The Shadowrun Situation

[Longes]

This is bothering me. Like, a lot. SR5 Runner's Companion portrays elves like a D&D race.
How can elves possibly have a culture built on wisdom and age when the oldest publicly known elf is in his sixties? Why are there more elves following Path of the Wheel than there are elves following Christianity, Shinto or atheists? What the fuck is wrong with this description of elven North Korea Tir na nOg?

[Stahlseele]

Because there are, in fact, elves that lived from the 4th world (Earthdawn) to the 6th age (Shadowrun) and they are partly in positions of power to shape countries to their liking. Also, they found some artifacts from that time. Same as with Orks and Or'zet. See what happened in (North?)Ireland. And they basically imported all the hipster elvish youth and indoctrinated them to feel all superior like and act like ye olden timey fantasy race elves.
Less elves following shinto is explained by the weaboo Island of Yomi. Which was basically Metahuman only Ghetto Auschwitz.

[Ancient History]

Deja vu:

http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/201 ... art-i.html
http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/201 ... rt-ii.html
http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/201 ... t-iii.html

[Neurosis]

Whose blog is that, Mr. Derie?

[Ancient History]

No fucking clue.

[Neurosis]

Mysterious. Looks like they might have as dramatic a month as I fear I'm about to have.

[Neurosis]

This is bothering me. Like, a lot. SR5 Runner's Companion portrays elves like a D&D race.
How can elves possibly have a culture built on wisdom and age when the oldest publicly known elf is in his sixties? Why are there more elves following Path of the Wheel than there are elves following Christianity, Shinto or atheists? What the fuck is wrong with this description of elven North Korea Tir na nOg?

I'm not saying this is a good answer, it's just an answer, and the answer is...BECAUSE EARTHDAWN.

And ironically...SR can't even REFERENCE the Fourth World because the Earthdawn IP is still in the clutches of Zombie FASA.

[Longes]

I'm not saying this is a good answer, it's just an answer, and the answer is...BECAUSE EARTHDAWN.

And ironically...SR can't even REFERENCE the Fourth World because the Earthdawn IP is still in the clutches of Zombie FASA.

Though I dislike opening with a bad pun, it fit best here. Dwarfs are, by far, the most overlooked metatype of this new age. They are stoic, silent, and strong-willed as a culture, and even the ever-present overbearing indoctrinations of the megacorporations have not reshaped the minds of the dwarfs who work within their ranks. It is that strength of will (not a weakness as some have said) that defines why the dwarfs are the only metatype that has not carved out their own nation. They have not felt the need to congregate and exert their will in a single place but have instead maintained a sense of unity even while separated by books, borders, and bottom lines.
But what does that sense of unity mean to them? Well, it means that dwarfs, no matter where they fall in a nation, corporation, or religion, will usually side with, and prefer to deal with, other dwarfs before anyone else, even non-dwarfs within their parent culture. It is not a matter of racism or even a sense of superiority, but instead a sense of steadiness and understanding that they all share. When working with their own, they know what to expect, they know they will be dealt with according to a particular set of cultural norms, and they know that when the deal is made or the argument is done, it will stay that way. Within dwarven culture, a deal is a deal.
Now, I know I mentioned a lack of a nation, but what the dwarfs have instead is a world. Thanks to a global Matrix and its astral equivalent, dwarfs aren’t limited by borders for their culture. They are both technologically and magically savvy. Traits that, along with their steady and willful nature, give them ways to connect over great distances. The contacts list on a dwarf’s commlink is often its largest datafile and full of connections to other dwarfs, many of whom the owner may have only met once. Or they may never have met and just got a name passed to them by a friend. This connectivity brings together nearly three-quarters of all the dwarfs in the world (with approximately a fifth of the missing members being a pumilionis metavarient). Some of the connections may be negative, such as a note pointing out a dwarf is untrustworthy or has failed to hold to an agreed deal, but through small degrees of separation, —usually less than three, never more than six—a dwarf in the larger group can be connected to another dwarf.
One of the most significant disadvantages to their insular and well-connected nature is it feeds into the conspiracy-esque view of dwarfs as hoarders of wealth. Dwarf-owned shops, especially those in less well-todo neighborhoods, are frequently targeted by the dim masses in search of dwarven gold. The urban legend of well-connected dwarfs who operate as go-betweens for illicit corporate operations and keep certain valuables, such as credsticks and electronic stock certificates, has only helped fuel these rumors. Especially when these hidden wealth caches are discovered.

[Neurosis]

As a Jewish Dwarf, I am #offended #triggered.

[RelentlessImp]

This is bothering me. Like, a lot. SR5 Runner's Companion portrays elves like a D&D race.
How can elves possibly have a culture built on wisdom and age when the oldest publicly known elf is in his sixties? Why are there more elves following Path of the Wheel than there are elves following Christianity, Shinto or atheists? What the fuck is wrong with this description of elven North Korea Tir na nOg?

