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CatharzGodfoot King

Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 5507 Location: North Carolina
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For Valor Knight-Baron

Joined: 02 Jul 2009 Posts: 529
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:11 am Post subject: |
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Well, that's pretty close.
Still, nothing like Swarm of Arrows? _________________
| Mask wrote: | | And for the love of all that is good and unholy, just get a fucking hippogrif mount and pretend its a flying worg. |
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schpeelah Master
Joined: 08 Jun 2008 Posts: 215
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| Whirlwind is a level 3 Soldier melee maneuver. The Halfling Stance allows you to use any maneuver, even melee ones, with a thrown weapon, throw any weapon and triples the range increment of light weapons. It's more Rip van Winkle with a dagger than swarm of arrows, but still pretty cool. |
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CatharzGodfoot King

Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 5507 Location: North Carolina
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Kaelik King
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6847
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Koumei Overlord
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 9115 Location: South Ausfailia
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Hundreds of daggers, you say?
 _________________
| Count Arioch the 28th wrote: | | There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better. |
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For Valor Knight-Baron

Joined: 02 Jul 2009 Posts: 529
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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So no on the Whirlwind feat; yes on the soldier nonsense.
I'm just gonna say "You can take the [Epic] Swarm of Arrows feat at level 10 or above," and tag it as [Combat] then. _________________
| Mask wrote: | | And for the love of all that is good and unholy, just get a fucking hippogrif mount and pretend its a flying worg. |
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Red_Rob Duke
Joined: 17 Jul 2009 Posts: 1899
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Firstly, while most of these are things that have been mentioned or bandied around in previous threads (Like the Combat School clarification), its nice to have them all in one place and the fixes, like the Fiend Size feats, are good.
Now, regarding the Errata. Metamagic Feats and ML; Should all the old ways of avoiding increasing spell level for Metamagic still apply? I.e. Metamagic from items still applied without adding ML, does DMM cheese still work etc? The Persist change looks like it will bring Clerics down a peg or two. Is that intended?
I remember some discussion about bad things happening when high level Sphere abilities are usable at will without limits, and some suggestion that the highest level ability you have access to should never be more than 3/day? Has that been considered for inclusion?
The magic weapon attuning rule nicely resolves the contradiction between "items take 15 mins to attune" and "bobby knife thrower can throw 8 magic knives one at a time". The "unless thrown" thing is a little clunky, I'd resolve it with "if they leave your hand they become unnatuned at the end of that initiative count" allowing time for thrown weapons to hit but not much else.
The bonus list in BoG had an entry for "+1/3 levels to whatever" which was too vague and could lead to brokenness, but I think the current defined list is a little restrictive. Some characters want bonuses to things that most people don't consider useful, like DR, so I would probably put something in about "You can have an enhancement bonus to other stats if you want, but nothing figured from a stat already on this list".
You mentioned wanting to power up the Jester and Assassin. One house rule we have implemented is that Cantrips are cast as a swift action. This powers up classes with awesome cantrips (like the Jester) without affecting other casters much.
Currently all Samurai use Picks or Scythes. There was a fix discussed in which any incease in threat range to a weapon increased the multiplier by +1 for Kiai, don't know if you want to include that.
Kudos for putting this together, its very useful for the game I'm running. _________________ Simplified Tome Armor. Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules. |
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Kaelik King
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6847
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Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Red_Rob wrote: | | Now, regarding the Errata. Metamagic Feats and ML; Should all the old ways of avoiding increasing spell level for Metamagic still apply? I.e. Metamagic from items still applied without adding ML, does DMM cheese still work etc? The Persist change looks like it will bring Clerics down a peg or two. Is that intended? |
Well, book of gears doesn't actually make room currently for rods of metamagic, but I would not be strictly opposed to their use.
DMM... Well, there's a reason Persist was changed, and it does bring them down. I think with the changes, DMM is no more or less powerful than any other use of domains and feats and turn undead attempts (domain spontaneity + Get more good domains is my example balance point).
