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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's like they don't trust Skarsgård to be as effectively creepy as Tim Curry, which, okay, fair enough.
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I muon'd a proton and my physics had a sad.
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Leress wrote:
Stahlseele wrote:
And now stephen kings it . .
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/08/16/pennywise-costume-stephen-king-it-movie


The new design for Pennywise seems to miss the point of IT being a clown.


I read It not too long ago. I was struck by how damn canny It is. It can read and write and drive, knows how to crack jokes or seem normal, even friendly, and hang out in crowds without being marked as more than a clown. The clown look is Its most common method to lure kids in close, make them not run away so It can close the distance.

article wrote:
While this isn’t the bright and cheery Pennywise, Bryant’s version of the character prefers to camouflage himself and strike rather than lure children with lively plumage.

“It makes him almost like a shadow,” she says.


That's completely missing the point. Not just kinda, completely. That is Watchman movie levels missing the point.
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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phlapjackage
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

article wrote:
While this isn’t the bright and cheery Pennywise, Bryant’s version of the character prefers to camouflage himself and strike rather than lure children with lively plumage.

Because we all know the best camouflage is to look like a clown in the middle of Everytown, USA Rolling Eyes What an idiot, just pandering to the grimdark-ening in movies these days

Maxus wrote:
That's completely missing the point. Not just kinda, completely. That is Watchman movie levels missing the point.

Shots fired! And yeah, I totally agree about that...I mean, it's a Snyder movie after all, that's all you gotta say...
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

phlapjackage wrote:


Maxus wrote:
That's completely missing the point. Not just kinda, completely. That is Watchman movie levels missing the point.

Shots fired! And yeah, I totally agree about that...I mean, it's a Snyder movie after all, that's all you gotta say...


Well, okay. My problem with the Watchmen movie is how it took a gritty story and then added gore and shit to it. And they claimed to have read Watchmen dozens of times, and understood it in nuance, but missed the fact that how each character fights is a reflection of who they are. So Dreiberg is a biff-pow old-style Batman-esque puncher, not someone who twists a guy's arm until the bone splits out in glorious slow motion.

I quit watching right after they botched Rorschach's epiphany. It's subtle changes, but Rorschach going, "And if God saw what happened, he didn't care" doesn't have the edge and impact of "I looked up at the sky through smoke heavy with human fat, and God was not there" and the conclusion of "it's all our fault, and all up to us to fix"/
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Why the fuck would anyone remake Stephen King's It? It was a terrible movie (or whatever you call It).

I don't know about the books (but considering the track record and Stephen King's reputation, as neatly mocked in Garth Marenghi's Darkplace, I doubt it's any better) but It in the original movies made no fucking sense.

Half the shit It did was like being deliberately terrifying to children for no reason. Was It trying to lure food or fucking not? And don't get me going with the self insertion Stephen King character who was the divinely accepted charismatic leader of the group for no reason who took a break from his hot model wife to return to his old town to fight monsters for no reason and spend time with (if I recall also guiltlessly romance?) his childhood sweetheart for no reason and to suddenly declare he "just knows" the monster is vulnerable to silver alone for no reason and no one should bring a fucking gun and then PEOPLE DIE in a fight with a plain old giant spider with no notable powers other than the ability to psychically project terrifying clown effigies to scare away it's own food supply who would have been saved if they brought a fucking gun with them and just fucking shot it.

If Stephen King were a smarter author (and he isn't) I might accept some subtle hidden plot line where either the bullshit silver weakness thing was because It was just setting up to fake It's death again, or that the whole scaring food away and psychically providing secret weakness info was because for the whole thing the only thing It actually wanted was to DIE. But, yeah, Stephen King isn't that smart and It (the movie and the monster) is just THAT fucking stupid.

Stephen King's ongoing success with his routine of unplanned nonsensical third rate shite is some of the most depressingly solid proof out there of huge audiences of credulous inattentive idiots.

And fuck it, it's not like Clive Barker doesn't exist if you want the same tripe only less rotten.
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phlapjackage
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maxus wrote:
Well, okay. My problem with the Watchmen movie is how it took a gritty story and then added gore and shit to it.

I forget where, but I read a good comparison of the comic/movie, and the commenter talked about how the movie showed the actual violence in scenes where the comic only alluded to it (notably Rorshach's "birth" scene), and where the comic showed actual violence (NY devastation and all the dead bodies) and the movie only alluded to it. Guy made a really good case why the comic end-game story was much better and needed vs the movie one.

Movie-wise, one thing I hated was how much...feeling...Rorshach's voice had. In the comic, I read his voice as totally dead, devoid of any emotion. Movie voice had too much emotion in it ("What happened to those times?" "YOU QUIT!")


PhoneLobster wrote:
Why the fuck would anyone remake Stephen King's It? It was a terrible movie (or whatever you call It).

