I'm trying to get some of my PCs to start getting into spellcasting, and I was wondering how to make the transition easy over multiple campaigns.
my steps were:
1) Things playable from the tin: Barbarian, Monk, Fire Mage, Snowscaper, Storm Lord, etc. Plenty here.
2) Shadow Caster, WotC warlock, and that's about it
3) The warmage and shit. A decent number here.
4) Wizard, Cleric, etc. Not too many here, but I don't give a fuck.
[Changed as of response 3]
I'm trying to fill in the niche for (2). I'm looking for class that have a decent number of powers, but PC's need to look said powers up (from a list of something like 8-12).
Introduction to spellcasting
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Introduction to spellcasting
Last edited by For Valor on Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
Mask wrote:And for the love of all that is good and unholy, just get a fucking hippogrif mount and pretend its a flying worg.
You've probably got them already, but there's the Green Mage, Star Mage, and Geomancer from the Nippon Ichi thread. They're all in the Fire Mage mold.
For sphere-related casters, you also have the Untamed Psychic, Mister Sinister's Psion and Nightmare Seeker, and probably a bunch of other classes because spheres are easy to make and you don't need a lot else. (Obviously, that really hand Tome Community Material Repository Thread could be a lot of help here, as could just skimming through IMOI's past coupla pages.)
Also, I'm not sure if I would seriously called the Totemist, etc style of class that much less complicated than your "level 2" sequence of classes.
But, honestly, I suspect you might be overestimating the complexity of the Beguiler-style caster. As long as you're starting below like level 4, they are not that complicated at all. You could even copypasta the one line blurbs the PHB gives every spell onto a card that has all of their options to reduce book-searching time. Are your players really that attention deficit and disinclined to spellcasters? Might it be that you have just happened to find a group that is comprised entirely of people who prefer stabbing in the face to color spray-ing?
If you're really set on having "levels," then I could see it as something like this:
Level 1: Totemists, shadow casters, fire mages, etc.
Level 2: Themed sorcerers: war mages, beguilers, classes that cover the schools that never got a class but could easily be written up in like three seconds...
Level 3: clerics, druids, wizards, whatever
But, assuming that your players aren't literally rolling their first d20 with this game, you could probably combine levels 1 and 2.
tl;dr: A long progression is likely to scare players, particularly if they've convinced themselves spellcasters are needlessly complicated. Just think of an example of each class doing srsly cool shit and let them pick whatever they feel sounds most interersting, and be ready to help if need be.
For sphere-related casters, you also have the Untamed Psychic, Mister Sinister's Psion and Nightmare Seeker, and probably a bunch of other classes because spheres are easy to make and you don't need a lot else. (Obviously, that really hand Tome Community Material Repository Thread could be a lot of help here, as could just skimming through IMOI's past coupla pages.)
Also, I'm not sure if I would seriously called the Totemist, etc style of class that much less complicated than your "level 2" sequence of classes.
But, honestly, I suspect you might be overestimating the complexity of the Beguiler-style caster. As long as you're starting below like level 4, they are not that complicated at all. You could even copypasta the one line blurbs the PHB gives every spell onto a card that has all of their options to reduce book-searching time. Are your players really that attention deficit and disinclined to spellcasters? Might it be that you have just happened to find a group that is comprised entirely of people who prefer stabbing in the face to color spray-ing?
If you're really set on having "levels," then I could see it as something like this:
Level 1: Totemists, shadow casters, fire mages, etc.
Level 2: Themed sorcerers: war mages, beguilers, classes that cover the schools that never got a class but could easily be written up in like three seconds...
Level 3: clerics, druids, wizards, whatever
But, assuming that your players aren't literally rolling their first d20 with this game, you could probably combine levels 1 and 2.
tl;dr: A long progression is likely to scare players, particularly if they've convinced themselves spellcasters are needlessly complicated. Just think of an example of each class doing srsly cool shit and let them pick whatever they feel sounds most interersting, and be ready to help if need be.
Last edited by Blicero on Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Out beyond the hull, mucoid strings of non-baryonic matter streamed past like Christ's blood in the firmament.
The Fire Mage-style of spellcasting isn't what I'm looking for.
