About to level up

[RadiantPhoenix]

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this

My group is convinced that the tome feat "Greater Teleport" is inappropriate to take as my feat at sixth level. Please either help me convince them otherwise or help me understand their side.

[koz]

Your friends are likely freaking out at the words 'greater teleport', but in practice, if you cannot take your party with you, it's a scouting tool at best. Additionally, you're seriously 6th level. Your friends, if playing intelligently, are already able to combat-alter or combat-win with a single spell. In social encounters, it's almost ridiculously easy too, thanks to stuff like charm person being something almost throwaway by now, to say nothing of suggestion. They can also pass pretty much any skill check ever (divine insight), turn all your friends invisible (invisibility sphere), get turbo-powered travel horses (phantom steed), read every language ever (comprehend languages), and go underwater with very few issues (water breathing). Seriously, it's a joke that your friends consider that feat to be inappropriate in any way, shape or form.

[Avoraciopoctules]

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this

My group is convinced that the tome feat "Greater Teleport" is inappropriate to take as my feat at sixth level. Please either help me convince them otherwise or help me understand their side.

1. What sorts of abilities do the PCs presently have access to?

2. In general, how powerful is the party?

3. Most importantly, what kinds of challenges does the party face?

There are a lot of scenarios that can no longer provide much of an interesting challenge once someone can teleport. Many courier missions, for instance.

Alternatively, is your group saying that Greater Teleport is inappropriate for any PC in any level 6 game? That's a bit different.

[RadiantPhoenix]

The party's primary complaint is that it's a 7th level spell at will

The party is as follows:

A Petal captured one unseelie fey bard (buffer)
A 30 int fine-sized warforged scout psion (shaper)
An elf rogue (archer)
and me, a human sphere-warlock


EDIT: we are currently exploring a new world

EDIT 2:
The rogue mostly shoots his bow, the bard just buffs, but the psion is basically out utility caster; he also produces astral constructs to tank, and recently duplicated cloudkill with minor creation
My character's most recent incident was unintentionally creating a forest fire.

[koz]

The party's primary concern isn't significant. Greater teleport can transport multiple people and a lot of gear. The feat version transports only you, and 50lb of gear. It's nowhere near a 7th level spell.

[RadiantPhoenix]

I asked the psion, and he elaborated that he wouldn't mind it if it were the only thing I could do.

EDIT: I think they are expecting some sort of backstabbing to happen, either them stabbing me, or me stabbing them.

[Akula]

I asked the psion, and he elaborated that he wouldn't mind it if it were the only thing I could do.

EDIT: I think they are expecting some sort of backstabbing to happen, either them stabbing me, or me stabbing them.

The Psion can go and fuck himself. He has an int score that would be very respectable on a character 4 levels higher than himself, a massive size bonus to every action he really cares about, and construct immunities to many things. Plus he has the two best first level powers, and is apparently all right with replicating a strong 5th level combat spell for negligable cost. If he has ego whip, hustle, and linked power I'll rest my case. Tell him you'll consider making a character like that when he makes a chacter that isn't powergamed out the ass.

I'd care more about the near useless Rogue and Bard's opinions. They have to be feeling overshadowed by the SUPAH PSION. If they tollerate him, they have no right to bitch at you.

[CatharzGodfoot]

The party's primary concern isn't significant. Greater teleport can transport multiple people and a lot of gear. The feat version transports only you, and 50lb of gear. It's nowhere near a 7th level spell.

Portable. Hole.

[koz]

The party's primary concern isn't significant. Greater teleport can transport multiple people and a lot of gear. The feat version transports only you, and 50lb of gear. It's nowhere near a 7th level spell.

Portable. Hole.

1) It's a wish economy item. If you end up with one, the GM knows perfectly well what he's permitting, and it is totally the GM's call.

2) Even if you're not playing with wish economy rules, by the time you can afford one of these realistically (barring crazy cash-farming tricks), this is not a particularly significant trick.