I don't know about the books (but considering the track record and Stephen King's reputation, as neatly mocked in Garth Marenghi's Darkplace, I doubt it's any better) but It in the original movies made no fucking sense.

I guess I need to go and reread some King - as a kid, I thought he was a great writer, but over the years I've slowly come to view him as a hack. Last year I read "The Running Man" for the first time, and it was pretty bad...especially the cringy portrayal of the black character with the horrible "oh lawdy" stereotyped way of speaking. This seems to happen in lots of Kings novels, a black character who talks like a bad caricature of a slave from the 19th century (The Stand, Dark Towers, Running Man, ?). Was it just a product of the time when King was writing to have this type of character?
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Koumei: and if I wanted that, I'd take some mescaline and run into the park after watching a documentary about wasps.
PhoneLobster: DM : Mr Monkey doesn't like it. Eldritch : Mr Monkey can do what he is god damn told.
Chamomile: Deaddmwalking... was a holy warrior dedicated not to a specific cause, but to doing battle with a single foe. With his nemesis forever banished from our shores, he goes off to become a normal denner who puts irritating people on ignore rather than endlessly engage them.
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PhoneLobster wrote:
Why the fuck would anyone remake Stephen King's It? It was a terrible movie (or whatever you call It).

I don't know about the books (but considering the track record and Stephen King's reputation, as neatly mocked in Garth Marenghi's Darkplace, I doubt it's any better) but It in the original movies made no fucking sense.
.


Agreed on that much. The movie was a hash of the book. The novel -was- better.

The book spent a fuckton of time with the crew as kids trying to figure out the rules of how It works and surviving encounters. Stuff like 'stay in groups, it can't turn into something that incapacitates all of us because we're afraid of different things.'

I mean, the groundwork and internal logic is THERE and can be figured out, and then the movie took 1100+ pages of it and tried to shove it into...however the fuck long it was.

Random bits I learned from reading the book:
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, IT is or at least was a surprisingly fluid read.
I had a 1300 pages softcover version and went through it in about 3 days several years ago.

And Maxus spoilery bit is a pretty good summary of why IT is how it is.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Meanwhile in the movie the heroic author even LOOKS like Stephen King, and I am pretty sure is also a horror author.

And there is never any indication that large amounts of what the kids or adults "figure out" is anything other than utter bullshit.

It was a giant spider with psychic powers, there is absolutely no evidence that it was in any way biologically anything other than a big bug with the ability to wildly unproductively use illusion powers.

It isn't like you could not watch the movie and wishfully choose to believe junk like "I guess It wanted to eat fear?" and "It was weak to wishful thinking... sometimes... maybe...?"... but if you ever asked "but did/was It?" every indication was that stuff was just utter bullshit the kids decided to believe (you know that time they FAILED to really defeat It) and that when It's true form and lair was seen... It was just a fucking regular giant spider so physically weak that it fell down to a minor bump from a lump of random rubbish.

Was the book any different? Was there EVER any kind of solid confirmation of the crazed babbling of children and mad adult fantasists or was the final confirmation just "Fuck it, just a giant spider"?

There are limited ways to have that story CAN make sense, and pretty much all of them require a significant rethink of what It really wanted or the competence and success of the heroes even the second time around. And if It was really eating fear itself then a story that would make sense would be very different because a creature trying to do that instead of just eat children would also not do a lot of the things It did do, It's actions were schizophrenic and inconsistent with any single diet or feeding strategy.

Unless the lair and the giant spider were also an illusion, but again, too smart for King.

It's actions play out like a monster in a TTRPG "Cthulhu lite" where the GM hadn't put nearly enough thought in and the players start asking "wait what" and the whole thing goes off the rails because nothing makes any fucking consistent sense.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In the book the giant spider is the closest the human mind comes to making sense of ITs real form. It is not a giant spider, but humans can not look at it and not go "OH giant spider!" without simply breaking down.

In the book, the actual fight was not "push it over and rip and tear apart its huge guts!"
In the book it was more of a spiritual battle of wills of some kind after the kids had read up on stuff a bit and came to an old . . . not sure if native american indian or maori shamanistic way of doing battle of the wills that is basically described as biting the enemies tongue and doing a staring contest to assert your dominance. Or something similar to that. As i wrote before, it has been years since i read the book.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So then the kids tried wishful thinking at an It that was a terrifying thing to them, and failed.

Then the adults tried wishful thinking at an It that was a terrifying thing to them, and... maybe succeeded?

If anything that seems worse than what the movie tried and failed to do. The second fight needs to be at least somehow dramatically different in what it reveals about It and the strategy used to defeat It or else the only reasonable interpretation is that It was still totally in control and still just messing with them.

I mean otherwise it just reads as "argh you will powered my totes real form, you win!" then 25 years later "argh you will powered my totes real form, this time for sure, you win!"
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PhoneLobster wrote:

Was the book any different? Was there EVER any kind of solid confirmation of the crazed babbling of children and mad adult fantasists or was the final confirmation just "Fuck it, just a giant spider"?


