The Shadowrun Situation

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:27 pm

Not the first, nor likely the last time this has been brought up. It was an issue over five years ago when I left. The quality control is not there, and it's not due to lack of desire or ability among the freelancers.

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:56 pm

I can admittedly understand how that sort of thing could happen. "Commanding Voice" is a pretty generic name and if you hand two separate groups of people instructions to write a magic-related supplement, odds are very good they'd both come up with it.

That is, of course, something a line developer should deal with.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:02 am

But it's Hardy, so nope . .

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:16 am

Ancient History wrote:Not the first, nor likely the last time this has been brought up. It was an issue over five years ago when I left. The quality control is not there, and it's not due to lack of desire or ability among the freelancers.

While I will say that the line dev isn't helping things, a fundamental lack of ability of their writing staff is a major problem.

When Lars wrote his section for Street Magic and made his stupid fucking alternate drain powers, I told him that they were a bad idea and why. It was an infinite power loop that required you to eat just a handful of chickens or whatever in order to get more power than a great dragon. Just by existing it broke the setting in half and did absolutely nothing that wasn't extremely retarded. I showed Lars and I showed Peter. And Lars insisted on not changing it because "This literally destroys the entire setting and accomplishes none of your stated goals" was not a big enough objection to make him not do things "his way" and neither Peter nor Rob could be fucked to intervene even when the rule under dispute was "literally destroying the entire setting and accomplishing absolutely nothing." That was not a high enough bar to overcome Lar's stubbornness or Rob's laziness.

Lars is still working for Catalyst. He's still a pig headed asshole who has bad ideas and won't change them even when people show him that they are bad ideas and run through mathematical proof that they are bad ideas with short and easy to follow steps. That hasn't changed either. Being repeatedly wrong for years hasn't given him any humility.

And then there's Aaron. We had... words... about the Shadowrun Matrix. Before Unwired came out, I told Peter that there were certain rules in the basic book that would have to change if the matrix was going to be usable. I showed him Agent Smith, Hackastack, and Infinity Mirror and I said that I couldn't even submit a proposal if they didn't allow me to change things at the fundamental level so those things didn't happen. Aaron, however, claimed that he could fix those things without changing the rules I wanted changed. So he wrote parts of Unwired and I didn't. I told him that he couldn't, and he sent me long winded rants about how he totally could, and I told him how his proposals didn't actually solve the problems and he went and submitted his crap anyway... and then he went on to write a new revision in SR4A and in SR5 and those problems are all still unsolved in exactly the way I said they wouldn't be way back when Bush was president.

The thing is: I'm done pretending that any of these people are competent. Back when I was working with them, I would try to see the good in people like Patrick, Rat, Lars, and Aaron. But the truth is that they are bad writers and bad people. I could accept people working for Catalyst because they loved Shadowrun so much that they would rather make Shadowrun better than refuse to work for someone who stole from their employees. That would make sense to me, even though that's obviously a morally troubling decision to make. But these people aren't making Shadowrun better. SR5 is a mess. It's a mess because the people writing it are of as low ability as they are of moral character. They are Dunning-Kruger victims who refuse to admit that they are wrong even when shown mathematical certainty that they are.

They made the wrong moral choice to continue working for Catalyst because they make bad choices. And then they keep writing bad things because they make bad choices. And then they refuse to accept criticism of their bad choices because they keep making fucking bad choices, that's why!

-Username17

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:39 am

Oh, also Materialization mages can now learn Channeling metamagic and possess themselves with a Materialization spirit.

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:24 pm

Longes wrote:Oh, also Materialization mages can now learn Channeling metamagic and possess themselves with a Materialization spirit.

Who doesn't like having the best of both worlds!

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:26 am

They are Dunning-Kruger victims who refuse to admit that they are wrong even when shown mathematical certainty that they are.

I keep seeing a thing in science outreach circles lately where it's super-important to teach kids a primitive model of how evidence works. Like show them a strawman version of an argument which is known to be wrong (and also sounds like a bad thing), then have them use evidence to direct them to a nice-sounding and true answer that obviously works well.

Because people who lack that underlying faith in the power of evidence, when confronted with some, they usually double down and hold even tighter to the things it proved incorrect. When hard-core religious folk claim science is a faith too, they're right in a way, the dogma lies in respecting evidence as valuable (because of all the evidence that it is, which looks like a circular argument if you don't accept natural philosophy and stuff).

Those sort of people, you show them the math that proves them wrong, they just become ever more entrenched in their original position in response, every time, convinced others are conspiring against them and trying to do them harm. They have been shown to behave more rationally and more likely to change their mind if you never present them with any opposing evidence at all.

Which might remind folk of someone who turned up here just recently. Or various other past folk that got more and more cranky in each discussion as the facts piled up against them.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:15 am

Which is good when you can without question give the mathematical proof.

When you take the wrong problem, rephrase it incorrectly or tinker with the numbers, their source or their definition, you can get a sound mathematical proof of a wrong fact.

