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Shrapnel
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Frank, you should just not even acknowledge that PL exists. You can get more intellectual discourse by talking to a dying cockroach.
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quick, Koumei, draw us a picture of a dying cockroach so we can test the hypothesis.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm just going to throw this out there. I'm talking about major news events and the highly predictable and long since telegraphed outraged reaction of the progressive base now in progress.

You are talking about imaginary right wing conspiracies and cockroaches because you have nothing else.

It wasn't that long ago that giving the DNC chair to progressives was presented as proof of a better smarter party and progressives should shut up because they got their way. Now giving it to a candidate introduced late in the piece purely to prevent a single win by progressives is meaningless and "right wing trolls" should shut up. Oh. And cockroaches. Because apparently that rams it home.

You guys are sliding down a slope. You have a problem. You need to get a grip.
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Mechalich
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The victory by Perez over Ellison does represent the continued dominance of the establishment branch of the democratic party, but it does so only in a very minor way. DNC chair is not a policy oriented position, it's a purely political one about rallying the party. At the moment that means fighting Trump today, tomorrow, and every day in every possible place. Policy disagreements are relatively marginal. Besides this is not a position high in public notoriety - people only knew about Wasserman-Schultz because she was so terrible at the job. As long as Perez fights hard and gets candidates out there, people will forget about this.

The immediate appointment of Ellison as deputy chair shows that Perez understands the need for unity - which the party absolutely needs. Yes the democrats need to run more truly progressive candidates in many areas - especially the Rust Belt - but they also need to defend the traditional candidates they have in place in many areas and even run new establishment types in places where that is suitable.

There are a number of fairly conservative democrats out there, especially in the Senate up for reelection in 2018 and the party has to hold on to them. For example, Heidi Heitkamp won a Senate seat in North Dakota in 2012 by a margin of 3000 votes. She's not all that liberal compared to most other democrats, she's against any gun control, and she's awfully cozy with the oil and gas industry, but she's a vote in the Senate the Democratic Party cannot afford to lose.

Mathematical realities for 2018 mean the Democratic Party flipping the Senate would be a major miracle, but for it to happen they have to retain every seat, including Indiana, Missouri, Montana, North Dakota, West Virginia, and Wisconsin, while somehow winning in Arizona, Nevada, and...and...shit. The third most vulnerable Republican Senator up in 2018 is potentially Ted Cruz. If you think a Progressive has any chance of winning in Texas, well, I suppose anything is possible in the Trump era.
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PL is going to feel the way about the Democratic party that Fox News and Breitbart tell him to feel. He is in fact a perfect case study on the failure of the U.S. progressive wing; too many of them vote based on tribe, not policy, and a substantial portion of their tribal identity is being shaped by conservative propaganda narratives that exclude other Democrats because the goal is for Democrats to lose elections. The fact is that the people complaining about Perez cannot name a single thing he's done during his career and cannot tell you what policies he stands for and also don't care. The media calls him establishment, and the establishment are the bad guys, and that is as deep as the reasoning goes. Basically, they vote like Republicans ("my guys are the good guys; if they weren't good guys, they wouldn't be my guys!"), except unlike Republican voters they haven't been tamed by a massive propaganda machine; they get their messaging from an unsympathetic centrist media (at best) and conservative publications dressed up as anti-establishment progressivism (at worst). Obama came out of nowhere and said "hope!" into a microphone and they creamed their pants. Hillary Clinton moves the party to the left, and then does so again when Sanders challenges her to, and they abandon her. It is completely tribal, and exactly as incoherent and destructive as that implies.

Ha! Jokes on them! Progressivism is dead for generations and we're all fucked!


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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The argument that it is a minor neutral functionary position is... not great. Basically it's wrong in the first place because actually it IS kind of important and it's neutrality has been thoroughly compromised by two running disgraced factional partisan chairs working for the same wing that specifically recruited the new guy in order to defeat Ellison. So however minor or neutral it was it stopped being that way the moment the DNC email leaks publicly proved otherwise.

