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Maj
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

True. I think the people who most rail about being immune to propaganda are the ones most vulnerable to it. And ignorance of the Tragedy of the Commons is definitely a thing. My nine year old goes off about that one a lot.
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maj wrote:
The Right believes in negative freedoms (freedom from) but not positive ones (freedom to). As far as they're concerned, the only power to bestow freedom upon the citizenry that the government has is to leave them the hell alone. This is why health care is taking away people's freedom: to them, it requires paying in to a system without consent, and is thus making them do something they don't want, and is thus not free.


A few notable exceptions to that, "the right" often wants the state to ban abortions, gay marriages, various religions etc. Though that still works if you interpret freedom from to include other people.
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Maj
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah. It's not a perfect across the board thing. And frequently, as hyzmarca pointed out, language is what sells it.

Take the LGBT wedding cake thing... It's freedom to practice religion without the government telling me what to do. Abortions are often freedom from interference on behalf of the child. Blah blah blah retch.
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hyzmarca wrote:

Because Obamacare is terrible, and the worst thing to happen to America since slavery, but the ACA is really useful thing that helps them pay for their medical insurance.

Or the worst thing since abolishing slavery, depending on who you ask.

I was listening to NPR today talking about Roy Moore and the fight going on between the Alt Right and the establishment GOP regarding his candidacy. They mentioned how many in Alabama were getting tired of Washington coming in telling them how to think. The guy they interviewed said something to the effect of "The federal government needs to stay out of the states. We fought a war in the 1860s over that, among other things".

It's like he forgot that the states rights part was the dog whistle and he's not actually supposed to hint at the real reason. Every thing I read or hear about Moore supporters in Alabama make me think that his voters are 100% assholes, with no exception.


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Koumei
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RobbyPants wrote:
The guy they interviewed said something to the effect of "The federal government needs to stay out of the states. We fought a war in the 1860s over that, among other things".


Fought and lost. Losing the war means the federal government actually does get to interfere with states (and abolish slavery), and accepting that is part of the "losing a war without everyone on your side getting gunned down or imprisoned afterwards" deal.
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fbmf
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
It's like he forgot that the states rights part was the dog whistle and he's not actually supposed to hint at the real reason.


I'm a native southerner. I have more than one of "those uncles" who pontificate loudly on this topic at family gatherings (and my mother wonders why I avoid most of them), so let me run down the mindset for you:

In the mind of alt-right tosswads "states rights" isn't a cover up/dog whistle, but just another way of saying "slavery" while also including other horrible things. For instance, one of the rights the states reserve to themselves is the "right" for slavery to be legal, but let's lets not forget the "rights" to deny women healthcare and own copious amounts of firearms purchased without a background check and gun shows, etc. "States rights" covers all of those things in their minds.

Even more amusing/tragic, my great uncle is a huge supporter of Texas seceding from the union, but that's a story for another day.

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erik
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

America's relationship with the south is vexing. It is as if the allies after having won WWII had to then go and say that the nazis and concentration camps weren't so bad, and have to reconcile why we fought in the first place.

There were tribunals for war crimes (post civil war) largely from cases of prisoner mistreatment, but enslaving people when it was not legal, notsomuch.


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nockermensch
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Joined: 06 Jan 2012
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Location: Rio: the Janeiro

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

fbmf wrote:
In the mind of alt-right tosswads "states rights" isn't a cover up/dog whistle, but just another way of saying "slavery" while also including other horrible things. For instance, one of the rights the states reserve to themselves is the "right" for slavery to be legal, but let's lets not forget the "rights" to deny women healthcare and own copious amounts of firearms purchased without a background check and gun shows, etc. "States rights" covers all of those things in their minds.

The best kind of Union is surely the one where you get to live in a regressive hell-hole while receiving federal from the more progressive states.
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Mask_De_H
Duke


Joined: 18 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

nockermensch wrote:
fbmf wrote:
In the mind of alt-right tosswads "states rights" isn't a cover up/dog whistle, but just another way of saying "slavery" while also including other horrible things. For instance, one of the rights the states reserve to themselves is the "right" for slavery to be legal, but let's lets not forget the "rights" to deny women healthcare and own copious amounts of firearms purchased without a background check and gun shows, etc. "States rights" covers all of those things in their minds.