I'm trying to find classes that have a nice list of abilities for a person to learn, but only give a few abilities known. The sphere classes don't quite cut it for me because they're basically assigned spell lists, and fire-mage-style classes don't encourage the whole "reading spell descriptions" thing. However, all your suggestions are fantastic for section (2).
And yes, the people I play with ARE that attention-deficit. And I'm getting tired of having our parties consisting of 4 people with full BAB and a bunch of class abilities involving "I stab it in the face". Seriously, it makes every game so goddamn boring. I want to start some of them on the elemental mages and sphere classes and then move the slightly more intelligent ones to classes like the Shadow Caster.
I'm actually interested in something like the Tome Sorcerer, giving my players 2 paths to follow and sorcerer spells/day (or more).
Any other suggestions?
EDIT: I see you've added lots.
Here's my basic idea. There are classes that say "You can do A and B and C" which involve absolutely NO reference other than the class itself. These are nice and can be played almost straight out of the box, and actually includes shit like the Fire Mage and Geomancer (I separated these guys from people like the Barbarian and Soulborn because one uses "magic" in the classical sense that I'm leaning towards, and the other uses "magic" as in glowing swords or crazy rage damage dice, etc.)
Now, there are also classes that say "reference a few of these every level", but there aren't actually a lot of those. This is what I'm looking for; it involves making the players read a little, but shouldn't have spell lists where the basic descriptions span 2-4 pages for a single level. Seriously, that means the WotC warlock and the TGD Shadow Caster, and the Binder kind of counts. These classes are what I'm going for.
Then there's everything else. For a guy who has never really looked through the spell section of the PHB, or ANY WotC book for that matter, Beguilers and shit are actually pretty rough. My players wouldn't touch a Warmage because the 2nd-level spell list involves some 12 spells, and they don't want to have to go looking up each of those 12 spells after they hit level 3 so that they know which to use and when.
So my guys can play Fire Mages, I'm sure, but I need something in order to warm them up to stuff like the Beguiler.
I'm trying to find classes that have a nice list of abilities for a person to learn, but only give a few abilities known. The sphere classes don't quite cut it for me because they're basically assigned spell lists, and fire-mage-style classes don't encourage the whole "reading spell descriptions" thing. However, all your suggestions are fantastic for section (2).
And yes, the people I play with ARE that attention-deficit. And I'm getting tired of having our parties consisting of 4 people with full BAB and a bunch of class abilities involving "I stab it in the face". Seriously, it makes every game so goddamn boring. I want to start some of them on the elemental mages and sphere classes and then move the slightly more intelligent ones to classes like the Shadow Caster.
I'm actually interested in something like the Tome Sorcerer, giving my players 2 paths to follow and sorcerer spells/day (or more).
Any other suggestions?
EDIT: I see you've added lots.
Here's my basic idea. There are classes that say "You can do A and B and C" which involve absolutely NO reference other than the class itself. These are nice and can be played almost straight out of the box, and actually includes shit like the Fire Mage and Geomancer (I separated these guys from people like the Barbarian and Soulborn because one uses "magic" in the classical sense that I'm leaning towards, and the other uses "magic" as in glowing swords or crazy rage damage dice, etc.)
Now, there are also classes that say "reference a few of these every level", but there aren't actually a lot of those. This is what I'm looking for; it involves making the players read a little, but shouldn't have spell lists where the basic descriptions span 2-4 pages for a single level. Seriously, that means the WotC warlock and the TGD Shadow Caster, and the Binder kind of counts. These classes are what I'm going for.
Then there's everything else. For a guy who has never really looked through the spell section of the PHB, or ANY WotC book for that matter, Beguilers and shit are actually pretty rough. My players wouldn't touch a Warmage because the 2nd-level spell list involves some 12 spells, and they don't want to have to go looking up each of those 12 spells after they hit level 3 so that they know which to use and when.
So my guys can play Fire Mages, I'm sure, but I need something in order to warm them up to stuff like the Beguiler.
Last edited by For Valor on Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mask wrote:And for the love of all that is good and unholy, just get a fucking hippogrif mount and pretend its a flying worg.
if you have any DC-nerds in your group, show them my Lantern PrC.
The Will sphere has some holes, just fill them with whatever seems thematically appropriate, I'm sure you can't cock things up any worse than I did.