But even so, lets say it was genuinely minor. Then why not just let the progressive wing have this. The base has been really riled up on this one, getting a win on it would have satisfied them a great deal. If the position was genuinely a minor thing then it was a damn cheap way to energize and maintain that important party base. All that the establishment had to do was literally nothing they actually actively had to recruit Perez and push him into the race late and put a great deal of effort into stopping the base from getting what they wanted.

It's a strong signal on where the party is going and how they plan to get there. They had a chance to demonstrate their priorities and they demonstrated that they continue to value utterly quashing the power of the actual left over winning back voters from the left. This is a trend that will continue. It will not end well.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Chamomile wrote:
Quick, Koumei, draw us a picture of a dying cockroach so we can test the hypothesis.


To be honest, I first read Shrapnel's comment as "a flying cockroach", so I was going to just find those pictures where students absolutely not doing things at the behest of Putin unleashed helicopter dildo drones against his opponent. And just say "Oh, cockroach, my bad."

Those were good times, when he was just throwing dicks at his opposition and taking his shirt off to wrestle bears at every opportunity, instead of choosing US presidents.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I almost want to make a Dead Cockroach account, a la Ant, but I don't recall how the whole Ant thing went over with Glorious Mod FBMF
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In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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erik
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I searched for dying cockroach and was gifted with youtube videos of people laying on their back with their limbs flailing. I guess it's an exercise routine.

Back OT. I was initially expecting Trump to slowly/quietly purge and replace all the agencies so there'd be nobody to stop him from destroying the government when he really got to work. Nowadays I vacillate between relief that he is going too quickly in his work to destroy America and it is going to backfire hard as there is a lot of institutional momentum, versus a fear that maybe it won't backfire and fail such that instead he's wrecking things as effectively as possible by going full tilt.

My concern is I don't know what he could do that is actually frightening enough to make Trump voters change their tune? Would they turn if he censored the press? Probably not. If he got us into a war with a nuclear power? Probably not. If he plunged us back into a great recession? Probably not. I just don't know.
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Mechalich
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

erik wrote:

Back OT. I was initially expecting Trump to slowly/quietly purge and replace all the agencies so there'd be nobody to stop him from destroying the government when he really got to work. Nowadays I vacillate between relief that he is going too quickly in his work to destroy America and it is going to backfire hard as there is a lot of institutional momentum, versus a fear that maybe it won't backfire and fail such that instead he's wrecking things as effectively as possible by going full tilt.


Trump has actually just left the agencies empty. If you look at his listing of political appointments and scroll past the actual cabinet secretaries you see blank space after blank space for pretty much every position like Deputy Secretary or Under Secretary and most of the positions that are filled are holdover appointments like James Comey. This isn't a case of the Senate holding up appointments, Trump just hasn't nominated anyone for most of these positions.

The overall effect of this is unknown - since no one has done this before. A lot of these positions are currently filled by 'acting' officials who don't have the authority to make any real changes, which means the probable effect is paralysis under ordinary conditions and chaos in a crisis.

The initial travel ban roll out happened this way, and DHS has empty spaces where it should have 4 Under Secretaries, a FEMA Administrator, and a Coast Guard Director. At a level down from that, Customs and Border Protection, which was the agency that was responsible for implementing the travel ban, is operating under an Acting Commissioner, since the most recent Commissioner, Gil Kerlikowski - an Obama appointee - has not been replaced.

Unless and until Trump fills these positions institutional momentum is likely to dominate alongside occasional spasms of complete chaos when Trump throws some dramatic order around simply because there are no people with the authority to override the inertia of the bureaucracy and no one to effectively interpret new orders.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

DSM wrote:
PL is going to feel the way about the Democratic party that Fox News and Breitbart tell him to feel.


