What I got from reading Manual of the Planes

[PoliteNewb]

Okay, WTF?

I just downloaded and read the manual of the planes (3.0...was there a 3.5 version?). I skimmed large sections of it that deal with crap like the elemental planes and such, so if people want to point out crap that I missed, feel free, but from what I saw...I don't know what the fuck Frank is talking about when he goes off on his D&D afterlife rants.

In the D&D cosmology, when characters die, their
souls drift toward the Outer Plane that matches their
nature most closely. Souls that in life were lawful good
tend to drift toward Celestia, while those that relished evil
and chaos wind up in the Abyss. Once there, they enjoy
the fruits or suffer the punishments of their alignments,
eventually forgetting their past lives (this is why spells
that restore life may fail if a long time has elapsed).

This implies that you are rewarded or punished, based off your alignment. I will note that it doesn't specify who or what does the punishing or rewarding, so that's pretty ambiguous. I will also note that the idea of being "judged" by your chosen deity (or perhaps simply by the deity of the plane you end up on) is an option presented...no more or less valid than dead spirits simply becoming one with the plane or the deity. But let's talk about judgement:

Judgment: Dead characters pass through the Outer
Planes, where they are judged by their deities. Those
who fail are retained on the Outer Planes (in which case
they are called petitioners) or returned to the Material
Plane for reincarnation. Those who are judged worthy
join with the essence of the plane itself, transform into
servants of their deity, or pass onto a new level of reality
unknown to even the deities themselves.

So, assuming we accept the judgment model, dead people can:

a.) fail (i.e. not live up to their deity's standards) and either get reincarnated or become a petitioner. This probably happens to most people.
b.) be judged worthy and "join the essence of the plain" (not even sure wtf this means).
c.) be judged worthy and transform into a servant of the deity (NOTE: this does not specify an awesome servant; more later).
d.) be judged worthy and pass on to a new level of reality (outside the scope of this discussion).

So, options? Let's consider some alignments, since the base model assumes that you end up on the plane matching your alignment, regardless of what deity you worship or if you even worship a deity.

Ysgard (CN, slightly good): from what I can gather, petitioners become eternal warriors, fighting constantly (which could be a decent deal, if you like that sort of thing). Kord's hall also sounds like a pretty decent place ("never-ending banquet" and eternal revelry both sound okay), and so does Alfheim ("suffused with light and joy, and visitors cannot help but be buoyed by the happiness"). For that matter, Olidammara's Den is filled with wine and romance, and Nidavellir is about crafting awesome shit for eternity, so those are also pretty cool.

In short: being CN and/or worshiping Kord/Olidammara seems like a pretty good deal.

Limbo (CN): people who go to Limbo are either absorbed into the plane, or become gibbering crazy ghosts. Since you don't actually get to become a giant frog, Limbo doesn't sound all that great.

In short: prizing chaos above all else sounds pretty lame, unless you're already a slaad.

Pandemonium (CN, slightly evil): according to the book, most petitioners who go to Pandemonium are destroyed ("swallowed by the screaming wind immediately upon arrival"), and most of the rest are "hopelessly insane". So, not good times, really. Doesn't even seem like a nice place to visit. And even if Erythnul really, really likes you and doesn't just let you be a petitioner (to go mad or be destroyed), all that means is he lets you into his "Citadel of Slaughter", where he probably shoves a barbed spear up your ass. You might get a chance to kill some other dudes, but since they're all trying to kill you too, it's pretty much a crapshoot.

In short: worshiping Erythnul does not sound so great...I don't see anything about being made into a Vrock, just descriptions of how Erythnul enjoys slaughtering his own worshipers. Which is kinda to be expected from a CE God of slaughter...did you expect him to be nice to you? Why the fuck would a CE god reward anybody?

The Abyss (CE): this is about what you'd expect, in terms of real estate. Petitioners here either get absorbed (wow, what fun) or become Manes (wow, even more fun...say hello to no memories and maggots crawling through your flesh). After many years, you MIGHT get promoted (to Dretch, or somesuch), and you still have no memories...so all those years and XP you spent becoming an awesome wizard are still gone forever.

In short: being CE sucks. You might think Graz'zt or somebody will make you into a Balor, but it sounds pretty tough to get even an entry-level demon position emptying Demogorgon's chamber pot.

Carceri (NE): Carceri is, quite literally, a giant prison, and (almost) all the people in it, including petitioners, are prisoners. They can live in "miserable, sand-filled pits, dug by hand" on Minethys, or the vast swamps of Orthrys, or the fetid stinking jungles of Cathrys, or other equally cheery places. I think the worst is probably Agathys, where you spend eternity half-frozen in the ice. I'm not sure what Nerull does with petitioners, but it seems like most of them are knicknacks or wall ornaments.

In short: this plane sucks even worse than most.

Grey Waste (NE): welcome to apathyland. This plane actually has fair detail on what happens to people who come here after they die. Most of them become grayish ghosts who lack even voices and solidity. Even "particularly selfish or malicious" people just get made into larvae, and become a form of living currency for Night Hags. Most of THOSE get eaten or used as a spell component by a yugoloth or something, and only "the rare lucky larva" is promoted to a lower form of fiend...at which point you can look forward to licking some stronger fiend's asshole for a couple of centuries to work your way up the fiendish corporate ladder.

