Drow, on the other hand, are only there because they always carry PC level gear with them so I think that is just an oversight.

Kaelik wrote:Want in as Stormlord.

Sure.

It will be some time before I am done however. I still need to fix a number of races that people might want to play (Tri-Kreen, Duergar, etc.) Koumei has already made playable yuan-ti so that will help.

And then I will need to buff psionics to be on par with magic.

You could rule that khyber dragonshards are used for one thing (say, large-scale wards), eberron dragonshards are used for another (elemental binding?) and sybaris shards alone are used in making personal magic items.

Dominicius wrote:This is a tome game. Non casters actually have options here that don't boil down to "I trip him" or "I charge him for massive damage". They totally do.
But if somebody is really set on playing a tripper they can use any other weapon that provides reach and allows trip attempts. The spiked chain always seemed more a situational weapon like the whip rather than something that a character would rely on.

Fair enough about rope weapons being situational (although, aside from the whip, they just tend to be hard to learn). However, the situation they excel at is when you want to trip or disarm somebody at range...

Had an idea for a raven themed armoured martial character last night, so I'm thinking I want in with a samurai, though the class might change.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Fair enough about rope weapons being situational (although, aside from the whip, they just tend to be hard to learn). However, the situation they excel at is when you want to trip or disarm somebody at range...

Point taken. How about not being able to power attack with them instead?

Prak_Anima wrote:Had an idea for a raven themed armoured martial character last night, so I'm thinking I want in with a samurai, though the class might change.

One thing I should mention is that everybody who wants into the game will need to apply before they are accepted and, depending on the number of applications, not everybody will be accepted.

fair enough. Why not tell us, or put on your game forum, the application info you're looking for?

I remember hearing "buff... psionics" somewhere here.

A thought:
Y'know how psionics does that powerpoint thing? Well, we could use that Tome errata where spell DCs are 10 + .5(Charlevel) + StatMod, but psionics still has shitty DCs... however, you use powerpoints instead of using the vancian system.

And then just make every single spell an equal-level power.

That sounds cool. I'm not sure if it's a good idea, though.

Psionics doesn't need buffing for the most part. If you're going to do anything, just fold some of the psionic and metapsionic feats together.

Prak_Anima wrote:fair enough. Why not tell us, or put on your game forum, the application info you're looking for?

Don't worry, once I put up the add you will have two weeks and two days to write up your character and fill out your character sheet.

For now I'll say that characters will start at level 7. They will find themselves in Regalport for some reason that will be up to the players. The game itself will focus on the character so I will rely on you to provide me with some hooks good enough to make an entire campaign out of.

As for my own tastes, I grew up reading books by Nick Perumov rather than Tolkien or Robert E. Howard so I have different views and expectations when it comes to fantasy.
I like characters in fantasy to feel fantastic either having three cases of amnesia with one life being an archmage, the other an assassin and third a prophet, or having a character who's soul has inherited the body of one of the most powerful necromancers in the world and now he must seek to live up to the title or even a character that has looked into the mind of Asmodeus himself but could barely comprehend what he saw but as time goes on and his quest continues he slowly begins to realize the meaning of true evil.
Now if you make a more down to earth character, that is fine too. As long as it is well written, it will probably get in. The only reason that I have said all this is because I have seen many DMs that prefer characters that are more real in a sense but I'm ok if your concept doesn't have that. You can make characters who have plots that span the multiverse and it will be fine with me.

ubernoob wrote:Psionics doesn't need buffing for the most part. If you're going to do anything, just fold some of the psionic and metapsionic feats together

The problem with psionics is not that are not powerful per say, they have a lot of good single target save-or-lose type spells and good utility.

However, when it comes to area of effect shenanigans, well... let me just give you an example.

This is a first level wizard spell:

Color Spray

...and this is the psionic "equivalent":

Disable

Stuff like this happens at every level and it just makes me sad.

1) Yeah, Psionics gets screwed on AoE effects, except Energy Stun. But other than that, they are pretty decent. And hey, All Psionics characters get free quickens but better at the cost of two feats and power known.

2) You could alawys check Sinisters Psionic classes out.

3) Make Torc of Power Preservation a medium ability or something, so Psions can keep it.