I'm really not sure, because I don't play Clerics except to prove that DMM persist clerics bring more to the table in damage than any Fighter ever.
| Red_Rob wrote: | | I remember some discussion about bad things happening when high level Sphere abilities are usable at will without limits, and some suggestion that the highest level ability you have access to should never be more than 3/day? Has that been considered for inclusion? |
No, I have not and never will consider such a stupid whiny bitch change. The only people who care are people who look at the level 19 abilities, Gate, and Time Stop, and bitch about how X at will breaks the game. Fuck them, it's level 19, if you want to break the game, you can break it with Gate 3/day anyway.
Other than that, it's just a bullshit nerf that makes Conduits wait another two levels before they can build their castle. Fuck that.
The only Conduit abilities that exist are: 1) Create infinite minions. 2) Make a level appropriate attack this round.
I'm not going to cripple 2 to make 1 take two more levels to come into play, especially not because it comes into play already at level 3 by anyone who takes the Bone Sphere.
Furthermore, GRRRRR!
| Red_Rob wrote: | | The magic weapon attuning rule nicely resolves the contradiction between "items take 15 mins to attune" and "bobby knife thrower can throw 8 magic knives one at a time". The "unless thrown" thing is a little clunky, I'd resolve it with "if they leave your hand they become unnatuned at the end of that initiative count" allowing time for thrown weapons to hit but not much else. |
No, because then bobby knife thrower can't throw 4 knives.
| Red_Rob wrote: | | The bonus list in BoG had an entry for "+1/3 levels to whatever" which was too vague and could lead to brokenness, but I think the current defined list is a little restrictive. Some characters want bonuses to things that most people don't consider useful, like DR, so I would probably put something in about "You can have an enhancement bonus to other stats if you want, but nothing figured from a stat already on this list". |
I'm not sure I want it that open ended. However, I could definitely add DR/SR, something else anyone brings up, to that list.
| Red_Rob wrote: | | You mentioned wanting to power up the Jester and Assassin. One house rule we have implemented is that Cantrips are cast as a swift action. This powers up classes with awesome cantrips (like the Jester) without affecting other casters much. |
I don't know. I've never really paid much attention to half caster lists, so I don't know what the Assassin and Jester have anyway. My fixes are usually only aimed at stuff I like, or stuff that specifically I get confused about. _________________
| DSMatticus wrote: | | Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do? |
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers) | FrankTrollman wrote: | | Really, the only thing the "my character can beat up your character" challenges ever do by presenting a clear and unambiguous beat down is to have the loser drop of the thread and pretend the challenge never happened. |
| Lord Mistborn wrote: | | The way people talk it seems like any of us could at least do better than Mearls, why does Castles and Cocks not already exist? |
| fectin wrote: | | I dare you to name five Denners you'd be willing to work with for that long. |
| Chamomile wrote: | | Hard mode: Those Denners must also be willing to work with you. |
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Koumei Overlord
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 9115 Location: South Ausfailia
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Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Kaelik wrote: |
I don't know. I've never really paid much attention to half caster lists, so I don't know what the Assassin and Jester have anyway. My fixes are usually only aimed at stuff I like, or stuff that specifically I get confused about. |
Can't speak for the Assassin, but the Jester's Cantrips include Grease, which is a handy spell, if no Colour Spray. The main spell I see Jesters using is Fire Trap, to add some extra Fire damage to the Acid flasks they sneak attack with. |
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TarkisFlux Knight-Baron
Joined: 22 Jun 2008 Posts: 849 Location: Magic Mountain, CA
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Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:17 am Post subject: |
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The assassin pulls spells off the wizard list without random level changes, but only only from the Divination, Illusion, or Necromancy schools. Their cantrips aren't all that awesome. _________________ http://www.dnd-wiki.org - the wiki
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins." |
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Mauver Journeyman
Joined: 31 May 2008 Posts: 155
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Koumei wrote: | | Kaelik wrote: |
I don't know. I've never really paid much attention to half caster lists, so I don't know what the Assassin and Jester have anyway. My fixes are usually only aimed at stuff I like, or stuff that specifically I get confused about. |
Can't speak for the Assassin, but the Jester's Cantrips include Grease, which is a handy spell, if no Colour Spray. The main spell I see Jesters using is Fire Trap, to add some extra Fire damage to the Acid flasks they sneak attack with. |
Don't forget about Glitterdust, which they get as a level 1 spell a level earlier than the wizards do. Mass save-or-blind comes in very handy. |
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Red_Rob Duke
Joined: 17 Jul 2009 Posts: 1899
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| Kaelik wrote: | | DMM persist clerics bring more to the table in damage than any Fighter ever. |
Well, more than any Core Fighter ever. Tome Martial classes can do some pretty kick-ass things, partially because they were balanced around Clerics having full BaB.
