The Shadowrun Situation

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Tue May 13, 2014 4:57 pm

Stahlseele wrote:why do they have hands? x.x

Because weapons? I don't even.

If anyone is curious about the oversight on the garbage being churned out at CGL just recall the environment a few years ago when things went down. Jason Hardy pulls some stupid shit, AH calls him on it and AH gets kicked out of the freelancer pool. The rule seems to be: You eat shit and chew with your mouth closed or you don't work on Shadowrun. I would argue that CGL isn't in fact working on Shadowrun anymore, but that's a licensing matter.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed May 14, 2014 9:33 pm

No, you obviously don't . .
The whole POINT of Tyranids was that they were extremely fast evolving creatures with built in weapons like claws and venom spitters and vines and the such . . there is no need for handheld weapons in the tyranid race!
the only exception from the rule would be gene stealer broodlings, or however they are called, which are basically humanoid tyranids . .

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed May 14, 2014 10:21 pm

Hands are just weaponry the tyranids evolved to battle the doorknob menace.

More seriously, think of hands as universal, plug-and-play adapters. Not only do they make self-contained, modular design of tools possible, they let you swap out your tool module on the fly. Evolution gave them to you, and look how that worked out.

Of course, the tyranid are supposed to be uber-efficient recyclers through the power of MAGISCIENCE who can reuptake tyranid X using weapon A and spit out tyranid Y using weapon B for negligible time and cost, so the drive for that sort of modularity is totally diminished. And yeah, hands really don't fit the evolution-monster aesthetic. Which is weird, because they are hands down (ba dum tsh) the scariest fucking things evolution has made. Just ask anything on the planet that doesn't have them.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Wed May 14, 2014 10:23 pm

Hands are good for climbing, moving things, etc. They aren't just for tool use. Now, giving them humanlike hands is[ kinda silly.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed May 14, 2014 10:33 pm

They look cool, it's part of the tyranid's distinct look.

It also enhances the phallic qualities of their bio weapons when one hand is clutching the fluid sack and another is bracing the stiffened flesh barrels that launches projectiles by muscle spasms.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Fri May 16, 2014 3:23 pm

If phallic quality is what you're looking for, wouldn't it be easier to just attach the gun to the crotch?

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Fri May 16, 2014 6:01 pm

Hands are just weaponry the tyranids evolved to battle the doorknob menace.

I loled.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Fri May 16, 2014 11:33 pm

hyzmarca wrote:If phallic quality is what you're looking for, wouldn't it be easier to just attach the gun to the crotch?

That's already claimed by orks, you don't want too much overlap between factions.

Tho' people can custom sculpt whatever they want on their tyrannofex

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Sun May 18, 2014 5:28 pm

Bringing this back on topic (kind of)...can someone explain to me how CGL managed to score another huge license/franchise and are releasing it on the broadest possible band to great acclaim?

http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/valiant/

If they're corrupt and everything they make is shit, why is it that no one anywhere knows that, from the people who license them to make games to the freelancers actually making their games for them to the people buying up their shit by the bucketful?

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Sun May 18, 2014 5:42 pm

They wrote the biggest check?

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Sun May 18, 2014 5:43 pm

But with everything that's been said and predicted and guessed bout CGL in this 192 page thread WHY WERE THEY EVEN ABLE TO WRITE THE BIGGEST CHECK?

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sun May 18, 2014 8:03 pm

Schwarzkopf wrote:But with everything that's been said and predicted and guessed bout CGL in this 192 page thread WHY WERE THEY EVEN ABLE TO WRITE THE BIGGEST CHECK?

Considering I'd never even heard of this "Valiant" thing before, I think it's conceivable nobody else even made a bid.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sun May 18, 2014 8:11 pm

New SR5 book came out.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun May 18, 2014 8:16 pm

Schwarzkopf wrote:But with everything that's been said and predicted and guessed bout CGL in this 192 page thread WHY WERE THEY EVEN ABLE TO WRITE THE BIGGEST CHECK?

Probably because they were the only people even offering to write a check? Look, "Comics" is a big field with some big names in it. Amazing Spiderman #1 sold over half a million copies last month. But, Valiant is not the biggest fish in that pond. They aren't the second or third biggest fish in that pond. And let me tell you, the drop off from 2nd to 3rd is pretty fucking big. Every comic in the top ten circulation last month was from Marvel or DC. The Walking Dead is the first indie comic in the sales list at #12 (for Image, which is a much bigger fish than Valiant). Valiant does not have any comics in the top twenty. It only has one comic in the top one hundred (and that is a first issue with a circulation of less than thirty thousand).