Dominicius wrote:My current idea is to rule it so that you can do an infinite number of elemental bindings from a single Khyber shard, that way it does not get wasted when you use it for purposes other than character power. However, once used to create a magic item, it is gone.

That still means you have to have planar currency in order to be able to bind elementals. Which means you can totally go beat em up and take it. Isn't the whole point of the arbitrary 15,001 fiat so you can't just kill them and take their stuff?

Well we are talking about Tome items, all the bonus you listed? You already get that stuff for free. The only thing that matter are the effects.

But anyway, I'll probably remove it. Dragonshards can do a good enough job of limiting crafters.

Not quite.

This is a tome game. Non casters actually have options here that don't boil down to "I trip him" or "I charge him for massive damage". They totally do.
But if somebody is really set on playing a tripper they can use any other weapon that provides reach and allows trip attempts. The spiked chain always seemed more a situational weapon like the whip rather than something that a character would rely on.

Also not quite.

That's taken from the tomes so you would have to take it up to frank. With beholders I can understand what with the amount of save or lose that they can put out. Drow, on the other hand, are only there because they always carry PC level gear with them so I think that is just an oversight.

Beholders are the Monks of the D&D world. Casting 5 spells isn't impressive if they all miss. Which is what tends to happen when you throw around DCs at level 14 that belong a lot closer to level 4.

And since when do any NPCs carry PC level gear? They have NPC gear, which is why they're jokes. In 1st and 2nd edition they had fuck you armor of distingrates in sunlight +6, but not in any modern game.

Kaelik wrote: 3) Make Torc of Power Preservation a medium ability or something, so Psions can keep it.

An alternative to the torc is Earth Power, a feat from Races of Stone. You regain 1 PP when you manifest while touching the ground. Requires the feat Earthsense or something.

Much more limited, but there you go.

Meikle641 wrote:

Kaelik wrote: 3) Make Torc of Power Preservation a medium ability or something, so Psions can keep it.

An alternative to the torc is Earth Power, a feat from Races of Stone. You regain 1 PP when you manifest while touching the ground. Requires the feat Earthsense or something.

Much more limited, but there you go.

Anything which requires an Int based caster to have a Wis of 15 is fucking retarded.

Add that to the fact that it's got a feat prereq. Something really useless that I don't remember the name of.

But I don't think we're talking about the feat here, just the benefit it gives.

Dominicius wrote:For now I'll say that characters will start at level 7.

Any chance you could give us a method of generating stats?

CatharzGodfoot wrote:You could rule that khyber dragonshards are used for one thing (say, large-scale wards), eberron dragonshards are used for another (elemental binding?) and sybaris shards alone are used in making personal magic items.

I think this could be done, Khyber would be used for elemetal binding, Eberron would be used for dragonmarks in some way. And Syberis are use magic items like you say.

The only thing that would need to be adjusted is that Syberis shards would have equal chance to rain down over all of Eberron.

One other thing that would be added is some sort of magic field that prevent people from flying into space and mining the asteroids.

Roy wrote:Beholders are the Monks of the D&D world. Casting 5 spells isn't impressive if they all miss. Which is what tends to happen when you throw around DCs at level 14 that belong a lot closer to level 4.

Well beholders have a +9 ranged touch attacks if I remember correctly. In the hands of a player who is granted the power to get feats and equipment I'd imagine that this number would rise to something like +22. Add in a ring of blinking and you could actually hit stuff. DCs would also increase with with magic items and player attributes but still remain somewhat low.

Kaelik wrote:Any chance you could give us a method of generating stats?

You can select the stats you feel you need for your character. Keep it reasonable but enough to keep up. I'm sure people in the den are pretty good at knowing what they need.

As for HP: max at first level and take the average after that.

Dominicius wrote:Well beholders have a +9 ranged touch attacks if I remember correctly. In the hands of a player who is granted the power to get feats and equipment I'd imagine that this number would rise to something like +22. Add in a ring of blinking and you could actually hit stuff. DCs would also increase with with magic items and player attributes but still remain somewhat low.

Facepalm.