That was my only query, if we boost Martial classes because Clerics get Persistent Divine Power, then we take it away, do we leave Clerics in the lurch?
| Kaelik wrote: | | No, because then bobby knife thrower can't throw 4 knives. |
You're right...
What about "They instantly become unnattuned if they leave your hand, however any bonus they are providing themselves (enhancement bonus, Flaming etc.) lingers until the end of the initiative count"? _________________ Simplified Tome Armor. Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Last edited by Red_Rob on Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kaelik King
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6847
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VladtheLad 1st Level
Joined: 30 Oct 2010 Posts: 28
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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Neat. This clarified a lot of things.
The save DC for your spells is 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Primary Ability Modifier, just like everyone else in the game.
Whats the thinking behind that? It does make things simpler, but it kinda buffs the casters (not that that's a necessary bad thing).
Last edited by VladtheLad on Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:21 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Kaelik King
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6847
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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| VladtheLad wrote: | Neat. This clarified a lot of things.
The save DC for your spells is 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Primary Ability Modifier, just like everyone else in the game.
Whats the thinking behind that? It does make things simpler, but it kinda buffs the casters (not that that's a necessary bad thing). |
1) It buffs the casters lower level spells. That's good, because they weren't using them for save or X stuff anyway, they were still using high level slots for that.
2) On odd levels, it reduces the DCs of a Wizards highest level slots by 1. This is not a why thing, it's just a by the way thing.
3) It's much easier bookkeeping.
4) The casters need some buffs to compete with other Tome classes and material, if they aren't going Incantatrix/DMM/ Planar Binding/Charm Monster cheese levels.
5) It makes everything be on the same RNG. A level 7 spell is still better than glitterdust, because it can do something better than blind, but all the spells are still useful. This is opposed to having a 60% chance targeting a weak save with your highest level spell slots, but only a 20% chance targeting a weak save with a level 2 slot. It emphasizes the 15 minute workday problem and encourages players to use stupid bullshit like Ray of stupidity or Shivering touch.
This way, you still prepare glitterdust and stinking cloud instead of ray of stupidity and shivering touch, and so enemies have a level appropriate chance of avoiding your attack, instead of you using touch attack no save shit because it's the only thing that works in those slots. _________________
| DSMatticus wrote: | | Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do? |
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers) | FrankTrollman wrote: | | Really, the only thing the "my character can beat up your character" challenges ever do by presenting a clear and unambiguous beat down is to have the loser drop of the thread and pretend the challenge never happened. |
| Lord Mistborn wrote: | | The way people talk it seems like any of us could at least do better than Mearls, why does Castles and Cocks not already exist? |
| fectin wrote: | | I dare you to name five Denners you'd be willing to work with for that long. |
| Chamomile wrote: | | Hard mode: Those Denners must also be willing to work with you. |
Last edited by Kaelik on Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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For Valor Knight-Baron

Joined: 02 Jul 2009 Posts: 529
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Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| Kaelik wrote: | | VladtheLad wrote: | Neat. This clarified a lot of things.
The save DC for your spells is 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Primary Ability Modifier, just like everyone else in the game.
Whats the thinking behind that? It does make things simpler, but it kinda buffs the casters (not that that's a necessary bad thing). |
1) It buffs the casters lower level spells. That's good, because they weren't using them for save or X stuff anyway, they were still using high level slots for that.
2) On odd levels, it reduces the DCs of a Wizards highest level slots by 1. This is not a why thing, it's just a by the way thing.
3) It's much easier bookkeeping.
4) The casters need some buffs to compete with other Tome classes and material, if they aren't going Incantatrix/DMM/ Planar Binding/Charm Monster cheese levels.
