Comparing the SAME test, vs published adventures

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Comparing the SAME test, vs published adventures

Post by Judging__Eagle »

For me, D&D is always about testing the limits of the PCs. Pushing them to their limits to see where they will survive an adventure, and get challenged the whole way, possibly being just shy of the whole party dying by the time the adventure is over.

If the PCs can go above and beyond their challenges, then the Game Referee's* role is to find out what the PCs goals are, and help them achieve them in-game.

*: I really dislike serious use of the term "DM". It's got a lot of baggage that I'd rather dump; and because so many people who use it when they are running a game don't realize that their role is to be a referee over anything else. Instead being somehow enslaved to the belief that their role is to be 'in charge' of the game. It never was, and never should be.
God_of_Awesome wrote:Don't we have the whol gauntlet thing? Runng the class through equivalent CRs at 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20th level to see how it works?

Let's do that.

A let's not let JE do it. He has strange ideas about CR.
I guess they're strange. They're based on my experiences on both sides of the table, and realizing that the game takes radical and dramatic shifts in terms of how the group needs to think and prepare at different plateaus of gameplay.

I want the PCs to 'at minimum' treat equal CR creatures the way that they did at lower levels. Not have monsters individually become more of a challenge than previous monsters were.

When the PCs face a Balor, it's not just a Balor that they face. There's a few swarms of Dretches (DM 2 swarum template); some Hezrous, a Succubus, maybe a Bebiliths, and a Marilith as well. That's seriously what "facing a Balor" means, and being able to utterly curbstomp Mr. Balrog with your iron treads means bupkis to that encounter, because the encounter is much larger than "a balor".

Seriously, 4 level 20 PCs incite one response from a Balor in an open or random area, teleporting away.

So, the Troglodyte crumples under two greatsword swings over the course of 4 rounds; the Fire Giants crumple under 3-4 attacks over 1-2 rounds.


Really, the PCs get faster at doing basic stuff, as they approach getting new abilities.

So, you struggle with melee at levels 1-5; then terrain, ranged, special circumstances limit you more from 6-10.

At 11+, it's how to deal with being killed in the middle of combat, travelling immediately to a specific location; haggling with powerful outsiders over some McGuffin, and dealing with challenges that would take an army or CR 1-4 creatures to accomplish. Like, a regiment of Zombie Mammoths coming to flank your side's heavy infantry units; or your treacherous Vizier (again).

At higher levels, it's a matter of learning how to be prepared for all sorts of surprises, and stuff like "trivial combat" are things that the PCs should be able to handwave away. The 11th level Barbarian doesn't give a shit if there is an army of Fiendish Orcs bearing down on her. She can turn them into kibble, and seriously, just does that. Facing a squad of stone golems might give her some pause, but it's not like she expects to lose; just that she can't charge in immediately.

At higher level play, the game is questions like "can I change the terrain before the NPCs get there?" or "how do I kill at least half the enemies this battle, before my buffs wear off; can I get more than half? Where do I have to move to with each step to maximize the guys I kill each round?" Are the sort of questions that players will make.

Not "can I kill the creature this round?" because, frankly, that's 10 levels ago. Seriously, if you have to 'debate' if you can kill a creature when you're level 10+, you're not playing D&D, you're playing a shitty Everquest-based MMO.

High level play is not about killing a creature a round. It's about stuff like positioning, maneuvering to deal with lots of creatures in a round. Adventures like "against the giants" has level 10-ish PCs against 'CR' 13 giants, with CR 10 and 12 giants running around in groups of various sizes. The situation where you see 'just' 1 equal CR creature isn't that common in printed adventures over level 5, and PCs need to be able to deal with an encounter that goes:

"1-X troglodyte Shamans (Trog Cleric PC CR+0; X = number of PCs); 30 feet up, on platforms; 5-10 trog rangers (Ranger PC CR-1); FE: 2 humanoid races, tailor to region or the PCs) with javelins on said platforms; 10-30 trog barbarians (Barbarian PC CR-2) on the ground"

That's seriously, what some encounters in published adventures look like, and PCs need to be able to deal with them.

Doing single monster boss fights is nice an all, but it's not really what the game does, or can do.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

I'm sold.
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Post by ubernoob »

You're being retarded again, JE. Mooks are already supposed to be taken into consideration in the SGT. Almost every single fucking SGT writeup I've seen includes "Horde of Allips" and "Tag team of illithids". This isn't the WotC CO boards, we're not retarded enough to think that 4 PCs versus a single equal CR monster is a hard encounter at all. I'm pretty sure you should read up on how encounter level works again before you post because this is just gibberish that instructs no one on anything they did not already know.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Heh. What are your experiences Catharz?