Can you name three Valiant titles that have been brought back since the bankruptcy without googling? Here, I'll give you a freebie: Unity. It was rebooted last November and in April had its sixth issue. It is the highest selling continuing comic in Valiant's stable. Its April circulation was 9,351. That's not stores, that's total copies sold. It placed 194th in comics sales for April, 2014. Valiant also had a trade paperback released in April. It sold one thousand and four copies.

You can get the rights to the Valiant universe for the change in your couch. You might as well ask yourself how Guardians of Order managed to pick up so many licenses during their death spiral. The reality is that there are a lot of potential licenses out there which in the absence of an HBO miniseries or major motion picture simply aren't really worth very much. Valiant comics is very small fries. A Shadowrun book that sold as many copies as the best selling Valiant comic book would be considered a failure.

-Username17

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Mon May 19, 2014 3:03 pm

You can't trust internet buzz about roleplaying games. People will praise anything with the right branding or because they want to help out. They make excuses; like how War! was fine and you don't need a map, the whole concentration camp thing was really very setting appropriate too. Your most vocal and dedicated fans feel like they are personally friends with devs because they once traded a few words at Gencon. They feel like a team player when they talk up the latest product. As long as they aren't WotC their dev of choice are a scrappy underdog game design company, the kind of thing everyone loves to help out. They get their warm and fuzzies; if you listen to them you get a licensed turd. Everyone wins?

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Mon May 19, 2014 6:05 pm

Yeah, I know that Valiant is kind of a turd comics wise actually but still...

"Valiant has sold over 80 million comic books"

Compared to any TTRPG ever, that's a really fucking big number, assuming it isn't an outright lie. Like I'd be shocked if the lifetime sales of all Shadowrun products ever throughout every edition amounted to 8 Million books, let alone 80 Million.

The idea of CGL as a "scrappy underdog" is so fucking laughable I want to vomit blood. The idea that anyone actually thinks that...wow...they're about as much of a scrappy underdog as the conquistadors.

You can get the rights to the Valiant universe for the change in your couch

How much would that be, in real world dollars, in all seriousness? Any educated guesses? I mean I've got a lot of "change" in my "couch", what second or third rate media licenses can I buy for shits and giggles?

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Mon May 19, 2014 6:10 pm

Longes wrote:New SR5 book came out.

But it is terrible. It is known that it is terrible. Is it not a secret. Why did people buy it? Why are people buying it right now?

Someone explain humans to me. Explain psychology. Explain the RPG Market. Explain consumerism.

Every time I think I am sufficiently cynical and every time I wind up with this expression on my face...

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Mon May 19, 2014 6:23 pm

Schwarzkopf wrote:
Longes wrote:New SR5 book came out.
But it is terrible. It is known that it is terrible. Is it not a secret. Why did people buy it? Why are people buying it right now?

Someone explain humans to me. Explain psychology. Explain the RPG Market. Explain consumerism.

Every time I think I am sufficiently cynical and every time I wind up with this expression on my face...

I've bolded the problem part. A lot of people consider SR5 to be good and playable, and so they buy SR5 core and supplementals.

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Mon May 19, 2014 6:30 pm

Honestly? The RPG market is sustained by Stockholm Syndrome. He who has the license makes the game, you want to play the game you play (literally) by their rules. Many people seem to convince themselves they like it.

I'd love to see more honest assessment is places other than The Den, but it isn't going to happen. The dev base is too small and the community too insular to really create wide spread objectivity. You'll always see devs running their forums like fascists, fans running their forums with second hand fascism and people throwing elbows to snatch up substandard product for game lines that shouldn't by all rights be as popular as they are.

But saying that I'd be surprised if CGL is moving anywhere near as many units as Shadowrun has moved in the past. Mostly they are capitalizing on a weak market in general and banking on the license.

nikita · Post by **nikita** » Mon May 19, 2014 6:56 pm

Schwarzkopf wrote: How much would that be, in real world dollars, in all seriousness? Any educated guesses? I mean I've got a lot of "change" in my "couch", what second or third rate media licenses can I buy for shits and giggles?

I think I can buy a existing media property as whole at 80% to 100% of its current annual sales (turnover) figure. Licensing is more difficult determine as so much depend on sales potential.

As far as CGL's health is concerned, they dropped a year ago their BattleTech line editor and have kept this position open ever since...

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Mon May 19, 2014 7:58 pm

Like, continuing the line of "Why do people by Shadowrun?"