The book has internal narration from It's point of view. Unless It was lying to itself, that doesn't fly.

It's own in internal monologs confirm that he's a primordial creature from the Macroverse, and is older than our material universe. That he got his ass kicked by The Turtle and crashed to earth millions of years ago and is going to be licking his wounds here until he recovers enough to go back.

It's internal monolog also confirms that the kids shouldn't be powerful enough to hurt him but that they are and that confirms that they're not acting alone, but are being manipulated and empowered by someone else, possibly the Turtle or the Other, who both have reason to want It dead.

PhoneLobster wrote:

Half the shit It did was like being deliberately terrifying to children for no reason. Was It trying to lure food or fucking not?


It doesn't need to eat children, though it enjoys doing so. It's just a sadist.


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Maxus
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PhoneLobster wrote:
So then the kids tried wishful thinking at an It that was a terrifying thing to them, and failed.

Then the adults tried wishful thinking at an It that was a terrifying thing to them, and... maybe succeeded?

If anything that seems worse than what the movie tried and failed to do. The second fight needs to be at least somehow dramatically different in what it reveals about It and the strategy used to defeat It or else the only reasonable interpretation is that It was still totally in control and still just messing with them.

I mean otherwise it just reads as "argh you will powered my totes real form, you win!" then 25 years later "argh you will powered my totes real form, this time for sure, you win!"


Well, no.

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Look, PL, the book should be cheap as hell. My copy was, I got it used. It's a fast read despite everything, so pick it up, read through it, and then we can tear it apart because a lot of your criticisms are along the lines of "Well if King didn't lay the groundwork that'd be retarded" when King laid the groundwork and hit mostly the right notes. I'm not saying it's perfect or really great, I'm just saying it's not a bad read and It makes for a pretty good villain because there IS a person in there. Like, it's an evil fucked-up person who delights in misery and carnage, but It is more of a person than a monster and I think that's what help sell the creepy.
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

People don't have to waste an hour of their life reading a shitty book to criticize a shitty movie.

It's fine for PL to point out how incredibly shit the movie is, while only pointing out how shit the book is when the book is explained to him.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

"The turtle couldn't help us"
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Prak
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Looks like Fantasy Flight lost the license for Warhammer RPGs

I almost want to see if we can put together the money as a forum to buy it...
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In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In Q1 2016, there were 1577 Warhammer 40k games of their game sample size. If even one person from 10% of those groups buys a new sourcebook at $20, that's over $3,000 in profit, and the total number of 40k players on roll20 is probably at least double that because roll20 has over two millions users and their game sample size of 46,000 represents well under a fifth of those users. So roll20 players alone represent five-digit income on any given 40k splatbook. The amount for which Games Workshop sells the license would obviously have to be some amount significantly lower than the total amount of income the purchaser of the license can expect to get off of it, but that's still the kind of figures we're looking at. $12,000 income from a splatbook is an extreme lowball estimate. The Den has like thirty working and middle class active posters at any given time. Even if fully 100% of us wanted to see this happen, we'd each be putting forward hundreds of dollars in the absolute best case scenario.

Plus, what would we actually do with the line? Like, yes, we could release something that wasn't d100 roll under, but who here actually likes the 40k fanbase and wants to make a product that would appeal to them?
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Which segment of the fanbase? I mean, there's lots of fans who got ran off or they're interested in the universe but not the tabletop game. For my sins, I'm one of them. Not to mention Koumei has Dungeon Crusade, which could make for a good starting point on this: I really like the Assault-Tier and the Siege-tier divide there.
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Prak
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I actually sort of was thinking of the possibility of just putting out Dungeon Crusade with the official Warhammer license.

It'd be hilarious, at least.

Also, yeah, we could also just put out something that doesn't suck as much as WHFRP.
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Warhammer Logistics Role Play. By the Gaming Den!
Imagine the faces of everybody who ever slighted somebody on the den, if that actually took off . .
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, the current head of GW has been pretty liberal with the licensing, and FFG hasn't put out a WFRP product since August 2014, so it might even be possible.
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maxus wrote:
Which segment of the fanbase?


The segment which Games Workshop will want us to be selling products to. Alternately, whatever segment is large enough to make enough money, in the event that GW doesn't care who we sell to so long as we're selling. Either way, I am very pessimistic that we can hit that target by trying to recoup the people who got the joke and were driven off by the people who didn't.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What about the people who are loyal to the name above all else, and will buy anything with WARHAMMER(TM) on the cover?
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Prak wrote:
What about the people who are loyal to the name above all else, and will buy anything with WARHAMMER(TM) on the cover?

You have obviously already appealed to them by putting WARHAMMER on the cover, no further appeals to them are necessary.
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"Now that we've determined that up to π angels can dance on the head of a pin, how do we determine the specific number (or fraction) of angels dancing?"
"What if angels from another pin engage them in melee combat?"
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