It's more pathetic than that. PL is going to feel about the Democratic Party the way Wikileaks tells him to feel, which is however Putin told Wikileaks to tell him to feel today. Putin in turn tells Wikileaks whatever he thinks will most benefit him, which at the moment appears to be to play into whatever narrative Fox News or Breitbart is running with at the moment.

Wikileaks is ranting about the big troubling questions of corruption raised by a popular and effective Democratic Labor Secretary becoming the Democratic National Committee Chair after his appointment ended. And they are doing that because that seems to be the angle that far right orginizations are taking to try to split up the Left at the moment and they are so heavily infiltrated by international hard-right groups that they are basically a mouthpiece for international fascism. And PL is parroting that line because he is very stupid and gets his information from that particular brand of heavily infiltrated anarcho-bro.

But keep in mind that PL is a turducken of puppetry, where the hands up his ass are themselves puppeted by hands up other asses. And while at the moment, that means he is ranting whatever inane thing the Trumpists have come up with to try to fracture anti-Trump resistance, that will only hold as long as the United Russia party feels that it increases the sphere of influence of Russia to have Trumpists expand their power in the United States. If Trumpism ever became a threat to Russia, PL would almost immediately start supporting the resistance to Trump.

-Frank
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
PL is going to feel about the Democratic Party the way Wikileaks tells him to feel, which is however Putin told Wikileaks to tell him to feel today.

That accusation REQUIRES you to claim that the DNC email leaks are actually fraudulent propaganda IS that your claim or are you a lying piece of shit?
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PhoneLobster wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:
PL is going to feel about the Democratic Party the way Wikileaks tells him to feel, which is however Putin told Wikileaks to tell him to feel today.

That accusation REQUIRES you to claim that the DNC email leaks are actually fraudulent propaganda IS that your claim or are you a lying piece of shit?


Or we could point out that the DNC leaks revealed none of the things you repeatedly claim without evidence that they reveal, like we have done, and then you can go right back to saying "I don't have to do your research for you, if you just read all the emails that don't provide evidence for my claims you will see that all my claims have secret evidence in the form of how much I hate the democratic party" just like the last 5 times this came up.
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SlyJohnny
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

DSMatticus wrote:
The fact is that the people complaining about Perez cannot name a single thing he's done during his career and cannot tell you what policies he stands for and also don't care.


Or we remember him as the guy from the Podesta emails who was talking about how the DNC should intervene and try to reframe Sanders as the "liberal white man's candidate", so that Clinton would win, which is an outcome he wanted because he's as soft on banks as she is/would've been?

Anyway, good luck telling progressives to go fuck themselves and then bitching about their lack of loyalty to the party when they don't vote in droves, I'm sure that'll work out great.


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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

When does the "Hillary Clinton is soft on banks" thing die? I mean, she's literally never done anything "soft on banks" ever, and now she never will. So aside from a completely unfounded belief that having taken some speaking fees means that some banks owned her soul and she would have repealed Dodd Frank, what actual evidence for this stupid waste of space claim is there?
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Shiritai
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

SlyJohnny wrote:
Or we remember him as the guy from the Podesta emails who was talking about how the DNC should intervene and try to reframe Sanders as the "liberal white man's candidate", so that Clinton would win, which is an outcome he wanted because he's as soft on banks as she is/would've been?


That never happened, and if you had actually read the fucking emails, you would know that.

For your convenience, here's the email that shitty "news" sites were citing when they fed you that particular lie.
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hey, remember when I pointed out that none of the people bitching about Perez knew a single fucking thing about the policies he supports? Yeah, called that shit, didn't I? The only thing Tom Perez has done vis a vis financial regulation is the fiduciary rule which, if Trump hadn't "temporarily" blocked it, would have stopped tens of billions dollars of what is essentially a legal form of theft from American's retirement funds. Soft on banks! Hillary Clinton, meanwhile, was advocating a crackdown on mortgage lenders, derivatives, rating agencies, and shadow banking (you know, all the things that gave us the subprime mortgage crisis) back in 2007. She sponsored bills to that effect while senator. Soft on banks!