The group I'm playing SR4 with thinks that SR4 matrix rules are good, intuitive, not broken, and that everyone who thinks that they are hard is a retard. When I attempted to explain to them why the rules are a pile of shit, I got blank stares and "This is not a problem, because you just do (houserule) it like this." When people are talking about RPGs on the internet, they usually talk about the games they played in, and not the systems themself. Thus they obfuscate the flaws if they had a good MC running the game for them, and call the game crap if they had a bad MC. A lot of people consider nWoD to be good, and/or better than oWoD. A person I play Demon: the Fallen with thinks that God-Machine Chronicle is the best thing since sliced bread.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon May 19, 2014 8:40 pm

Schwarzkopf wrote:Yeah, I know that Valiant is kind of a turd comics wise actually but still...

"Valiant has sold over 80 million comic books"

Well... "Valiant" was a major player in the nineties. Then it went bankrupt in 2004. Then the IP was purchased in a fire sale and people tried to bring it back later. And by later, I mean eight years later, because multiple people claimed to own Valiant's intellectual properties.

Currently, Valiant has a 1% market share. If they had a lower market share, I wouldn't be able to find out that information because they wouldn't be listed separately on comichron.

Basically: think White Wolf. The company that put up impressive sales figure back in the nineties doesn't exist and hasn't for a long time. The people tossing around the IP today aren't the people who made the brand in the first place and aren't the people who drove the brand into bankruptcy. It's just some guys who are trying to squeeze some blood out of a stone that no one cares about anymore.

-Username17

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Tue May 20, 2014 5:26 am

Currently, Valiant has a 1% market share.

But like...how many multiples of the entire TTRPG market is 1% of the comic book market? Or am I exaggerating the market disparity?

A lot of people consider SR5 to be good and playable, and so they buy SR5 core and supplementals.

Ordinarily I don't consider myself much of a "social justice warrior" but...is it remotely possible to fix this?

Longes wrote:Like, continuing the line of "Why do people by Shadowrun?"

The group I'm playing SR4 with thinks that SR4 matrix rules are good, intuitive, not broken, and that everyone who thinks that they are hard is a retard. When I attempted to explain to them why the rules are a pile of shit, I got blank stares and "This is not a problem, because you just do (houserule) it like this." When people are talking about RPGs on the internet, they usually talk about the games they played in, and not the systems themself. Thus they obfuscate the flaws if they had a good MC running the game for them, and call the game crap if they had a bad MC. A lot of people consider nWoD to be good, and/or better than oWoD. A person I play Demon: the Fallen with thinks that God-Machine Chronicle is the best thing since sliced bread.

But SR5...all of SR5...is substantially broker than the SR4 Matrix rules. By a margin of a lot. And that's without even getting into the ugly corruption issue which apparently...just went away.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue May 20, 2014 6:01 am

Schwarzkopf wrote:But like...how many multiples of the entire TTRPG market is 1% of the comic book market? Or am I exaggerating the market disparity?

You are exaggerating the disparity. NuValiant shipped fifteen products in April, but 13 of those were comic books with a retail price under six dollars. That's the important thing to remember: yes these comic companies are shipping product every month, but most of that product is short and cheap compared to the shelf breakers that RPG companies are shipping.

Let's consider a terrible failure: 4th edition D&D. We know that it was a marketplace disaster that resulted in the head of the edition getting sacked every year that the edition was in print. But we also know from the Scribd court case filing that 4th edition managed to sell "hundreds of thousands" of hard backed books for thirty dollars a piece in its first year. That's more total sales than Valiant made in its last year, and infinitely more sales than Valiant made in that year (because Valiant Comics didn't exist as such during that period). And that's for one company in the middle of a death spiral.

Comics are a much bigger market than RPGs. Also, they have a much better track record of getting turned into profitable TV and motion picture franchises (although it should be noted: that is a recent trend). But 1% of the comics market is still considerably smaller than the RPG market. The RPG market is small, but it's not two orders of magnitude smaller than comics.

And if you include computer RPGs... well... in 2013 World of Warcraft's monthly revenue dropped by over a hundred million dollars from its high in September 2012. The reduction in revenue of one game that is still wildly popular and profitable was larger than the total revenue of all print comics.

-Username17

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Tue May 20, 2014 6:10 am

Yeah, my understanding is that comics themselves are not actually that big, and even Marvel and DC are much contracted compared to where they were twenty or fifty years ago. But Marvel and DC adaptations into TV shows and movies are wildly more successful.