I've also made a GhostHell Rider class for any Marvel-dorks you play with.
I've got a spawn PrC somewhere for brood-dweebs, but it needs more work.
The Will sphere has some holes, just fill them with whatever seems thematically appropriate, I'm sure you can't cock things up any worse than I did.
I've also made a GhostHell Rider class for any Marvel-dorks you play with.
I've got a spawn PrC somewhere for brood-dweebs, but it needs more work.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
I personally like more DC titles than Marvel, but whatever.
And yeah, the Lantern class gives two spheres, the Lantern sphere, and an "emotion spectrum" sphere, Green Lanterns represent the "emotion" of Will. It needs a granted power and a few higher level spells.
And yeah, the Lantern class gives two spheres, the Lantern sphere, and an "emotion spectrum" sphere, Green Lanterns represent the "emotion" of Will. It needs a granted power and a few higher level spells.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
It's because I was raised on Avengers and Civil War. Tony Stark could be my co-worker with everything I know about him. And Black Bolt could be my next-door neighbor (which, I assume, would put me on the moon)
DC is probably just as good, but the DC/Marvel rivalry is in my blood.
Anyways... Will Sphere. I could add some things, but the concept really isn't what I'm looking for.
DC is probably just as good, but the DC/Marvel rivalry is in my blood.
Anyways... Will Sphere. I could add some things, but the concept really isn't what I'm looking for.
Mask wrote:And for the love of all that is good and unholy, just get a fucking hippogrif mount and pretend its a flying worg.
just handing you a few more sphere using classes that I figured no one else would mention.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
The Kantian Paladin is a great intro course, I think. I've never played a warrior with casting (I usually go full-warrior, but I've done the occasional wizard or cleric). The Kantian Paladin, though, really helps illustrate the difference. My level 5 paladin can spent about eighteen or twenty-four seconds buffing himself up (Bull's Strength, Enlarge Person, and Protection From Evil, and something like Eagle's Splendor), and then plow into a crowd of mooks and make a definite difference in how he handles.
http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Kantian_ ... e_Class%29
Edit: The Bone Rider in Tome of Necromancy also has some casting. It's just the SRD Blackguard list gained in 5 levels instead of 10, but it's got a few handy things on it. I like Summon Monster, myself.
http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Kantian_ ... e_Class%29
Edit: The Bone Rider in Tome of Necromancy also has some casting. It's just the SRD Blackguard list gained in 5 levels instead of 10, but it's got a few handy things on it. I like Summon Monster, myself.
Last edited by Maxus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
The Kantian Paladin is interesting, and I think I'll cut down the spell list a little before using it (to make it noob-friendly), since I've got a guy especially interested.
I just wrote up a class with the concept I envisioned. Very little to look up (I plan on asking the players--"What theme do you want?" and then handing them Spheres and Domains based on their responses), and easy to handle. It's still a little bland, though, and could use a few extra benefits.
I just wrote up a class with the concept I envisioned. Very little to look up (I plan on asking the players--"What theme do you want?" and then handing them Spheres and Domains based on their responses), and easy to handle. It's still a little bland, though, and could use a few extra benefits.
Mask wrote:And for the love of all that is good and unholy, just get a fucking hippogrif mount and pretend its a flying worg.
I'd find it best to let him play with it in a few test runs to get the hang of keep track of effects. And demonstrate first-hand how big a difference the spells can make.For Valor wrote:The Kantian Paladin is interesting, and I think I'll cut down the spell list a little before using it (to make it noob-friendly), since I've got a guy especially interested..
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
Well, if he's willing to see behind the curtain. Here's a starter pack:For Valor wrote:you sure?
Well, it's worth a shot. Things will hopefully turn out well-here goes.
Enlarge Self (Increased reach and melee damage, I believe.)
Bull's Strength (This stacks with Enlarge Person. EP gets a size bonus to strength. It's a nice tutorial on that point).
Eagle's Splendor (DCs and Saves)
Protection from Evil (AC boost and several other effects).
And, last but not least, Cure Light Wounds for getting him used to magic items. As in, explain the spell, the wands, and then how you buy the wand and just patch everyone up after the battle and thus you don't have to be the healbot inside a battle.
A quick tutorial on AoO's from casting might help, too.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!