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Kaelik King
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6718
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Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| VladtheLad wrote: | | Kaelik wrote: |
It makes Wands/Scrolls/Staves much worse at higher levels, because they have to compete with +1/3rd level to three things and a major ability.
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You misunderstood, +1/3rd level to three things and no major ability (and +1/3rd level to 2 things and no moderate ability). |
EVEN MORE STUPID!
So you add every single problem above, but you also make all items generic, interchangeable, uninteresting, and solely numbers based, so even though major items are still better than other items, they are only better in an uninteresting way where it doesn't even matter which ones you have as long as in total you have bonuses to more things.
Please stop posting in this thread, you are hurting my brain with your intense desire to ruin the game. Go ruin your own game, stop posting about it here. _________________
| DSMatticus wrote: | | Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do? |
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers) | FrankTrollman wrote: | | Really, the only thing the "my character can beat up your character" challenges ever do by presenting a clear and unambiguous beat down is to have the loser drop of the thread and pretend the challenge never happened. |
| Lord Mistborn wrote: | | The way people talk it seems like any of us could at least do better than Mearls, why does Castles and Cocks not already exist? |
| fectin wrote: | | I dare you to name five Denners you'd be willing to work with for that long. |
| Chamomile wrote: | | Hard mode: Those Denners must also be willing to work with you. |
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VladtheLad 1st Level
Joined: 30 Oct 2010 Posts: 28
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Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Kaelik wrote: |
So you add every single problem above, but you also make all items generic. |
You misunderstood again, I am not saying this should apply to all items.
Also, no you don't, in all those problems you mentioned, you assumed I said something I didn't.
Last edited by VladtheLad on Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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angelfromanotherpin Prince

Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 2998
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Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think that stacking multiple bonuses on single item slots breaks the game. As long as the core principle that a very limited number of bonuses are adding to any one number is in place, you should be basically okay. Indeed, anyone who trades out real abilities like Blink for some extra +s is probably shorting themselves badly.
But it's still bad for the game, because the whole point was that you should not be allowed to trade out interesting powers for necessary scaling numbers. That's what the RAW produces, and it's crap. _________________ "Now that we've determined that up to π angels can dance on the head of a pin, how do we determine the specific number (or fraction) of angels dancing?"
"What if angels from another pin engage them in melee combat?" |
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Kaelik King
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6718
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VladtheLad 1st Level
Joined: 30 Oct 2010 Posts: 28
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Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| angelfromanotherpin wrote: | I don't think that stacking multiple bonuses on single item slots breaks the game.
But it's still bad for the game, |
I get that, I actually liked the idea from a fluff point of view. Ah well... |
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Bihlbo Journeyman
Joined: 19 Nov 2010 Posts: 139
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Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| VladtheLad wrote: | | angelfromanotherpin wrote: | I don't think that stacking multiple bonuses on single item slots breaks the game.
But it's still bad for the game, |
I get that, I actually liked the idea from a fluff point of view. Ah well... |
Knowing that it's bad for the game doesn't prevent you from using the idea and making it work. For instance, if you wanted the occasional item to seem like it's awesome but have all the drawbacks that have been mentioned, then this is the way to do it (basically it's a trap item that isn't cursed). But knowing that it's bad for the game overall, ideally it should be a rare exception, not a wholesale change to the way you handle magic items. |
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TarkisFlux Knight-Baron
Joined: 22 Jun 2008 Posts: 828 Location: Magic Mountain, CA
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Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Kaelik, in your linked example you pull out a linked + lifestealing + dispelling qualities, but I don't see any sort of "this many X level qualities make 1 Y level quality item" floating around. Did I miss that, or can you throw one up with some justifications? _________________ http://www.dnd-wiki.org - the wiki
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins." |
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Kaelik King
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6718
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Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| TarkisFlux wrote: | | Kaelik, in your linked example you pull out a linked + lifestealing + dispelling qualities, but I don't see any sort of "this many X level qualities make 1 Y level quality item" floating around. Did I miss that, or can you throw one up with some justifications? |
I don't think it exists, and I don't think that the listed example is actually valid, and I'm glad, because one should really be the limit.
However, note that I did put: "A Linked Weapon with an additional Minor Ability is a Moderate weapon." in a special note attached to the ability.
I think I will expand that to say that a Linked Moderate is a Major, and that I officially come down on the side of "Every single hit."
So that way a Lifestealing Linked armor set is major, and I think I can allow 10-12 saves against negative levels to be the equivalent of 4-5 saves against dying. _________________
| DSMatticus wrote: | | Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do? |
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers) | FrankTrollman wrote: | | Really, the only thing the "my character can beat up your character" challenges ever do by presenting a clear and unambiguous beat down is to have the loser drop of the thread and pretend the challenge never happened. |
| Lord Mistborn wrote: | | The way people talk it seems like any of us could at least do better than Mearls, why does Castles and Cocks not already exist? |
| fectin wrote: | | I dare you to name five Denners you'd be willing to work with for that long. |
| Chamomile wrote: | | Hard mode: Those Denners must also be willing to work with you. |
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Archmage Knight-Baron

Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Posts: 656
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Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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In Tome, Power Attack is simply an attack option usable by anyone, not a feat.
Is Power Attack usable with ranged weapons, or just melee attacks? It isn't specified anywhere, though by default the PA feat is melee-only in core. _________________
| P.C. Hodgell wrote: | | That which can be destroyed by the truth should be. |
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ubernoob Duke

Joined: 17 May 2008 Posts: 1930
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Archmage wrote: | In Tome, Power Attack is simply an attack option usable by anyone, not a feat.
Is Power Attack usable with ranged weapons, or just melee attacks? It isn't specified anywhere, though by default the PA feat is melee-only in core. | In the tomes, you can totally use it with ranged weapons. In 3e you could get "ranged power attack" via a PrC and in 3.5 there was a feat to PA with thrown weapons. So yeah, PA being used for ranged weapons is not new. _________________
| FrankTrollman wrote: | This will make you sound erudite and focused in print, even if the real you is wandering from thought to thought like a 4 year old on acid.
-Frank |
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Midnight_v Knight

Joined: 15 May 2008 Posts: 499 Location: Texas
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Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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When using the tome, how much of it do you mix with the srd or dmg or whatever? Are the games you run simple "Tome-only" or "Tome replacing everything it covers, everything else is included" I have a player who wants to take improved grapple or some such nonsense for example. Is there a tome replacement or is that supposed to be covered by the edge or something else? _________________ Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want.... |
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Maxus King

Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 5668
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Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Juggernaut gives you a +4 bonus to thing potentially modified by your size. Which includes grapples and most other combat maneuvers... _________________ He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario |
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Kaelik King
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6718
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Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Midnight_v wrote: | | When using the tome, how much of it do you mix with the srd or dmg or whatever? Are the games you run simple "Tome-only" or "Tome replacing everything it covers, everything else is included" I have a player who wants to take improved grapple or some such nonsense for example. Is there a tome replacement or is that supposed to be covered by the edge or something else? |
I mostly allow whatever, but spend a lot of time looking over characters to make sure I approve. But I offer to make non shitty versions of whatever WotC shit catches their fancy.
If someone shows up with some pile of trash WotC character though, I mostly punch them in the face for wasting my time, because there is no goddam reason for that shit, unless they are a Cleric/Beguiler/Wizard/Druid/Dread Necro with non shitty feats.
If someone said they wanted Improved Grapple, I'd point them to edge obtaining feats, Juggernaught, and Giant Slayer, depending on what type of grappler they wanted. Then I'd tell them to not waste a feat on shit like numeric bonuses and "you must be this tall to play the game" feats. _________________
| DSMatticus wrote: | | Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do? |
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers) | FrankTrollman wrote: | | Really, the only thing the "my character can beat up your character" challenges ever do by presenting a clear and unambiguous beat down is to have the loser drop of the thread and pretend the challenge never happened. |
| Lord Mistborn wrote: | | The way people talk it seems like any of us could at least do better than Mearls, why does Castles and Cocks not already exist? |
| fectin wrote: | | I dare you to name five Denners you'd be willing to work with for that long. |
| Chamomile wrote: | | Hard mode: Those Denners must also be willing to work with you. |
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Koumei Overlord
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 8969 Location: South Ausfailia
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Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Come to think of it, requirements.
There are a few very rare non-shit feats/PrCls in the WotC books. Maybe by accident. But they can have bizarre requirements that are Tome-incompatible. Do you just go for closest match? ie
Improved Unarmed Strike: any fucking natural weapon, srsly
Improved Grapple: Juggernaut or Giant Killer
Power Attack: Blitz (or "everyone automatically has it, so nya")
Endurance: Great Fortitude
Combat Casting: punch the book _________________
| Count Arioch the 28th wrote: | | There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better. |
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CatharzGodfoot King

Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 5497 Location: North Carolina
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Echoes Apprentice
Joined: 30 Jan 2009 Posts: 78
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Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Koumei wrote: | Come to think of it, requirements.
There are a few very rare non-shit feats/PrCls in the WotC books. Maybe by accident. But they can have bizarre requirements that are Tome-incompatible. Do you just go for closest match? ie
Improved Unarmed Strike: any fucking natural weapon, srsly
Improved Grapple: Juggernaut or Giant Killer
Power Attack: Blitz (or "everyone automatically has it, so nya")
Endurance: Great Fortitude
Combat Casting: punch the book |
I'm pretty sure the Tomes actually state that everyone auto-qualifies for shit that requires Power Attack, and Combat Expertise assuming they meet the other prereqs. The others seem reasonable (but I'm not Kaelik). |
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CatharzGodfoot King

Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 5497 Location: North Carolina
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Kaelik King
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6718
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fbmf The Great Fence Builder

Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 2101
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| CatharzGodfoot wrote: | | Weapon Focus is another common one with a clear replacement. |
I always use Combat School for Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization prereqs. What do you use?
Game On,
fbmf |
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CatharzGodfoot King

Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 5497 Location: North Carolina
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Koumei Overlord
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 8969 Location: South Ausfailia
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:02 am Post subject: |
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So we generally agree "These cover the Equivalency/Virtual Feat clause"? Cool. _________________
| Count Arioch the 28th wrote: | | There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better. |
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CatharzGodfoot King

Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 5497 Location: North Carolina
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Midnight_v Knight

Joined: 15 May 2008 Posts: 499 Location: Texas
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Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| CatharzGodfoot wrote: | | Koumei wrote: | | So we generally agree "These cover the Equivalency/Virtual Feat clause"? Cool. |
If a feat includes 100% of another feat, it should count as that feat as far as prerequisites are concerned. The real difficulty is going the other way. If a 3e class grants Dodge, should you give Elusive Target in its place? Probably yes, but it takes some judgemet. |
Well my friend says its hard as hell to trip people w/out improved trip. I found that I wanted to use karmic stike, at low levels as opposed to hordebreaker/robilars gambit or whatever. There are jsut a few, overall things work perfectly.
Has anyone tried the full bab fiendish brute aside from Kaelik? _________________ Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want.... |
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For Valor Knight-Baron

Joined: 02 Jul 2009 Posts: 529
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Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I have. Is totally fine. _________________
| Mask wrote: | | And for the love of all that is good and unholy, just get a fucking hippogrif mount and pretend its a flying worg. |
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Kaelik King
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6718
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Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Midnight_v wrote: | | CatharzGodfoot wrote: | | Koumei wrote: | | So we generally agree "These cover the Equivalency/Virtual Feat clause"? Cool. |
If a feat includes 100% of another feat, it should count as that feat as far as prerequisites are concerned. The real difficulty is going the other way. If a 3e class grants Dodge, should you give Elusive Target in its place? Probably yes, but it takes some judgemet. |
Well my friend says its hard as hell to trip people w/out improved trip. I found that I wanted to use karmic stike, at low levels as opposed to hordebreaker/robilars gambit or whatever. There are jsut a few, overall things work perfectly.
Has anyone tried the full bab fiendish brute aside from Kaelik? |
Well your friends is dumb. What is true in 3.5 is not neccissarily true in Tome.
There is a feat that removes Size bonuses to trip checks for both parties.
If you take that feat, and maximize your Str and BAB, you are rolling 1d20+Str+BAB vs 10+str+BAB. So if you are fighting anything that is not a dragon, you succeed at tripping at least half the time. And you can do that from Gnome size.
Alternatively, you can be a Fiendish Brute and trip anything. Alternatively you can take the Fiend feats that increase your size while being a Fighter and usually trip anything huge or smaller.
I mean really, if you are trying to trip something that is even one size category larger than you, Giant slayer is equal or better than Improved Trip. Most things of sizes you can easily reach don't have as high Str, and so are already trippable. And in Tome, you can have the size modifier of a Gargantuan creature and +8 (+16 if playing without my errata) bonus to Str in addition to enhancement/Race/inherent/ect. _________________
| DSMatticus wrote: | | Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do? |
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers) | FrankTrollman wrote: | | Really, the only thing the "my character can beat up your character" challenges ever do by presenting a clear and unambiguous beat down is to have the loser drop of the thread and pretend the challenge never happened. |
| Lord Mistborn wrote: | | The way people talk it seems like any of us could at least do better than Mearls, why does Castles and Cocks not already exist? |
| fectin wrote: | | I dare you to name five Denners you'd be willing to work with for that long. |
| Chamomile wrote: | | Hard mode: Those Denners must also be willing to work with you. |
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