In short: once again, being evil sucks. Noticing a trend here?

Gehenna (NE): while it seems like a sucky place to live, petitioners don't actually have it super-bad here...they're relatively free-willed, and can even traverse layers. It does say that "they're looking for the ultimate exercise in free will, though they are destined never to find it". Not sure what that's supposed to mean, but it sounds like frustration, not fulfillment. There's stuff to do (even a giant black market), but you could also end up as a living contract, with magic runes burned into your skin, strung on chains in a "parallel line of agony". So again, pretty much a crapshoot.

In short: probably one of the better places to go, if you're evil...and that's not saying much.

Nine Hells (LE): you all know what this place is like...it's hot, and people carry pitchforks, and lots of them have horns and tails. Hell can actually be pretty decent if you're a powerful mortal...less good if you're a dead person. Petitioners are either soul shells ("ghost-white shades, shells of their mortal forms, which devils cruelly mold and shape into twisted, agonized forms of horror") or lemures (mindless, "revolting blobs of molten flesh"). I guess if you're good (er, evil) enough to be a lemure, and you survive being a shock trooper in the blood war, you might eventually get promoted...but as usual, it's a long hard road.

In short: if you've got patience, you could maybe work out okay being LE. Pretty risky, though.

Acheron (LN, slightly evil): eternal warfare...sounds a little like Ysgard, but less cheery. If you're LN and like killing, you could do okay...it says revolutionaries and terrorists end up as leaders here; but then, it also says that mutiny and madness bring down even the strongest leaders eventually.

In short: not the worst, but you could do better. Worshiping Wee Jas sounds like a terrible deal: she tests you, and "none ever pass her exams", and failure means she kills you. Again. Wow, how awesome. Am I missing something?

Mechanus (LN): seems mostly pretty boring, and full of constructs. Petitioners seem to have some degree of free will, but by definition lack individuality, so who knows what they do with it. It says some don't even do anything, for fear of misinterpreting their instructions.

In short: you could have a decent afterlife here, if you get into one of the good places like the Fortress of Disciplined Enlightenment. Hey, it's better than Acheron.

Arcadia (LN, slightly good): seems pretty okay...most people become Einheriar, who are pretty much like they were before, only better ("more healthy and robust") and fanatical about the common good (definition, please?). Basically, you get to be Supercop for eternity, which is not that bad a deal, if you like law and order.

In short: best I'm seeing for a LN person.

Celestia (LG): terrain-wise, not so great...you start in the surf and have to climb a giant mountain to get anywhere. I guess it's supposed to teach you something. Most petitioners, though, are Lantern Archons...which it says are "graced with knowledge and power". Other archons treat you like a child, "forgiving your errors and guiding you on paths of virtue".

In short: not a bad place to live...hell, even if you're evil! The book describes a CE wizard who's trying to reform, and the planetars haven't busted his ass out of there yet.

Bytopia (NG, slightly lawful): nice neighborhood, and at the worst you get to be a gnome. How bad can it be? Dead people here get to spend time "pursuing order at a leisurely
place, satisfying curiosity, and otherwise enjoying themselves
at their work". Sounds better than climbing the heavenly mountain, to me, but then I'm lazy.

In short: this is the place I'd want to go when I die.

Elysium (NG): nice landscape, doesn't actually say much about what you do here, aside from kicking the ass of evil invaders. Pelor lives here, but it doesn't say much about what (if anything) he does to or for his worshipers.

In short: this is where you build your vacation condo.

Beastlands (NG, slightly chaotic): nice woodsy place, where you get to live a simple life "of harmony with the other creatures of the plane", and eventually become an animal (or a furry, maybe), over the course of centuries.

In short: sounds okay, if you're a furry. If there's an option to avoid growing fur and fangs, probably a great place to live.

Arborea (CG): flowers and fruit at the same time, "wilderness and loveliness in one package". I guess if you come here you're either an elf or one of the "bacchae", wild drunken dudes. Maybe there's an option to become an elf if you don't drink, I dunno. You get to be either a scout/warden forever, or a lush. Either could be good, if that's the sort of thing you like.

In short: good deal for elves; okay deal for everybody else.

Outlands (N): a wilderness sort of place, you get to be a pretty normal person and live your afterlife minding your own business. It says you can seek new lands, seek a deity you can believe in (and presumably, migrate to their place), or just be happy where you are.

In short: since it gives you considerable freedom over your own destiny, sounds pretty good.

So, what did we learn?

1.) Evil people get the shaft. I'm serious, nowhere does it describe an evil person getting judged by an evil deity and being rewarded. The BEST deal they can get is having a chance at working their way of the fiendish totem pole, which isn't easy and doesn't sound fun to me.

2.) Good people get it pretty good. I don't see anything about becoming nonsentient...most of the good planes let you keep your mind and free will, and even give you a pretty nice playground to spend eternity in. Compared to the evil planes, this is kind of a no-brainer, IMO.

3.) Neutrality largely sucks. Aside from the Outlands, most of the neutral planes are fairly "meh". Some aren't bad, but compare them to the good planes and you see the shortcomings.