Take energy debates for example: you can get two good peer-reviewed independent researchers who'll give you contradicting mathematical proof about whether or not it's possible to fulfill the need for energy with sustainable energy alone.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:11 am

No, Blade. You're mistaking lies for evidence. There is totally a big ball of scientific method you have to use to come to useful answers with evidence, and people will tell lies instead, but I'm not talking about that.

I mean some people will understand the theories, see the evidence, and that will cause them to more rigidly oppose the more thoroughly proven theory. It's a thing. They're not being fooled or lied to, they're just opposed to the whole concept that evidence can ever have good outcomes at a very instinctual level.

So if they are sort of wavering between scenario A and scenario B, and you provide good evidence for B, they will begin to more strongly believe A. There are people who do that in life, or so I have read and do agree with by reflection on personal experience.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:28 am

A magician with Body 3 casts Improve Body Force 3 spell, and increases his body to 6. He then casts Shapechange to turn into a bear. What happens now?
-His new body score makes him unqualified for Improve Body 3, does the spell drop?
-If the Improve Body drops or if the magician stops sustaining it, does he stay in the bear form? Body 3 makes him unqualified for it.

Beaumis · Post by **Beaumis** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:16 pm

The Shapechange spell speaks of a "base body rating" in both 4th and 5th edition. I would think that means you can't change into a bear in the first place because you don't have the required body. In other words, only your base attribute, not the augmented score determine what you can change into.
I'm assuming a bear has a body of 6+ because I can't find the actual stats.

If your body changes, the spell would drop because the prerequisites are no longer met.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:30 pm

So, remember how SR5 has wireless bonuses to promote the online behavior to allow hackers do shit in combat? WELL FUCK MAKING DECISIONS!

INTERNAL ROUTER
Using the body’s internal neural network as “wires,” the internal router allows the user’s cybernetics to communicate with one another as if they were wirelessly connected and, if expanded via a datajack or similar broadcast-enabled piece of cyberware, with the rest of the user’s gear.
This allows the use of some wireless functionality, such as the quick-loading function of a smartgun or the engagement of a smuggling compartment, but not those that require an outside network or similar function, such as skillwire downloads.

And here's how a dev defends it:

Note that while it lets your toys talk to one another, there are certain features it can't emulate (For example, you gotta go Wireless if you want to buy a new Activesoft from Horizon and download it). It's not "Immune to all Hacking fo-evah".

There are some people complaining that it goes against the 5th ed spiit of Hackers going "off-script" in a fight, but, the world has to evolve. Just as Megacorps went "We probably shouldn't have our sensitive data on networks where our R&D is directly connected to the Matrix" in 1st-2nd edition, so too has demand created the need for an Internal Router.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:34 pm

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:44 pm

And apparently the current metaplot is that an AI is possessing all nanotechnologies (which is why nanotats are now 12F), which in turn possess humans and spread via WiFi. These gestalts are called Monads, and they've already made a demand to the corporate court. They want Mars to themselves.

Fucks · Post by **Fucks** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:01 pm

The current metaplot is crap and supposedly resolved in Boston Lockdown, but as with much of SR5 metaplot, it's a bad resolve.

Same goes for any "design" decision regardind Wifi... or magic... or the matrix. .. or everything.

This edition is a total loss.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:02 am

How are its sales compared to previous editions

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 3:08 am

on a scale from 1 to even I can't right now. Is this from the same people who were against the idea of brainhacking in SR (after it was already a thing with the whole Deus AI storyline)?

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:14 am

Longes wrote:

Cyber Penis and Vagina was in 4th edition.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:38 am

Ah, but did they have wireless bonuses? I don't think so!

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:41 am

Longes wrote:Ah, but did they have wireless bonuses? I don't think so!

Curiosly looking at the picture, only Breasts have one. P's and V's not?

vagrant · Post by **vagrant** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:40 am

I can think of multiple reasons to have a wireless bonus on my genitalia of choice! In fact, I can get myself a genital wireless bonus right now!

Ghremdal · Post by **Ghremdal** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:13 am

To say nothing about having a "Hot Spot" of your very own.

JesterZero · Post by **JesterZero** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:37 pm

So once upon a time, the official Shadowrun website was shadowrun4.com. That's changed, and now it's something else: either shadowrun.com, or shadowruntabletop.com, or whatever.

The point is, when you, as a company, change your website, the smart play is to continue to hold your old domain, and just redirect it to your new domain. Even if you change multiple times, it's worth paying the (relatively) low costs to retain the domain and keep control of it, because otherwise...

...somebody else can snatch it up and start sending advertisements for drugs and CPA exams to everyone who originally followed that RSS feed...which is what started happening to the shadowrun4.com domain this morning.

Oy.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:26 am

bwaahahahahaahaha! ^^

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:15 am

At least that site loves Shadow Run 4. it's something.

FFS