In short: doesn't change my analysis.

[Username17]

The Outsider greater teleport is much less than a 7th level spell. It does not permit you to drag hundreds of pounds of equipment and more than a dozen friends who all get to act with readied actions to appearing in the new location.

The Outsider greater teleport is a creature power on a Lantern Archon. And those things are available as familiars.

-Username17

[Maxus]

Greater Teleport on a caster makes for good kiting. Especially if he's got Spheres and can get his abilities at-will. Stay back a hundred feet, cast spell from outside their attack range. Then teleport back out of range when they try to close the gap.

If you have permissible terrain, that is.

So, there's the deal. You get a scouting power and can stay out of melee. And rule a fight if you have the space to maneuver. It has to be a lot of space, though.

It's useful, and can be extremely good if you're in the right spot, but it's hardly anything game-breaking. It can also be pretty flavorful, especially if the character teleports around rather than walk sometimes.

I may have to do that. A party traveling down the road, except for one guy who's sitting down and just teleports level with them every minute or so....

[RadiantPhoenix]

Thanks for the help. my group won't be meeting again until Friday, though, so I won't be able to tell how well this explanation goes over until then.

[PhaedrusXY]

The party's primary concern isn't significant. Greater teleport can transport multiple people and a lot of gear. The feat version transports only you, and 50lb of gear. It's nowhere near a 7th level spell.

Portable. Hole.

1) It's a wish economy item. If you end up with one, the GM knows perfectly well what he's permitting, and it is totally the GM's call.

2) Even if you're not playing with wish economy rules, by the time you can afford one of these realistically (barring crazy cash-farming tricks), this is not a particularly significant trick.

In short: doesn't change my analysis.

There is one that's 50 feet deep and only costs 3600 gp in the Magic Item Compendium. It has an alignment restriction, but big deal. So if that's allowed, then it becomes free teleport for the whole party. I still don't think it's a big fucking deal, and allow it in the Tome game I run, but I'm sure some people would get their panties in a bunch over it.

If the guy carrying the hole around gets ganked, the whole party could be screwed over badly. So you likely won't be using it for "Scry and Die" tactics. So that leaves out of combat travel. And really, who gives a crap? So you can't ambush them on the road with bandits anymore. By the time this comes into the game, believable bandits shouldn't be much of a threat anymore anyway.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Update:
The Psion keeps complaining, the rogue doesn't mind, the Bard is doing some complaining, and so is the DM

In order:
The psion is convinced it will break the game... somehow... despite my repeatedly shooting down his ideas for how it might with the rules as written.

The DM hasn't elaborated, so I will need more explanation... might be something he has planned.

The rogue has no complaints

The bard is concerned about the concept of trivializing distance

The psion is now telling me that he's just concerned that it "might break the game" because he hasn't "exhausted all possibilities" ... after contemplating using minor creation for a fuel air bomb himself.


EDIT: considered the problems it might have trivialized this campaign:
a rockslide, and some clearly visible pendulums.
both would have only been trivialized for me, and were already trivial for the psion simply by flying and being the size of a small video game controller

He just flew over the rocks and crawled under the pendulums.

[Maxus]

Screw the Psion.

Work on the DM. He's the guy whose opinion matters

Point out what the Psion does. Ask him to level with you about his concerns and say you understand if he thinks it will cause problems later on, but tell him you don't think it will. Have the exact effects and limitations ready to show him, so he'll know you're giving it to him straight.

I repeat my analysis:

The Greater Teleport is handy in a fight with a lot of space. It's also handy for some aspects of dungeon crawling and bypassing traps.

It is nice for scouting and escape. Used with enough space and the right spells, it's a great aid to kiting.

It is by no means gamebreaking. It is very good in certain limited situations, and it has some utility value--SOME. You can't even be the mule with a mere 50-pound of gear transport limit.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Thank you for the help and advice, I will try to determine what in particular the DM is worried about and attempt to allay his fears.