Kaelik wrote:
When does the "Hillary Clinton is soft on banks" thing die?

Never. It is never going to die. That would require the media people consume to make accurate, good-faith observations about the world we live in, and literally 0% of the media does that.

It's time to accept that the media has failed and politics has devolved into fact-free tribalism on both sides.

Conservatives know Democrats are Wall Street whores because Fox News and Breitbart tell them so. The two parties' support for/opposition to specific regulations is simply never mentioned, or the effects of those regulations are misrepresented, and inconvenient facts like Trump's cabinet being a who's-who of powerful bankers simply don't get mentioned, and convenient facts like an Obama appointee being a Wall Street insider are fabricated out of thin air. There were seriously ads in the 2008 presidential race blasting Obama for supporting TARP. You know, that thing John McCain also supported. Conservatives just straight up an invented an alternate history for Timothy Geithner, Obama's Treasury Secretary, in which he had worked at Goldman Sachs. He had literally never worked in the private financial sector, but the fact that he had became such "common knowledge" that he was questioned about this fictional background during a committee hearing.

Progressives know Democrats are Wall Street whores because whatever dubious fucking "progressive" rags people read tell them so. That financial regulation enjoys broad support in both word and deed from mainstream Democrats is simply never mentioned (exactly as conservative media does), and the effects of those regulations are misrepresented (exactly as conservative media does), and inconvenient facts are ignored (exactly as conservative media does), and convenient facts are fabricated slightly less often because they haven't realized they're conmen yet and that's the line they need to not cross in order to be able to sleep at night.

And they are doing this for the exact same reason Republicans do it; they want to beat Democrats in elections. Different elections, sure; primary instead of a general, but that is exactly what the goal is. I mean, let's look at coverage of the DNC race from the perspective of the Sanders wing of the party. Specifically, by looking at the stupid shit that comes out of Sanders' mouth:
Sanders wrote:
We need a Democratic National Committee led by a progressive who understands the dire need to listen to working families, not the political establishment or the billionaire class.

Sanders wrote:
I say we go forward and create a grassroots party which speaks for working people and is prepared to stand up to the top 1 percent. That’s why we have to support Keith Ellison.

Tom Perez is a corporate whore of the 1%! That's why he supports increasing and indexing the minimum wage! And expanding overtime eligibility! And tried to do hilarious trolly shit like make corporations publicly disclose the anti-union propaganda they so frequently disseminate to their employees! It's like the opposite of tough love. Gentle hate? I fucking despise workers and unions, so I'll do nice things for them passive aggressively.

Tom Perez is a fucking progressive! I don't mean that in the sense that Democrats are more progressive than Republicans, ergo. I mean that in the sense that Tom Perez is an actual fucking progressive. He has never held congressional office, but if he had, he very likely would have earned a DW-nominate score to the left of Clinton's - who was already among the leftmost half of congressional Democrats (and to the left of Obama)! Running Clinton at fucking all was a step forward for progressives. Pulling her and the party platform further left from there during the primary was a step forward from that. Getting Tom Perez as DNC chair is a step forward from that!

But guess fucking what? Tom Perez backed Clinton, and Keith Ellison backed Sanders, which means Tom Perez is a corporate whore and Keith Ellison is the One True Progressive. Sanders isn't fighting to pull the party left on policy; he's won that battle (or it won itself, you can argue about his influence) decisively; he's fighting to install his personal supporters in positions of authority within the DNC apparatus. The only open question is whether or not he understands it's a personal powergrab at the cost of the progressive movement or if he genuinely thinks everyone who has ever personally opposed him is too corrupt to possibly be a genuine progressive.

The rhetoric Sanders uses is so consistently harmful to the democratic party and so increasingly blatantly bullshit that I keep expecting to wake up one day and read that he has creepy Jill Stein-esque connections to Russia and for everything to suddenly make sense, but there's no sign of it in his stances on Russia.