The best kind of Union is surely the one where you get to live in a regressive hell-hole while receiving federal from the more progressive states.


Exactly. One of the reasons welfare queen works so well as a dog whistle is that a fair chunk of those kind of folks live on the dole and take full advantage of government handouts. So they project their own discomfort at being wards of a nanny state at minorities, who work harder/longer/more or require the same services they do.

They (blue collar and lower end middle class white folks) realize that compared to rich people, they're on a much lower rung of society; racists pay them in the psychological wages of "hey, at least you're not brown".
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Within 48 hours of Mick Mulvaney being named director of the Consumer Protections Bearu, the agency reverses itís stance on a mortgage company paying penalties for misleading consumers

Edit: Several female democrats are now calling on Al Franken to resign


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Starmaker
Duke


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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Location: Redmonton

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Congressman (R-Gilead) pressures staffers into bearing his surrogate children
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RobbyPants
Prince


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Al Franken decides to resign. After this announcement, several Democrats are calling on Trump to resign. He won't, of course.

It seems the Democrats are trying to rally around the strategy of taking the allegations seriously and purging their own members, while the GOP is doubling down on denying any allegations, and saying that even if they are true, kid fucking isn't bad all the time. I want to hope that the Democrat's approach will work, but Republicans have gotten really good at rationalizing and deflecting.
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Hadanelith
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Joined: 27 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It is incredibly frustrating that the Democrats' attempts to avoid hypocrisy end up giving ground to the Republicans, who just don't care. I can only hope that the Democrats will use their new ability to paint the Republicans as 'the party of kid-fuckers, rapists, and creeps' in the next election.
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Thaluikhain
Duke


Joined: 29 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hadanelith wrote:
I can only hope that the Democrats will use their new ability to paint the Republicans as 'the party of kid-fuckers, rapists, and creeps' in the next election.


Given that multiple women accused Trump of sexual assault before the election (and he bragged about it), yes, but it won't matter.

Like he said, he could shoot a guy in broad daylight and it'd not matter to his supporters, I don't see that being significantly less true of the rest of the GOP next election.
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hyzmarca
Prince


Joined: 14 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RobbyPants wrote:
Al Franken decides to resign. After this announcement, several Democrats are calling on Trump to resign. He won't, of course.

It seems the Democrats are trying to rally around the strategy of taking the allegations seriously and purging their own members, while the GOP is doubling down on denying any allegations, and saying that even if they are true, kid fucking isn't bad all the time. I want to hope that the Democrat's approach will work, but Republicans have gotten really good at rationalizing and deflecting.


It's a good strategy for the Republicans. The Democrats have lost an experienced, popular, senator and this will be a far bigger blow to them than the PR damage from the allegations would have been.

Basically the Democrats are cutting off their own noses, and the Republicans aren't quite that stupid.
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Thaluikhain
Duke


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hyzmarca wrote:
It's a good strategy for the Republicans. The Democrats have lost an experienced, popular, senator and this will be a far bigger blow to them than the PR damage from the allegations would have been.

Basically the Democrats are cutting off their own noses, and the Republicans aren't quite that stupid.


That's one way of looking at it. Might also say the Democrats are doing the right thing, getting rid of someone they morally shouldn't have in a position of power.
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Al Franken is likely to be replaced by another Democrat, and a visible commitment to actually being the party of liberal values rather than the party of "at least we're not the Republicans" helps to motivate the Democratic base to actually get out and vote and, given how transparently and disgustingly corrupt the Republicans are behaving thanks to Trump, can also help sway moderates who are otherwise taken in by "Both Sides!"

The amount of motivation and moderate swaying that actually occurs isn't clear, but I'm also not super convinced that Al Franken was all that useful to the Democrats outside of being a blue senator.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Chamomile wrote:
The amount of motivation and moderate swaying that actually occurs isn't clear, but I'm also not super convinced that Al Franken was all that useful to the Democrats outside of being a blue senator.