It makes a lot more sense if you start thinking of the Tirs like Scientology - bamboozle the public, indoctrinate the rich (or in this case, the dandelion-eaters), and make yourselves seem like a lot more than you actually are. Plus there are references to other races from Earthdawn sprinkled through the Sixth World; the existence of Or'zet and the bequeathed manuscript that lead to its rediscovery/development is more than proof of that.

Elves are just 'special' because the current writers are fucking terrible - but they're really only following suit from previous editions, if you consider this in the context of the old Tir books.

[Nath]

From Edition One, Shadowrun fucked up with the elven nations. The authors wanted to make a plot point out of immortal elves bringing back a several millenia-old culture to establish a fantasy dictatorship. They had no idea about how it could be done, and it shows. No one seemingly ever noticed the oldest regular elves would have been 20 at the time the drive to Oregon cities started and 24 went they pushed for independence (Tir Tairngire SB actually reads that 16 was "a few years younger than the average of most elves at the time" which is not something one with vague clues about demography would have written).

There could have been a story on how immortal elves led tens of thousands of elven teenagers and post-teenagers who left their home and family to engage into a magical meritocracy with medieval references and start using lingasoft to speak Sperethiel. But that story was actually never told.

Then Tir na nOg gave a similar treatment to Ireland, with even less background because people were supposed to wholly embrace the change on the basis of ancient history. It doesn't seem like someone with a clue about how culture and religion develop ever wrote for Shadowrun on those topics.

However, Run Faster may take things to a whole new level. I'm just not sure if it is stating metatypes have distinct personality and culture traits that spread worldwide, or if the authors are just so self-centered they would never consider there is a world outside of North America they could write about. Either way it is racism-that-is-okay-because-you-see-those-are-actual-races. Because indeed all dwarves ought to have the networking gene...

My jury still's out to decide if that's more or less racist than Dirty Tricks was with its ork population figure that almost systemically echoed current african-american population ("just over fifty percent orks in New Orleans, "two-third tusker" in Mississipi, and so on...).

Elves are just 'special' because the current writers are fucking terrible - but they're really only following suit from previous editions, if you consider this in the context of the old Tir books.

Tolkien-elves are special, and so are Shadowrun elves. Conceptually, there was no reason to allow "non-exceptional" elves to get Body and Strength 6 like humans, except that elves weren't supposed to have any drawback. Even if that should mean that, for all the fluff about thin, gracious elves, there are in fact just the same amount of regular and exceptional humans or elves able to play as defensive tackle (US football) or forward (rugby).

[Neurosis]

So I just got fired from CGL, who I decided to freelance for indirectly because of this thread back in 2010-2011. Discuss.

[erik]

So I just got fired from CGL, who I decided to freelance for indirectly because of this thread back in 2010-2011. Discuss.

I'd say sorry for getting fired, but maybe not the worst thing to happen in this case.

The thread about how they weren't paying their freelancers indirectly led to you freelancing for them? Did the thread give you brain damage?

[Neurosis]

No, just huge cognitive dissonance. I knowingly became a scab when better writers like Frank and Bobbie flipped them both barrels of the bird and bailed.

It didn't make me feel awesome about myself as a person. As you can imagine. But I had wanted to write Shadowrun since I was ten years old. I saw an opportunity, and I took it. I feel guilty, and ashamed...but if I could go back in time, I'd do the same thing. It was a learning experience.

FWIW, Catalyst has paid me every cent they owed me except for my story in Drawing Destiny, which I'm not owed for for another month or so.

Also FWIW, around GenCon this year, I decided that I don't think that Loren Coleman embezzled anything. I think he just has Incompetence (Accounting). Ironically, less than a month after I decided they weren't guilty of the embezzlement after all, they fired me.

Saying that I was the only game designer on the freelancer list was not exactly prudent (although it was nowhere near the giant dis it was taken as: most of the freelancers are competent to good writers, good scenario writers, they can stat stuff...but in my stuck-up opinion that does not a game designer make. But I had no idea that Jason Hardy or his agents lurk the Gaming Den.

The more you fucking know.

Only in this case, this teachable moment cost me a job that while it paid shittily was a valuable part of my identity. I don't know. Frank and Bobbie quit. I got fired. I'd ask them for moral support but neither one is the type, I was the asshole hack that scabbed their jobs, and more importantly quitting in righteous indignation probably feels a lot better than getting fired by email.

[RelentlessImp]

Soooooo they fire people for expressing personal opinions, on a board not associated with their brand, under a pseudonym that has been, until now, unconnected to their professional life within that company?