5) It makes everything be on the same RNG. A level 7 spell is still better than glitterdust, because it can do something better than blind, but all the spells are still useful. This is opposed to having a 60% chance targeting a weak save with your highest level spell slots, but only a 20% chance targeting a weak save with a level 2 slot. It emphasizes the 15 minute workday problem and encourages players to use stupid bullshit like Ray of stupidity or Shivering touch.
This way, you still prepare glitterdust and stinking cloud instead of ray of stupidity and shivering touch, and so enemies have a level appropriate chance of avoiding your attack, instead of you using touch attack no save shit because it's the only thing that works in those slots. |
| Kaelik wrote: | | 4) The casters need some buffs to compete with other Tome classes and material, if they aren't going Incantatrix/DMM/ Planar Binding/Charm Monster cheese levels. |
| Kaelik wrote: | | 4) The casters need some buffs to compete with other Tome classes and material[...] |
The casters need some buffs
... and the world comes to an end... _________________
| Mask wrote: | | And for the love of all that is good and unholy, just get a fucking hippogrif mount and pretend its a flying worg. |
Last edited by For Valor on Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kaelik King
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6847
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VladtheLad 1st Level
Joined: 30 Oct 2010 Posts: 28
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Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Makes sense. Thanks for explaining.
Last edited by VladtheLad on Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Judging__Eagle Prince

Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 3884 Location: Lake Ontario is in my backyard; Canada
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Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Kaelik wrote: | | I'm really not sure, because I don't play Clerics except to prove that DMM persist clerics bring more to the table in damage than any Fighter ever. |
Any fighter, ever? I think we seriously got bent out of shape over at least one tweaked out build. Of course, the character was seriously not built for the game it was used. I blame myself for not asking in detail what "Character Optimization Challenge" for a campaign descriptor "actually" meant, since apparently using a RoW fighter wasn't kosher. ...):
| Kaelik wrote: | I've been saying this for actual years since Races of War came out yes.
It takes like 30 seconds to slap together a Barbarian that wins MVP in every game that doesn't feature absurd cheese that ruins the game. |
Yes, this is true.
Of course, RoW was the pendulum swinging the opposite way. So some overshooting was done. Now, it is time enough to bring the pendulum back to a more reasonable place, the middle.
Wizards that use... fireball as a combat tactic are just as upsetting as fighters picking up Weapon Focus.
I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that. _________________ The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Kaelik King
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6847
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Judging__Eagle Prince

Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 3884 Location: Lake Ontario is in my backyard; Canada
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Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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1) Watch the insults your ablist ass flings out. Some people get really bent out of shape, and they have a good point. You're no more clever than if you called me something racist or attack my gender or sexual preference or political or religious preferences (go for it, call me a bi trans hippy-wop and still say you can still feel clean afterward). We both know you're able to do better than use that word (try something that makes sense, or describes the situation/target); and you're only reinforcing pejoratives with use of that word.
2) Which specific long-duration buffs work best for DMM Clerics? I can think of things that are straight out of the PHB (Divine Power for full BaB and "fuck your Str belt"; or any of the Restoration chain of spells for "fast healing nao"), but there are probably some uncommon things as well.
p.s.
Thinking about that character again, I'll concede that the character wasn't a damage dealer. They were actually pretty anemic in the damage dealing capacity, and damage dealing wasn't actually their forte at all. It was one of their smallest abilities really (grappling, damage absorption and some other things were also lacking). Calling them a rogue, bard or monk with very high BaB and lots of RoW combat feats would be more accurate, and probably correct. _________________ The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board. |
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Kaelik King
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6847
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Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Judging__Eagle wrote: | | 1) Watch the insults your ablist ass flings out. Some people get really bent out of shape, and they have a good point. You're no more clever than if you called me something racist or attack my gender or sexual preference or political or religious preferences (go for it, call me a bi trans hippy-wop and still say you can still feel clean afterward). We both know you're able to do better than use that word (try something that makes sense, or describes the situation/target); and you're only reinforcing pejoratives with use of that word. |
No. Retard is what you call incurably stupid people. You are incurably stupid. I am no more beholden to someone else's offense at me accurately describing you any more than I beholden to the rage at accurately describing Crissa as a bitch.