So...if this is so obvious, why are people evil or neutral?

a.) It's easier. Straight up, it is easier to be neutral or evil than to be good (especially neutral, which takes literally no effort at all...just look out for number one). As Frank and others have pointed out in other alignment debates, to be GOOD, you need to dedicate your life to doing good things, working for the well being of others. And that's hard, and some people can't be bothered.

b.) It ISN'T so obvious. Despite everyone saying how you can shake hands with Pelor and go see for yourself how awesome/sucky the afterlife is, no, you can't. Pelor (and Hextor, for that matter) are busy...they don't shake hands with mortals, not even 20th level priests...that's why they have Solars and Pit Fiends, to do that PR shit for them. You're lucky if they take your phone calls when you cast Contact Other Plane. As for seeing for yourself...people who die and come back lose their memory, so that's out. Going in person means Plane Shift, which means a 9th level caster...the average shmuck doesn't have 9th level casters taking him on vacation to Arborea. And even if he hears stories from other folks who DO go, he has to take that on faith...maybe they're lying, maybe Celestia really kinda sucks, and the priest is just saying it's awesome so you'll pay your tithing.

c.) People are self-centered, and see themselves as exceptions. You can see this in modern society...tons of criminals commit fundamentally stupid crimes, because they honestly don't believe they will be the one that gets caught. You also see it with people who play the lottery, and think that they'll win big even though statistics tell them they're stupid. While the Manual of the Planes makes it pretty clear most people who go to hell don't get to become chain devils (in fact, damn few if any do), every LE asshole out there imagines himself as the lucky lottery winner who gets to be turned into a kyton and do rad shit down in hell.

d.) People like to justify what they want to do anyway. Nobody is CE because they truly love Erythnul and want to make him happy. Nobody says, "man, I'm not really a fan of killing puppies, but if I do enough of it I'll please Eyrthnul and he'll reward me". People are CE because they like chaos, and also evil. Mainly, they like being sociopaths with poor impulse control. That's who they are. So when they hear there's a divine being just like them, they think "Awesome! I can't wait to meet him! We'll be best buds!". And then they get to Pandemonium, and when they meet Erhthnul, he laughs his hideous laugh and kicks them in the face with his giant Boots of Curbstomping, because that's how Erythnul rolls. He doesn't reward them or turn them into a death slaad or anything...he SLAUGHTERS them, because he is the god of slaughter, not "helping a brother out" or "giving people what they've earned" or even "keeping his promises".

Also want to speak real quickly to the notion that Evil people are judged by the Gods of Evil for how Evil they were, and if they were evil enough they get turned into an awesome demon.

Now, aside from the fact that the MotP basically does not say this at all (that even the most vile souls get to become slimy muck on the bottom of the barrel, who might be an awesome demon in a couple of milennia), this leaves aside the fact that you can change gods and alignments any time, and that one of the major tenets of good is that you can atone for the evil you've done. The book even specifically mentions an evil wizard living in Celestia while he tries to turn good. Forgiveness is an important tenet of being a good person, and I think that would go for gods too. So if you don't have what it takes to be a complete psycho killer, it is not a really bad deal to try to switch teams. It's harder if you ARE a psycho killer and want to try to bat for team good, but hey, you can totally do that too.

This is why again, evil gets the shaft. If you tried to be good, here's what could happen to you:

-if you weren't even good enough to get into a good plane, you were probably at least neutral enough to get into the Outlands, if you were trying to be good. So that's not awful.
-if you were good enough to get in, but not good enough to be judged well, you DON'T become a doorknocker or a lawn ornament...it straight up says that people who FAIL the judging are petitioners, and each plane spells out what their petitioners are like. Hell, if you went to Bytopia, you become a gnome, no ifs ands or buts. And most of the good planes have a pretty sweet setup for petitioners.
-if you were good enough to be successfully judged...I don't know. Early in the book it seems to imply you get to "join the essence of the plane" (which sounds kinda shitty, to me) or become a servant of the gods (which sounds marginally better)...if you're LG, the worst you get is to be a Lantern Archon, which means you can fly and shoot lasers.

Now, if you tried to be evil, here's what could happen.

-if you weren't even evil enough to get into an evil plane, you're probably in the Outlands, or maybe Acheron or Limbo or something.
-if you were evil enough to get in, but not enough to pass judgment, you suck...the fate of the petitioners in most evil planes is pretty awful, up to and including outright destruction.
-if you were evil enough to pass muster, you STILL don't get to be awesome...you get to be a Lemure or something, and work your way up. And if you think it was tough being judged by the evil gods, that's nothing compared to putting in your 80 hours a week at Dispater Corporation, where you have to meet your soul quota and suck the dick of your cornugon boss.

So: even the BEST outcome for someone trying to be evil is (I feel) considerably worse than the BAD outcome of trying to be good.

All right then, feel free to:

-Tell me what I've got wrong, and why. Ideally, provide quotes from 3.0/3.5 books.
-Tell me what other sources out there contradict the MotP.
-Tell me what the hell Planescape has to do with anything.

[TarkisFlux]

The first quote is a reference to the idea that "bad people get bad things", which just means that if you're LE you go to an LE plane and have to do LE things. And if you're low on the totem pole, you get LE things done to you until you get a chance to move up. So you do your LE things and advance in the ladder and enjoy the fruits of your LE labors while trying to avoid other people enjoying the fruits of theirs on you. You can view that as a punishment if you want, but it's really just the way life would be if everyone had your ideals for how the world should be treated. Which they do there. That's only a punishment if you don't think that's how the world should work though.