Not surprised at all, considering AH got banned off the freelancer boards for expressing an opinion in a private chat. Still, seems a tad... childish, to me. And a bit unprofessional.

Also, Hardy, if you're reading this: Fuck you, the horse you rode in on, and the absolute garbage fire you've turned the brand into with 5E. Not a single decision made in regards to the direction 5E is going has been a good idea. Anarchy is going to be a total shitfest of terrible, because your people can't write workable rules for the fucking Matrix, which is one-third of the playspace between Meat, Matrix, and Magic, so why should we believe they can write parseable narrative-driven rules? The system has had FIVE EDITIONS now to get it right, and it's failed miserably through, what, seven iterations at least? At least earlier edition deckers/otaku could be abstracted, which is not something your attempts can even try to claim because you want hackers to be in the party but won't give them rules for operating appropriately in the same playspace.

Oh, and good job completely destroying certain concepts that were practically iconic for Shadowrun. Trog Street Sams, for one, because ork and troll are too fucking high in prioritygen and starting cash is too low even at A priority. Did nobody fucking bring this up with you? Nobody at all? And nevermind if you want to do something like playing against type with the shit you piled out in prioritygen, like play a Troll or Ork Mage.

Saying that you put out Kamagen and Sum-To-Ten doesn't fix it, because priority is in the core book and is people's first association with the new edition. New players are going to find this and quickly discover being a Charisma-based Elf Mystic Adept is the win button under the rules you allowed to be produced, printed, and published.

In short, suck a whole barrel of cocks. Sell the license, give it to people who are competent and not just good at marketing and covering up shady as fuck activities.

[Smirnoffico]

Soooooo they fire people for expressing personal opinions, on a board not associated with their brand, under a pseudonym that has been, until now, unconnected to their professional life within that company?

Not surprised at all, considering AH got banned off the freelancer boards for expressing an opinion in a private chat. Still, seems a tad... childish, to me. And a bit unprofessional.

Sooooo, if we create accounts for all developers and start posting here under their names, how many people would get actually fired?

[Username17]

Soooooo they fire people for expressing personal opinions, on a board not associated with their brand, under a pseudonym that has been, until now, unconnected to their professional life within that company?

Not surprised at all, considering AH got banned off the freelancer boards for expressing an opinion in a private chat. Still, seems a tad... childish, to me. And a bit unprofessional.

Sooooo, if we create accounts for all developers and start posting here under their names, how many people would get actually fired?

Don't do that. But probably a significant amount. During the period when I was getting fed insider information from a number of angry freelancers and company investors, Hardy and co spent a good deal of effort trying to find the traitors. I don't recall much effort to allow people who had been accused of treason to argue their case before having reprisals targeted at them. It was basically like a game of Mafia. I doubt that they've gotten any more forgiving or any less paranoid in the interim.

Remember, it takes a whole lot of dickery on their part on many levels to actually get people like AncientHistory and myself to turn on the company the way we did. People don't work for FanPro/CGL because they need the money. The writing gigs don't pay as well as the puff pieces my wife writes for Slovakian school magazines. Hour for hour you could get better pay working for Colonel Sanders or collecting scrap metal for recycling. People write for Shadowrun because they love Shadowrun or like the nerd cred they receive for writing for a name brand RPG. Given that people are willing to be a writer for Shadowrun when the most significant compensation is being a writer for Shadowrun, you can imagine that things would have to get pushed pretty fucking far before people would quit in disgust.

Now I won't lie, a big part of me leaving was simply that bullshit power struggles in the management had left the production schedule grinding to a halt. When I officially "stopped" writing, my last manuscripts had been handed in like six fucking months prior. By contrast, my manuscripts for the recent Complete Spacefarers book that I did with Bobby last week were 10,467 words. Altogether that was about one Shadowrun book's worth of writing, and I did it in a week while working more than full time with a 45 minute commute. In the time it took for FanPro to finally getting around to publishing the chapters I wrote for Augmentation (and let's be honest: deeply fucking up the cyberware upgrade rules I wrote in "editing" for no reason), I could have started and completed primary writing on two entire books the length and scope of Augmentation. When I moved to Czech Republic and lost stable internet, I realized that there really wasn't much difference between me "being" a Shadowrun writer and me not being a Shadowrun writer, so I might as well just walk away. When people turned to me to air their grievances, it was precisely because I had walked away already and had nothing to lose. I aired those grievances because I felt they had merit and also because I found the intimidation tactics used by CGL management against people who had legitimate complaints to be reprehensible.

For Bobby, it was much much harder. It's not my story to tell of course, but he was quite an invested fanboy, and walking away from it required CGL management to quite thoroughly burn their bridges with him through a long series of betrayals to him personally and to people he considered friends.