[Kaelik]

FYI, similar thread went up by the Psion, in gitp. It is hilarious.

Because the poor 30int psion is crying.

And people are arguing about whether the Tome Warlock qualifies for Greater Teleport. Which it sort of technically does not, because Greater Teleport is [Monstrous] not [Fiend].

So Spherelock needs rewording.

[ubernoob]

FYI, similar thread went up by the Psion, in gitp. It is hilarious.

Because the poor 30int psion is crying.

And people are arguing about whether the Tome Warlock qualifies for Greater Teleport. Which it sort of technically does not, because Greater Teleport is [Monstrous] not [Fiend].

So Spherelock needs rewording.

That shit's hilarious.

[Mask_De_H]

FYI, similar thread went up by the Psion, in gitp. It is hilarious.

Because the poor 30int psion is crying.

And people are arguing about whether the Tome Warlock qualifies for Greater Teleport. Which it sort of technically does not, because Greater Teleport is [Monstrous] not [Fiend].

So Spherelock needs rewording.

Wow, just wow.

That'd be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

[Prak]

FYI, similar thread went up by the Psion, in gitp. It is hilarious.

Because the poor 30int psion is crying.

And people are arguing about whether the Tome Warlock qualifies for Greater Teleport. Which it sort of technically does not, because Greater Teleport is [Monstrous] not [Fiend].

So Spherelock needs rewording.

Jesus, you weren't kidding, the dumbass is crying... he wants to close the thread because the person he was talking about found it... what the fuck, how old is this kid?

[Maxus]

Nevermind.

Wow, talk about knee-jerk.

[Akula]

Now the shaper is saying that he left the game "voluntarily" and that he "without intending to" created a PC that was "tremendously overpowered." Bonus points for using multiple obscure Green Ronin templates.

[Maxus]

Oh, for fuck's sake.

Radiant, would you tell him something for me?

Making an overpowered character is not a mortal sin.

I can think of a way or two for his character to be toned down--strip the templates, etc. It can even happen in-game during a run-in with a badass baddy who can, I dunno, Disjunct him to medium-size.

Overpowered is a lot better than underpowered. After all, the PCs are normally supposed to win. Overpowered means it can be scaled back without offending the rest of the party. Underpowered is trickier to fix.

[Prak]

Oh, for fuck's sake.

Radiant, would you tell him something for me?

Making an overpowered character is not a mortal sin.

I can think of a way or two for his character to be toned down--strip the templates, etc. It can even happen in-game during a run-in with a badass baddy who can, I dunno, Disjunct him to medium-size.

Overpowered is a lot better than underpowered. After all, the PCs are normally supposed to win. Overpowered means it can be scaled back without offending the rest of the party. Underpowered is trickier to fix.

There's also the fact that if travel time is suddenly no longer a concern, that just means the DM needs to be more creative. It's like when my friend said "Oh sure, everyone pick a template" and then, when we all picked templates with wings, he house ruled that none of us got wings from our templates. I quickly demonstrated that there are plenty of ways to challenge a flying character without flat out taking their wings away.

[Maxus]

In this case, travel would still be a concern for the party as a whole.

If Radiant's character is the only one who can teleport like that, that's useful for carrying messages and scouting.

But it's not like the entire party can BAMF into the middle of the BBEG's throne room and teleport-ambush him.

And it's an interesting facet of a character, seeing as how it's at-will. It can change how that character interacts with the world, and the ability becomes part of him, not just something he does. It's like the Changelings in Eberron (by the way, the ONE race I really like in there) and Disguise Self.

I could find many ways to play it out, such as the character 'blinking' when he moves suddenly or tries to react. Or even when he's walking, he sometimes steps forward with his right foot twice without breaking his flow. Things like that, to help flesh that out as a part of the character now, rather than tactical ability that only shows up in combat.