Leaving the rest for someone else. Except this: Planescape is the 2E campaign setting that most of the material in MotP was liberally skimmed from. And it was better written.

[mean_liar]

That's only a punishment if you don't think that's how the world should work though.

Punishment is punishment. It's not morally offensive if you're LE in a LE place since that's how you expect to get treated as a manes/lemure/horror-shell, but there's still plenty of punishment. No entity getting broken on a rack thinks that it's not punishment no matter how much they think there's a good reason for them being there.

[Kaelik]

Long story short, you are incredibly biased about what you think is good. First of all "punished based on alignment" is pretty clearly Christian shitting, but if you actually look at the evil planes, here's some stuff:

People who are truly chaotic are "punished" by being insane. IE, Chaotic.

Um.... Oh wait, that's already what they are.

People who worship the god of slaughter end up partaking in eternal slaughter. Man, that must suck for people who worship slaughter.

People who worship Wee Jas are tested eternally. If you actually read about Wee Jas testing, it's not because your first test is "beat this level 20 Wizard" it's because when you succeed at one test, it turns out there are more tests. High level Clerics just keep being tested until they fail, even if they never fail.

And Gehenna and Carceri are just harsher versions of the Prime basically, so what. If you are the type of person who endeavored to make the Prime harsher, that's called victory.

And finally, It describes what happens to "most" petitioners and you explicitly decided to pretend that most is inclusive of high level badasses, even though we know there are 60,000 people under level 11 for every one over level 11.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

There was references in Fiendish Codex II that refer to the fact that deities can grab their worshipers after death, and refer to the domain of Kurtulmak. There, Kobolds take their previous forms and abilities (except with the fiendish subtype) and live in packed warrens coated in blood that makes them slippery and able to squirm past each other. The book then says that for a human that would be hellish, but it says that's a kobold's idea of paradise.

[erik]

Long story short, you are incredibly biased about what you think is good.

Not a very damning complaint.

Anywho, it does seem largely that the evil planes are somewhere that an evil character would not enjoy either. Just because someone dicks over other people for their own personal enjoyment or success does not mean that they enjoy being dicked over themselves.

[Kaelik]

Not a very damning complaint.

Anywho, it does seem largely that the evil planes are somewhere that an evil character would not enjoy either. Just because someone dicks over other people for their own personal enjoyment or success does not mean that they enjoy being dicked over themselves.

No, it's an incredibly damning complaint.

If a racist comes up with a punishment of "must live with people of other races" that's not a punishment for people who are not racist.

Likewise, if the punishment for valuing Chaos over anything else is to get a +4 LA template that makes you immortal, but also insane, that's not a punishment, because you values chaos.

The evil planes are explicitly places where evil people would enjoy them, and the fact that you can't understand that blows my mind. Fuck, if you worship slaughter, endless slaughter is fucking good for you. If you worship a harsh task master who constantly demands your best and a little more, you aren't going to be upset when you get constantly tested at a very tough level.

Most lawful evil people already get dicked over on the Prime by the people above them, for every 10,000 lawful evil goblins there is only one chief, and he dicks the rest over in the same way they get dicked over on Archeron, except in Archeron, they are the major players, instead of the bitches they are on the Prime.

If you already where a knight for a Lawful Evil Wizard King, then Planar politics in Baator is exactly what you already had but better because it's more lawful, and more opportunity.

[Dean]

I think that that argument has already been responded to Kaelik: The response being, quite legitimately, that people who (for instance) worship the god of slaughter are not doing so because they want to be slaughtered. They super DO NOT want to be slaughtered. They liked doing the slaughtering on the mortal plane and now they are in a place where they are being killed painfully and they do not like it. So too would a person in hell probably NOT LIKE being in infernal unimaginable torture even if that person tortured someone to get IN to hell. Just because they pursued a concept in life does not by any stretch of the imagination mean they want that thing done unto them. In fact "Do unto others as you want done unto you" is most famously NOT the ideology of evil acts and actors. So while one could go to "Baking heaven" if one truly enjoyed baking in the service of the God of Baking for all of ones life. It would probably be lame for that person to get there and watch someone Bake for them for all eternity.

These people like doing these things, engaging in these activities. They aren't simply worshippers of the concept of "slaughter" in all of its myriad forms and supporters of it used in every imagineable sense.

[Doom]

Actually, someone who worships slaughter might not want to be slaughtered...but would accept that as a necessary part of perpetually being in a position where they could do the slaughtering.

The worshippers of Chaos gods Khorne and Slaanesh (adherents of slaughter and pleasure, more or less) don't get along. For Slaaneshi, their ultimate humiliation to inflict on a Khornite is to seduce them, make them feel (sexual) pleasure.

Note how that works: for a Khornite, pleasure is a BAD thing. It might sound bizarre, but GW has plenty of fluff on it, and it works to some extent.

Followers of Khorne even fight each other at minimal provocation--obviously, only one will get to experience 'slaughter' in a 'good' way, but that rational observation is discarded, since, ultimately, slaughter is slaughter. (Insert comment about 'no such thing as bad sex' here, but for a Khornite, 'sex' is 'slaughter').

So yeah, for me, being utterly insane doesn't sound like alot of fun, any more than chopping up little babies. But, to each his own, I guess, at least in an utterly fantasy setting.