The reason racial slurs and "transgendered" are not appropriate insults is because they have no other meaning other than "member or race X" which is not something that is insulting.
So yes, retard is a real insult for stupid people like you that is no different than calling Zinegata a bitch.
| Judging__Eagle wrote: | | 2) Which specific long-duration buffs work best for DMM Clerics? I can think of things that are straight out of the PHB (Divine Power for full BaB and "fuck your Str belt"; or any of the Restoration chain of spells for "fast healing nao"), but there are probably some uncommon things as well. |
Well, depending on what you want, the specific goal I go for is super archery.
So the trick to that is:
1) Some form of polymorphing. PAO works at the high end, but if you can DMM Persist a Polymorph or Draconic Polymorph spell that you get on your list before then (or via spell domain), way to go you. You also have to be an outsider to get Arrow Demon.
2) Heroics to get Rapid Shot and Zen Archery if you have the spell domain. More feats for Extra Turning.
3) Arrow Demon + two Splitting Bows = 4 attacks per every normal attack.
So you want to get as many bonuses to AB and damage as you can, and get as many attacks as you can.
Arrow Demon + Righteous Might + Divine Power + GMW + Righteous Wrath of the Faithful + Righteous Fury + Divine Favor + Knowledge Devotion + Double Heroics = Level 11: Str 43 Wis 24 gives you full attack of +22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+12/+12/+12
+ your knowledge check converted by Knowledge Devotion added onto that.
for 3d8+25 + Knowledge Devotion damage bonus.
After that, you want to spend your other attempts on Lesser Vigor, True Seeing, and defenses. Also, probably some level 1 spell that doubles your range increment or something, but I can't recall it, even though I'm sure such a thing exists.
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers) | Judging__Eagle wrote: | | Thinking about that character again, I'll concede that the character wasn't a damage dealer. They were actually pretty anemic in the damage dealing capacity, and damage dealing wasn't actually their forte at all. It was one of their smallest abilities really (grappling, damage absorption and some other things were also lacking). Calling them a rogue, bard or monk with very high BaB and lots of RoW combat feats would be more accurate, and probably correct. |
I never said the character wasn't a damage dealer, because he was, he did over 250 damage on a full attack not counting the Con damage. What I said was that DMM Persist Clerics do even more damage than that. Because your character breaks the game, and likewise, DMM Persist Clerics break the game.
So do uber chargers. Doing too much damage is a way of pushing yourself off the RNG that makes playing the game impossible. Uberchargers can just be negated with entangle or fatigue effects, but DMM Persist Clerics can't be.
And the fact that you would say "He was like a Rogue" as something to indicate he was not a damage dealer blows my mind, because that's the thing rogues do. _________________
| DSMatticus wrote: | | Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do? |
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers) | FrankTrollman wrote: | | Really, the only thing the "my character can beat up your character" challenges ever do by presenting a clear and unambiguous beat down is to have the loser drop of the thread and pretend the challenge never happened. |
| Lord Mistborn wrote: | | The way people talk it seems like any of us could at least do better than Mearls, why does Castles and Cocks not already exist? |
| fectin wrote: | | I dare you to name five Denners you'd be willing to work with for that long. |
| Chamomile wrote: | | Hard mode: Those Denners must also be willing to work with you. |
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ubernoob Duke

Joined: 17 May 2008 Posts: 1930
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Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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The spell domain is actually incredibly optimal on a cleric. Greater Anyspell at level six is just right to persist draconic polymorph (you can't apply persist to regular polymorph). Plain old anyspell grants you wraithstrike should you care. When you hit level 13 you get to pop off limited wish at the start of the day when your CL is through the roof to get Hunter's Eye should you ever fight anything that isn't immune to sneak attack.
Granted, you're not a wizard, but wizards have to use incantatrix and runestaffs to pull the same trick. And as a cleric, you can do cheater of mystra cheese. _________________
| FrankTrollman wrote: | This will make you sound erudite and focused in print, even if the real you is wandering from thought to thought like a 4 year old on acid.
-Frank |
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Kaelik King
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6847
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