Notice how I said DC? A spell fizzling means about the same as it missing, at least for the good ones. So it goes like the Beholder casts FoD and you save on a 2 or better, and then it casts Flesh to Stone and you save on a 2 or better, and then it casts Charm or whatever and you save on a 2 or better, and then it casts some other good spell and you save on a 2 or better... you get the idea. See how that's Monk like in that you do a quantity of attacks that seems impressive, but because the quality is so terrible it doesn't mean anything?

And its other features are Monk like too. Scattered all over the place, anti synergistic, and that will actually hurt you if you try to use them together.

Remember, this is about enemies who got labeled as under CRed, and examples included Beholders (actually over CRed due to being the Monks of the monster world), Drow (really not any more impressive than any other humanoid, and less impressive than most), and a few other things that you could label as over CRed if you're a pussy, but that really aren't but at least some kind of plausible argument could be raised for them being tougher than they look.

We're talking about level 13, right? Where unlimited Charm Monster and Disintegrate (at any DC) is still fairly broken.

Level 13 characters have:

• Between +4 and +18 to each save from class levels. If you do something about multiclass save bonuses, it is between +4 and +8.
• +5 from your Cloak of Resistance.
• Between +2 and +11 from attributes.

But the thing is, we really don't average those things. Yes, the Cleric is going to have a Wisdom of 32 and have a +8 Class bonus. And he is going to make Will Saves literally every time. But mostly characters are going to have a weakness in Will or Fort. The Wizard probably only has a 19 Con and has a +4 from class levels. His Fort save is only +13. While his class bonus to Will is good (+8), he doesn't have any reason to have a decent Wisdom, so the end result is about the same.

And a Beholder who uses any equipment at all will walk in with a DC 20+. If he tags the Wizard with Death, Disintegrate, and Petrification, the Wizard is probably dead (and if he gets hit with Charm Person, Charm Monster, and Sleep instead, he might as well be). So yeah, a Beholder in the hands of a PC would be a terrifying thing. 10 chances in the 1/3 range to murder things of your level (well, 8 chances - Charm Person won't work on most enemies, and no one gives a fuck about Cause Wounds) is still you taking out multiple enemies a turn.

-Username17

The context was 'Beholders are under CRed'. Yes, that means we're still not talking about Beholder PCs, so knock it off.

A level 13 Wizard has 4 base, at least 4 Con, and 6 resistance. He's one point short of auto pass material by default, just by using the shit he'd use anyways. I'm not even counting Wishes in that example, since you'll get +5 Con for free it's trivial to auto pass.

If it uses its Double Standard wealth on Cha boosters it gets... 1 more DC. It would probably get 2, or even 3, except those items cost over 15k, so it can't. And even if the DC is 20, you're 2 points short of auto pass material just by realizing that no one dumpstats Con, getting your obligatory Wishes, and your Con item.

So yeah, the Beholder is still the Monk of the D&D world. And if it had far fewer I win spells, but an actually level appropriate DC on them it would be objectively better for it as really once you've got one for fort and one for will you no longer give a fuck.

Roy wrote:If it uses its Double Standard wealth on Cha boosters it gets... 1 more DC. It would probably get 2, or even 3, except those items cost over 15k, so it can't. And even if the DC is 20, you're 2 points short of auto pass material just by realizing that no one dumpstats Con, getting your obligatory Wishes, and your Con item.

Roy, stop being stupid.

You arbitrarily declare that he can't buy a +4 to Cha because it costs more than 15,000gp (So you are sort of trying to institute Tome rules maybe, except note, because nothing about treasure for a CR 13 monster prevents it from having some of that in the form of post Wish level items, since it's CR 13.) but people have already explained to you that minor magic items scale in Tome, so a Beholder gets +5 Cha from an item that enhances it automatically, even if the item only costs 3000gp.

Stop declaring random nerfs on monsters by using half the Tome rules (incorrectly) but not the other half.

Also, it is about PC monsters, because it's under the section about PC fucking monsters.

Roy wrote:And if it had far fewer I win spells, but an actually level appropriate DC on them it would be objectively better for it as really once you've got one for fort and one for will you no longer give a fuck.

Beware, for that way 4.Fail lies.

And... a +5 cha item gives it... wait for it... +3 to DCs!

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