-Username17

[Longes]

In SR3, how do magicians vs shamans play out and how well do aspected work?

[Otakusensei]

Oh shit, I didn't think the current SR team was vindictive enough to still lurk here.

Am I still on the haters list? Do I need to renew my membership or something? Oh, can I republish the private conversations I had with Jason Hardy when he tried to smear AH on Dumpshock?

https://jpst.it/MFve

He's a classy guy, that Hardy. And by all indications still just as good a line dev!

[Stahlseele]

@Longes
completely different mechanics in terms of spirits at least.
bear in mind it has been, by now, literally years since i last read the rules and got to play:

very simplified: shamans can do on the spot summoning of certain domains and only have the on the spot summoned spirits around for a bit (usually untill the shaman changes the domain) and that and hermetics can summon and keep elementals by spending money on components and time summoning their elementals which they can keep around for as long as they want untill services run out.
aspected . . not quite sure honestly. don't remember anybody ever playing one in my groups to be actually . .

[Lokathor]

the chapters I wrote for Augmentation (and let's be honest: deeply fucking up the cyberware upgrade rules I wrote in "editing" for no reason)

Care to comment on what you wrote for upgrade rules? Augmentation doesn't seem to have much rules near the word "upgrade" with a quick search, just the thing about an essence hole.

[erik]

Soooooo they fire people for expressing personal opinions, on a board not associated with their brand, under a pseudonym that has been, until now, unconnected to their professional life within that company?

Not surprised at all, considering AH got banned off the freelancer boards for expressing an opinion in a private chat. Still, seems a tad... childish, to me. And a bit unprofessional.

Sooooo, if we create accounts for all developers and start posting here under their names, how many people would get actually fired?

Don't do that.

Thank you, Frank.
Don't. Do. That.

If you want childish dick moves it is hard to do worse than trying to get a stranger fired via lies.

While I strongly empathize with people who get fired due to bullshit lies, I cannot fault firing of an employee who is posting on social media that the company and product is shit. What do you expect? If I did that at any previous job ever then I would expect to be canned. If I felt that way then I should either address it internally or leave. It ain't the same as whistleblowing.

[Username17]

the chapters I wrote for Augmentation (and let's be honest: deeply fucking up the cyberware upgrade rules I wrote in "editing" for no reason)

Care to comment on what you wrote for upgrade rules? Augmentation doesn't seem to have much rules near the word "upgrade" with a quick search, just the thing about an essence hole.

All that weird ass shit about vampires creating essence holes you couldn't do shit about was some sort of last minute editing change to try to errata out an exploit Peter thought he saw but actually wasn't real. The way I wrote it, you simply had your current Essence and the total Essence Cost of all your implants. If your current Essence plus the Essence Cost was more than 6, your current Essence fell until it wasn't. The end.

-Username17

[Ancient History]

Oh shit, I didn't think the current SR team was vindictive enough to still lurk here.

Am I still on the haters list? Do I need to renew my membership or something? Oh, can I republish the private conversations I had with Jason Hardy when he tried to smear AH on Dumpshock?

https://jpst.it/MFve

He's a classy guy, that Hardy. And by all indications still just as good a line dev!

I remember that. It was super weird. I mean, when I came out and accused Jason of plagiarizing me, it's because I could point out exact chunks of my drafts that had been lifted and pasted into the final product. Jason didn't care to go through that much trouble before accusing me. Of course, it was much more bullshit than even that, since the actual "proofing" of my PACKS files was a round of playtesters who apparently looked at it and offered comments, and some freelancer feedback, most of which were produced before Jason came on board as line dev. Those "250 changes" were largely about where to put the commas and brackets. I was the one that made all the changes anyway, since they were my documents.

Honestly, I'd be amazed if Jason even read PACKS in its entirety at any point. The amount of basic errors - many of which had been carefully pointed out by freelancers weeks before it went to print - that made it through into the final products...anyway. This isn't the Bash Jason Thread.

Anyway, ancient history...this is the kind of stuff that makes me avoid Shadowrun entirely these days. I don't want spend my life reliving crap that happened six years ago. In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have gotten involved with Shadowrun as a freelancer at all. I won't pretend I was a writing god; I made more than my share of mistakes from the beginning to the end...and I sure as fuck wasn't doing it for the money. But I was passionate about it. I loved well but not at all wisely. Guess I had to wait for the sudden-yet-inevitable betrayal.

[Neurosis]

For Bobby, it was much much harder. It's not my story to tell of course, but he was quite an invested fanboy, and walking away from it required CGL management to quite thoroughly burn their bridges with him through a long series of betrayals to him personally and to people he considered friends.

My experience was much closer to Ancient History's.

But Ancient, you quit, right? I got fired. So you get dignity points for that.