He was surprisingly competent on the judiciary committee. Better than most of the others, and it's not clear that his replacement will be. It could be a loss. But it's not that big of a one. (And obviously if it's a loss at all can't be discovered until someone else replaces him.)
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hyzmarca
Prince


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thaluikhain wrote:
hyzmarca wrote:
It's a good strategy for the Republicans. The Democrats have lost an experienced, popular, senator and this will be a far bigger blow to them than the PR damage from the allegations would have been.

Basically the Democrats are cutting off their own noses, and the Republicans aren't quite that stupid.


That's one way of looking at it. Might also say the Democrats are doing the right thing, getting rid of someone they morally shouldn't have in a position of power.


If they did that in the 90s, we would have had the Gore presidency from 1994 to 1996.

I really don't think its particularly viable as a strategy, because it makes you vulnerable to false allegations, and gives the opposition an effective way to strip you of experienced people.
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Blicero
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:

He was surprisingly competent on the judiciary committee. Better than most of the others, and it's not clear that his replacement will be. It could be a loss. But it's not that big of a one. (And obviously if it's a loss at all can't be discovered until someone else replaces him.)


Something I saw said that, up until the judiciary committee thing, Franken had accomplished basically nothing in the Senate. A quick skim at his wikipedia article doesn't really disagree with that, from what I can tell. That being said, the topic of evaluating how good a Senator is is presumably difficult.
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hyzmarca wrote:
I really don't think its particularly viable as a strategy, because it makes you vulnerable to false allegations, and gives the opposition an effective way to strip you of experienced people.


The false allegations thing is one thing that does make me nervous, if the narrative we walk out of this is "women never lie about rape or sexual harassment, therefore all men accused of it should be pressed into resignation." I see no particular reason to believe that's happened with Al Franken, specifically, but it wouldn't be very hard for the Republicans to dredge up a half-dozen women willing to accept a modest pay-off in exchange for claiming to have been sexually harassed, assaulted, or raped by a slew of Democratic Congressmen up for re-election come 2018.

It won't be super hard to detect that strategy, because the Republicans have to seek out women who are the right cross-section of "willing to take bribes to make baseless accusations," "have actually had or could at least plausibly have had some contact with the target Congressmen," and "won't leak the details of the arrangement before the election." Skimping on the second one means that we'll be getting accusations from rando women who've never even had contact with the accused, and skimping on the first or third means that some number of them will turn the offer down and then report it or else leak the secret because they're stupid with Facebook. The number of women who tick off all boxes neatly is probably small, you can't be sure if they tick all of the boxes until after you've bet on their doing so, and the Republicans are going to need several of them, which means that mounting credible false accusations against Democratic Congressmen for political ends without being found out is probably impossible. My concern is that credibility might get left by the wayside. I don't really trust the media to refuse to report clearly false accusations if they think it'll get them clicks and ratings.
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Double post to celebrate: Doug Jones is gonna be senator for Alabama. A Democrat. In Alabama.

By itself, this has no chance of sinking the tax bill, which had 51 senate votes and will be losing only one (and that only if Jones is seated before they vote on it, which isn't especially likely), still leaving Republicans with the 50 they need to pass the final version of the bill. However: What are the odds that at least one other red senator - especially one in a purple state, who might find it harder to comfort themselves with "well, Roy Moore was a terrible candidate, though" - sees the results of Alabama and decides they'd rather not attach their name to an unpopular tax bill? Is it too much to hope that this is where the dominoes start to fall?
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Voss
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes, far too much to hope. This vote was apparently 49% to 48.5%, with a voter turn out estimate at about 25%. To paraphrase the newscast I saw earlier, this extremely polarizing election convinced all of about 1 in 4 (voting) Alabamans to go outside and face the issues of day. And just under half of those voted against Moore.

So less than 1/8th of the qualified voters in Alabama felt the need to prove that they weren't all horrible people. This isn't change in the wind. This is about 10k-12k people essentially guilted or shamed into voting against a child molester. And that took actual effort in an absurdly close election.


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Hiram McDaniels
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I was legitimately not expecting this:

Doug Jones declared winner

Edit: Oops...old news.
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MisterDee
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Nah. Time to celebrate and enjoy the glory that is the chat for the Roy Moore HQ youtube livestream.
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