[Username17]

Note also that D&D has good gods of slaughter too. If you end up in Valhalla you get to fight and kill and die every day. That sounds like a shitty afterlife to me, but in D&D land you can get that as your "reward" for being the right flavor of Chaotic Good.

Yeah, Erythnul's slaughter fields sound fucking awful. To me. But Valhalla is pretty much the same with the blood drenched Succubi swapped out for blood drenched Valkyries. Supposedly, people in the D&D world aspire to such an outcome.

-Username17

[NineInchNall]

And that's without getting into what happens when you die in Faerun.

[PoliteNewb]

The first quote is a reference to the idea that "bad people get bad things", which just means that if you're LE you go to an LE plane and have to do LE things. And if you're low on the totem pole, you get LE things done to you until you get a chance to move up. So you do your LE things and advance in the ladder and enjoy the fruits of your LE labors while trying to avoid other people enjoying the fruits of theirs on you. You can view that as a punishment if you want, but it's really just the way life would be if everyone had your ideals for how the world should be treated. Which they do there. That's only a punishment if you don't think that's how the world should work though.

What? How is it not a punishment to be tortured? Are all evil people assumed to like being tortured just as much as they like torturing? Just because they believe that torture is a valid life choice doesn't mean they enjoy other people doing it to them.

And yeah, I admit that the evil planes often give you a chance to advance...but that's still a shittier deal than the good planes give you, because a.) their advancement doesn't involve being tortured, and b.) the place in a general is a nicer place.
How does "evil" automatically translate to loving filth and disgusting places like acid swamps, windswept badlands, and hellish fiery furnaces? Because even if they were showered with gifts and power (which they aren't), evil people still have to live in places like Gehenna and Caina, where the real estate completely sucks.

Long story short, you are incredibly biased about what you think is good.

Sure, I'll admit that. So is everybody. But I think my point of view actually holds true for most of humanity...if you're a devil or a yugoloth or something, maybe those places are paradise, for for human beings--even evil ones--I still hold that those places and experiences described for the evil planes are pretty shitty.

But hey, I can be proved wrong. How 'bout yourself? Where would you like to go? Does going to Gehenna or the Abyss sound like a good deal to you? Better than, say, Bytopia or the Outlands?

People who are truly chaotic are "punished" by being insane. IE, Chaotic.

Um.... Oh wait, that's already what they are.

Well, part of that is D&D's fairly nonsensical alignment system, but no, chaotic (even chaotic neutral) doesn't mean insane. I believe Frank has pointed this out.

People who worship the god of slaughter end up partaking in eternal slaughter. Man, that must suck for people who worship slaughter.

Being slaughtered sucks for anyone who isn't a suicidal masochist...which is most people. Again, people always imagine that THEY get to do it, not have it done to them. The worshipers of Erythnul don't go around inviting people to stab them in the guts...they go around doing the stabbing. And on Pandemonium, the shoe is often on the other foot, especially because Erythnul himself often does the stabbing.

And Gehenna and Carceri are just harsher versions of the Prime basically, so what. If you are the type of person who endeavored to make the Prime harsher, that's called victory.

Where are these people who want to make the Prime harsher for themselves? And who says they end up in Gehenna and Carceri? People who go to Carceri are described as "politicians and traitors", "those who gave in to animal lusts", "hoarders", "liars", and "the shallow and self-absorbed". Which of those are about living in harsh places?

And finally, It describes what happens to "most" petitioners and you explicitly decided to pretend that most is inclusive of high level badasses, even though we know there are 60,000 people under level 11 for every one over level 11.

I assume that it includes everybody, because the book makes absolutely no distinction for what happens to you based on level. None. One could make a reasonable connection between being higher level and being better at being evil, but that's still an assumption. And seriously, read the book: the BEST thing that happens to you if you go to Hades is to become a larva and get traded to yugoloth, and if you're lucky get made into a fiend instead of a sandwich. The BEST thing that happens to you if you go to Baator is to become a lemure, and eventually work your way up, if you aren't killed in the blood war. There is absolutely nothing that says, "high level badasses get fast-tracked". I don't know where you get that from. Does the Fiendish Codex talk about this?

The evil planes are explicitly places where evil people would enjoy them, and the fact that you can't understand that blows my mind.

I don't understand that, and the fact that you think anyone (evil or not) enjoys being slaughtered or tortured blows my mind.

If you already where a knight for a Lawful Evil Wizard King, then Planar politics in Baator is exactly what you already had but better because it's more lawful, and more opportunity.

What the fuck are you talking about?
Things are WORSE in hell than on the prime. Definitionally, because everything is on fire. It is entirely possible to have been born a Lawful Evil prince, and spent your entire life in the lap of luxury, wanting for nothing, and having peasants put to death because they spilled wine on you. And then you die and go to hell and...become a lemure. Yeah, I'm sure that was your dream.
Even if you were a high-level LE death knight, who started as an orphan and worked your way up to 20th level trained killer...once you get to hell, you get to start over. Only instead of having whatever advantages you may have had in life, you are a mindless blob of molten flesh. And you live in hell.
What "more opportunity"? On the prime, it is entirely possible to start your life at the middle or top of the heap. In hell, you ALWAYS start at the bottom...and life as a lemure is worse than life as the filthiest beggar on the prime.

Are you crazy?