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SlyJohnny
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

DSMatticus wrote:
Words


I admit that I've prematurely formed an opinion on this that is partly emotional and partly motivated by opinions I've heard from the Sanders camp and not yet looked into or thoroughly factchecked. You're right that I am not familiar with Perez's positions on issues. I'll chalk this one up to "not close enough to the issue to have an informed opinion".
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Hiram McDaniels
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

DSMatticus wrote:
Hey, remember when I pointed out that none of the people bitching about Perez knew a single fucking thing about the policies he supports? Yeah, called that shit, didn't I? The only thing Tom Perez has done vis a vis financial regulation is the fiduciary rule which, if Trump hadn't "temporarily" blocked it, would have stopped tens of billions dollars of what is essentially a legal form of theft from American's retirement funds. Soft on banks! Hillary Clinton, meanwhile, was advocating a crackdown on mortgage lenders, derivatives, rating agencies, and shadow banking (you know, all the things that gave us the subprime mortgage crisis) back in 2007. She sponsored bills to that effect while senator. Soft on banks!


Just downloaded the episode of the Ezra Klein Show podcast where he interviews Tom Perez. I'm looking forward to listening to it because Klein is a huge wonk and loves to get deep into the weeds with policy. I listened to the episode with Keith Ellison awhile back and I felt like I came out with a good grasp of his strategies for turning out the vote.

I should mention though, that I also listened to Klein's interview with Grover Norquist where he failed to call him a lying goddamn liar.
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, apparently Jeff Sessions was also talking to Russia during the campaign, and lied about it during his confirmation hearings. I wonder if he's out like Flynn, or if he digs in. Either way, that's a story that keeps getting worse for Team Orange.
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Starmaker
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Either way, that's a story that keeps getting worse for Team Orange.

This is a story that keeps getting worse for the US (and the world). Team Orange will be fine. The last cockroach crawling on the nuclear-blasted Earth will wear a tiny MAGA hat.
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Well, apparently Jeff Sessions was also talking to Russia during the campaign, and lied about it during his confirmation hearings. I wonder if he's out like Flynn, or if he digs in. Either way, that's a story that keeps getting worse for Team Orange.

The quote I heard from him, he said that he didn't meet with Russia for the campaign, although, he didn't disclose the two meetings, either. So while he didn't tell the whole truth, he doesn't have the stain of actually lying, or misleading the Vice President. As far as I can tell, Flynn was forced to resign for embarrassing Trump, not for what he actually did.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RobbyPants wrote:
angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Well, apparently Jeff Sessions was also talking to Russia during the campaign, and lied about it during his confirmation hearings. I wonder if he's out like Flynn, or if he digs in. Either way, that's a story that keeps getting worse for Team Orange.

The quote I heard from him, he said that he didn't meet with Russia for the campaign, although, he didn't disclose the two meetings, either. So while he didn't tell the whole truth, he doesn't have the stain of actually lying, or misleading the Vice President. As far as I can tell, Flynn was forced to resign for embarrassing Trump, not for what he actually did.


While sessions will definitely stick around despite perjury, what he actually said was "I have been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign and I did not have communications with the Russians.” Which clearly does not have the qualification you are claiming. He said he didn't have communications. Period. But you know, he did.

I mean, if I say "I have been called a Clinton Supporter, but i did not meet with Hillary Clinton" would you buy that I was saying I only hadn't met with her as a supporter, and that in fact we have lunch every other tuesday as personal friends as "oh well it's not a lie"?
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I missed that one. There was another line he said, when pressed, where he added the qualifier "for the campaign". But yeah, that quote you provided is definitely a lie.
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Pence used private email as governor, and was hacked! He even discussed security!

I am certain, given their hatred of such things, that the GOP politicians and voters will move quickly to lock him up.
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