[Kaelik]

I think that that argument has already been responded to Kaelik: The response being, quite legitimately, that people who (for instance) worship the god of slaughter are not doing so because they want to be slaughtered. They super DO NOT want to be slaughtered. They liked doing the slaughtering on the mortal plane and now they are in a place where they are being killed painfully and they do not like it. So too would a person in hell probably NOT LIKE being in infernal unimaginable torture even if that person tortured someone to get IN to hell. Just because they pursued a concept in life does not by any stretch of the imagination mean they want that thing done unto them. In fact "Do unto others as you want done unto you" is most famously NOT the ideology of evil acts and actors. So while one could go to "Baking heaven" if one truly enjoyed baking in the service of the God of Baking for all of ones life. It would probably be lame for that person to get there and watch someone Bake for them for all eternity.

These people like doing these things, engaging in these activities. They aren't simply worshippers of the concept of "slaughter" in all of its myriad forms and supporters of it used in every imagineable sense.

And my point is that that's a made up idea that is in no way reflective of anything. If you worship slaughter, the chance to fight and kill forever, even if you occasionally have to die, or even if you die more than you win, is still awesome. I hate losing in Starcraft. I like Winning. But I still play Starcraft even though I lose more than I win.

Likewise, the god of slaughter. And the infernal pits are infinite, but do not feature a bunch of people on racks every five feat and no one whipping them. You need a lot of whippers to keep all that whipping going on, so yes, level 9 or 10 evil characters might end up as the whippers.

And yes, it's still hell. It's still burning, but that's totally worth it to get to fucking torture people for the people who actually go to hell.

[Kaelik]

Polite newb, you are wrong. On like, everything.

1) Yes, people totally fight other people even when they could probably lose just to have the chance to kill them. That happens all the time in real life.

2) People who like torture often apprentice themselves to other evil people who torture their minions. It happens.

3) Carceri needs wardens for the prison to. Who better than politicians.

ECT.

Personally, I would choose Pandemonium over most places and Acheron over most others. And the part where you pretend that Hell is literally just a bunch of people being tortured every second with no one doing the torturing makes no fucking sense, and I think you know that, and are only lying about it because your opinions make no sense unless you lie.

[Username17]

Honstly, Acheron is a pretty nice place. It's constantly brimming with the spirit of nationalism and you march around making empires that stand for a few centuries and then various factions tear it apart and you do it again. It's like living in Rome or something, but you never run out of iron and there aren't any barbarians - just more empires you are in trade/contact/conflict with.

Compared to Valhalla? Fuck yes. There you just get slaughtered every day for no reason. In Acheron you could literally go twenty years between actually getting stabbed in the head. The lands of Lawful Evil are in many ways nicer than the lands of Chaotic Good.

Even the deepest burningest pits of Baator are actually fairly pleasant places to be. You're a Lemure - you don't actually take damage from fire. Fields of sharpened glass are just aesthetic choices, because you're a Lemure and you don't actually get hurt by shuffling over broken glass either. Not a nice place to visit, because a foreigner probably gets hurt by heat. But that's like bitching that the Elemental Plane of Fire must be awful for the residents because it is on fire.

-Username17

[PoliteNewb]

1) Yes, people totally fight other people even when they could probably lose just to have the chance to kill them. That happens all the time in real life.

Citation needed. Generally speaking, people kill for motivations other than "love killing".

2) People who like torture often apprentice themselves to other evil people who torture their minions. It happens.

Citation needed.

3) Carceri needs wardens for the prison to. Who better than politicians.

Fiends? Who are immortal and basically made of evil, so they don't ever die or retire?

Personally, I would choose Pandemonium over most places and Acheron over most others.

All right, if that's your thing. Can you explain why you think it's better than the Outlands? Or are you just saying that to be contrary? What do you like about Pandemonium?

And the part where you pretend that Hell is literally just a bunch of people being tortured every second with no one doing the torturing makes no fucking sense, and I think you know that, and are only lying about it because your opinions make no sense unless you lie.

Hyperbole aside, it flat out says in the MotP that devils do the torturing. There's no shortage of torturers to handle all those souls...there's basically an infinite supply of devils. I also didn't say it's "every second"...I made references to working in the great Baator Corporation. I just said it sounds like a pretty shitty deal.

But hey, if you want to make the case that it's a great deal, who's stopping you? What are the awesome perks of living in hell? Just don't tell me it's "get to be a chain devil" unless you can tell me where it says that.

[PoliteNewb]

Honstly, Acheron is a pretty nice place. It's constantly brimming with the spirit of nationalism and you march around making empires that stand for a few centuries and then various factions tear it apart and you do it again. It's like living in Rome or something, but you never run out of iron and there aren't any barbarians - just more empires you are in trade/contact/conflict with.

Upon reflection, yeah, Acheron sounds okay.

Compared to Valhalla? Fuck yes. There you just get slaughtered every day for no reason. In Acheron you could literally go twenty years between actually getting stabbed in the head. The lands of Lawful Evil are in many ways nicer than the lands of Chaotic Good.

Where's Valhalla? In Ysgard, yeah, there's eternal fights...but there's also eternal party time at Kord's Hall, and eternal drinking and orgies at Olidammara's den, and eternal sunshine and hunting in Alfheim, and eternal crafting and forging in the depths of Nidavellir...and all of those (except Olidammara's joint) mention petitioners living there. So it's not like you HAVE to do the whole mindless combat thing.

Even the deepest burningest pits of Baator are actually fairly pleasant places to be. You're a Lemure - you don't actually take damage from fire. Fields of sharpened glass are just aesthetic choices, because you're a Lemure and you don't actually get hurt by shuffling over broken glass either. Not a nice place to visit, because a foreigner probably gets hurt by heat. But that's like bitching that the Elemental Plane of Fire must be awful for the residents because it is on fire.

All right, statement about how hell's real estate retracted. But the reason you don't care about the fire and broken glass is because you're basically a mindless meat puppet. Weren't you the one talking about how becoming nonsentient was such a horrible fate?

Also, there's a difference between "not going to hurt you" and "fairly pleasant". What's pleasant about Baator? From a human perspective? Because while devils and such may love it, most of the people who die and go there are humans. And while becoming a lemure makes you not mind, becoming a soul shell explicitly includes the ability to feel pain, and gives no fire immunity.

[Username17]

1) Yes, people totally fight other people even when they could probably lose just to have the chance to kill them. That happens all the time in real life.

Citation needed. Generally speaking, people kill for motivations other than "love killing".

Citation: Erythnul Cultists.

2) People who like torture often apprentice themselves to other evil people who torture their minions. It happens.

Citation needed.

Citation: Orcs.

Basically what we have is you responding to the D&D villain cultures with complete incredulity. You say that those cultures are completely stupid and no one could actually sign up for that. Well... sure. But D&D does posit that Orcs get together in huge numbers to follow cruel and capricious overlords in order to fight and die while killing totally random innocents whilst raising their last bloody fist to praise a god who asks nothing but violence and promises nothing but death. If you can accept that, why can't you accept that the reason they do that is because that's what they want?

-Username17

[Kaelik]

Once again, Devils are defined as being created from the souls of actual living people who died and went to Baator, and yet you are still denying that people who are powerful evil bastards go to Baator and torture people.

I mean fuck, you explicitly stated that going to Baator after you die results in most people becoming a Lemure. Most people. So most people are devils. And what do Devils do? Apparently torture people. But you also said that people never get to torture people, wtf.

As for Archeron and Pandemonium, personally, I've never read about Outlands, but my impression is that they don't have any large collections of people/things.

Since my favorite aspects of Acheron and Pandemonium would be negotiating the Perils of crazy people and working my way up an empire, those things are difficult without any people around.

[Username17]

All right, statement about how hell's real estate retracted. But the reason you don't care about the fire and broken glass is because you're basically a mindless meat puppet. Weren't you the one talking about how becoming nonsentient was such a horrible fate?

Yes. It's the destruction of self. It's awful and it's a fate that awaits a significant fraction of everyone who goes to the D&D afterlife. My point is not that Baator is a good afterlife, but that it is no worse of a deal to the people who strive for it than Bytopia is for the people who strive for that.

Also, there's a difference between "not going to hurt you" and "fairly pleasant". What's pleasant about Baator? From a human perspective? Because while devils and such may love it, most of the people who die and go there are humans. And while becoming a lemure makes you not mind, becoming a soul shell explicitly includes the ability to feel pain, and gives no fire immunity.

You're right. As a petitioner (who are the minority in Baator since most of the residents are Devils (MotP, page 115), you do not get Fire Immunity. You get Fire and Cold Resistance 20. It's not that no fire can burn you or no cold can freeze you, it's that you have a really large temperature comfort zone. And Baator happens to fall within it. There are little fires all over the place that do like 10 points of damage and you can just stand in those. And you do.

Because apparently you're a Hammerfall fan, and what you really wanted to do was aspire to being a bad ass while cinders fell on you from a flaming sky. We know that's what you wanted, because you were fucking praying to Archdevils.

-Username17

[PoliteNewb]

Citation: Erythnul Cultists.

So Erythnul Cultists are the only ones who wind up in Pandemonium?
I did say "generally speaking". I can totally accept that people do horrific shit. I just think they are generally motivated by more than just "man, killing feels SO AWESOME". Yet those same people can wind up in Pandemonium, where all those motivations are pretty much by the wayside.

Citation: Orcs.

Basically what we have is you responding to the D&D villain cultures with complete incredulity. You say that those cultures are completely stupid and no one could actually sign up for that. Well... sure. But D&D does posit that Orcs get together in huge numbers to follow cruel and capricious overlords in order to fight and die while killing totally random innocents whilst raising their last bloody fist to praise a god who asks nothing but violence and promises nothing but death. If you can accept that, why can't you accept that the reason they do that is because that's what they want?

Because they want more than that.

MM, p. 147

"Orcs believe that to survive, they must conquer as much territory as possible".

"They can ally with other humanoids for a time, but quickly rebel if not commanded by orcs".

"Their deities teach them that all other beings are inferior, and that all worldly goods rightfully belong to orcs, having been stolen by the others".

"Male orcs pride themselves on the number of females they own and male children they sire, as well as their battle prowess, wealth, and amount of territory".

So right there, we know that orcs don't fight for the joy of killing, or even just because "Gruumsh says"...they fight for territory, wealth, revenge, prestige, personal pride, tribal pride, and a host of other rational (and semi-rational) motivations. They want land, they want gold, they want slaves and females, and they want to see the elves crushed. They kill to satisfy those wants.

Even Gruumsh doesn't demand slaughter for slaughter's sake, and he offers more than death. He demands that orcs get theirs (i.e. everything), and all he really promises is that if you conquer people, you get to be a conqueror. It's fairly circular reasoning, but what the hell. It's better than "kill people, and then I kill you", which is what you implied.

While orcs will kill dwarves and elves pretty much any time, they DON'T kill other people randomly. Since orcs embrace slavery as a concept, they're actually pretty okay with people surrendering. They can even make alliances, as long as they feel on top.

And aside from the orcish concept of 'beatings make you stronger' that is espoused in Races of Destiny and a few other places, I don't generally see much about how orcs accept torture as a way of life. The most torture-loving orcs I see are the Eyes of Gruumsh, who self-torture to show how hardcore they are. And the fact is...they're specifically NOT the norm. Because they're hardcore.

[PoliteNewb]

I mean fuck, you explicitly stated that going to Baator after you die results in most people becoming a Lemure. Most people. So most people are devils. And what do Devils do? Apparently torture people. But you also said that people never get to torture people, wtf.

No, I didn't say that.

Most of those souls take the form of ghost-white shades, shells of their mortal forms, which devils cruelly mold and shape into twisted, agonized forms of horror.

Particularly vile petitioners become lemures. Only the most evil of mortals can achieve status as lemures

And again, you're trying to make this about absolutes like "never" or "every second". I just said that if you love torturing people and don't love being tortured, Hell is not that great a place.

As for Archeron and Pandemonium, personally, I've never read about Outlands, but my impression is that they don't have any large collections of people/things.

Should have looked...plenty of people and things, even communities.

Petitioners in the Outlands are common within the realms of neutral deities, within the various portal towns, and within specific locations such as ancient libraries, museums, or crypts scattered across the plane. In general, such petitioners are human or humanoid in appearance, and they tend to adopt a live-and-let-live attitude toward
other travelers.

Arranged in a rough circle about 1,000 miles from the base of the spire are a string of small communities.

Since my favorite aspects of Acheron and Pandemonium would be negotiating the Perils of crazy people and working my way up an empire, those things are difficult without any people around.

All right, I'll stop arguing with you on this score. Enjoy Pandemonium.

[PoliteNewb]

Yes. It's the destruction of self. It's awful and it's a fate that awaits a significant fraction of everyone who goes to the D&D afterlife. My point is not that Baator is a good afterlife, but that it is no worse of a deal to the people who strive for it than Bytopia is for the people who strive for that.

Where do you get the "significant fraction" thing? Pretty much all the good planes explicitly say you keep your mind. And instead of being a lemure, you get to be a gnome or a furry, or even something pretty much like you were before.

As a petitioner (who are the minority in Baator since most of the residents are Devils (MotP, page 115), you do not get Fire Immunity. You get Fire and Cold Resistance 20. It's not that no fire can burn you or no cold can freeze you, it's that you have a really large temperature comfort zone. And Baator happens to fall within it. There are little fires all over the place that do like 10 points of damage and you can just stand in those. And you do.

Whoops, apologies again. I guess Hell doesn't really bother anyone just by being Hell. Okay.

Because apparently you're a Hammerfall fan, and what you really wanted to do was aspire to being a bad ass while cinders fell on you from a flaming sky. We know that's what you wanted, because you were fucking praying to Archdevils.

But that's the thing...you don't need to pray to Archdevils to wind up in hell.

Only the most evil of mortals can achieve status as lemures, and they usually end up here regardless of the deity they worshiped in life.

I'll give you the example again of a prince born heir to a LE empire...he lives his whole life in luxury, doesn't pray to anyone, kills anyone who crosses him (or rather, has it done because he can't be bothered), and sleeps on a pile of unicorn pelts. And then he dies...and at best, becomes a lemure, and spends some time licking devil taint until they make him a spinagon or something.

You believe that's what he really wanted all along, in his heart of hearts?

[Lago PARANOIA]

PoliteNewb, if you have a god that commands you to kill and take slaves despite the fact that you're regarded as cannon fodder and you're on the bottom of the sociopolitical heap then how is that different from a God telling you to kill people in the name of suicide?

Sure, when Yahweh tells his dumbass Jews to do those things it makes sense from his perspective because they regularly steamroll other nations. Even though post-Moses Jews are astonishingly wicked/completely pussywhipped, it's still rational for them (during the OT anyway) to live in a state of continuous warfare with the beliefs they hold.

The orcs have to realize this; either they're ignorant beyond all measure, they're following Gruumsh's commands because they're so fucking scared of their God that they're willing to commit atrocities to escape his wrath, or because the orcs are totally willing to get themselves killed in order to get a chance at killing and enslaving others despite the extremely low odds of that happening.

Even Gruumsh doesn't demand slaughter for slaughter's sake, and he offers more than death.

Either Gruumsh is mind-blowingly stupid or he's willing to sacrifice his people for the sake of his ego. Only people who fetishize murder even beyond Erythnul's standards would initiate violence when they're knowingly on the losing end. I mean, even the Ravagers aren't dumb enough to mass their forces and attack fortified cities but orcs regularly do that.

So no, he doesn't. Following Gruumsh is a death sentence for someone in a bad situation like the orcs.

[Crissa]

b.) be judged worthy and "join the essence of the plain" (not even sure wtf this means).

Frank keeps explaining this, and for some reason, the person I'm quoting refuses to accept it.

-Crissa