I think that people forget that you can do some crazy shit, and that even lower level monsters can be uber dangerous.

This one NPC in a lvl 8-13 adventure can summon up to 9 or 12 shadows per round, with a cap of 30 shadows total. Plus an equal amount of Wraiths.

Having 9 wraiths pop up around the PCs is some seriously bad ju-ju. Especially since you know they'll focus fire one of the PCs and con-damage them to death.

edit:

The SGT also has stuff like "A level 10 cleric, and their undead minions"; stuff that bones PCs that can fight hordes or singles.

Those are the encounters where it's more than just being tall enough. A PC sometimes needs to be able to deal with a bunch of different problems at once.

SGT is a list of minium power tests, not the standard that a PC must have, never going under, never going over.

The "standard" is seriously a boss fight, every time. PCs need to be able to 50/50 a boss fight; things up to 4 CRs over their own level. Like, you know, a dragon, NPC and minions, powerful creatures like Beholders or Fiends.

The ECL for boss fights can sometimes be 5 to 8 higher than the ECL of the party.

That's going strictly by the CR system, and PCs are expected to face one such fight ever level. If they can't 50/50 those, they die and the adventure's over. I'm fine with PCs dying half the time in a boss fight; but it can't always be the same half of the party that does so, and the remaining members need to be able to bring down the target.

Curbstomping shit is fine, and if anything, helps speed the game towards resolving the only thing that really matters, the boss fight.

Which is where we're in obvious disagreement. You seem to think that every encounter 'matters'. I don't know why you seem to think that, but you really do care about stuff that could seriously be ignored in an adventure, or skipped, and no one would really notice, or care.

Personally, the only thing that I've ever felt 'mattered' in an adventure is did the PCs achieve the main goal(s)?, not whether they had a tough/easy fight with in the Owlbear pit, or the Hydra Stables, or the Yuan-Ti brothel is something that I really don't give a damn about. They're just filler encounters so that the game ref doesn't have to describe an empty place or scenery every room.

Hell, the PCs could avoid those encounters, and achieve the main goal, and that should be something that is alright. The warlord in the tower matters; the bears in the moat, don't; you can seriously use narration to describe the damned bears, and the players wouldn't give a shit. Unless they wanted some bear skin rugs, or something.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ice9 »

This seems a bit like "these go to 11". Let's take a level 10 PC. Now we'll take a hypothetical monster that is an even match against that PC. What CR number seems logical to represent that monster? Could it be ... 10?

If you think the PCs should be curbstomping things, then maybe those things should be lower CR than the players, instead of higher. Makes a lot more sense than saying "If you want an even challenge for a CR X player, use like a dozen CR X+3 monsters."

Maybe some monsters are over-CR'd, and maybe some adventures have huge hordes of theoretically tough foes, but that's more a case for improving ratings than making them meaningless.
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Post by Kaelik »

Once again JE. No. You are wrong. You are definitionally wrong. And you are practically wrong. And you are experientially wrong. And you are testably wrong.

A Dragon 4-5 CR higher than a PC is not something that PC can or will or should go even against. It's something the PC, basically any PC, will lose to every single time without fail.

The Same Game Test is not a minimum benchmark of what a PC must be able to accomplish. It's something that Frank Trollman made the fuck up and defined when he made it up. That's not the definition. At all. Even close.
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Post by Username17 »

I would like to see a better high-level encounter paradigm. Certainly, 14th level characters are supposed to treat dretches like difficult terrain. They aren't even counted in the encounter level according to the DMG guidelines, so they should show up.

And there is an undeniable fact that organic characters over perform against the challenges that they actually face. The base guidelines for testing and benchmarking encounters do not include artifacts or character information - even though the sample campaigns include both.

But there are a number of flat category errors in the OP:
JE wrote:Seriously, 4 level 20 PCs incite one response from a Balor in an open or random area, teleporting away.
This has exactly fuck all to do with the SGT. The SGT is about comparing one PC to a challenge. It does this to benchmark individual character options in an entirely theoretical format for the purpose of balancing character options against other character options in the task that matters: contributing towards overcoming challenges. The actual guidelines for encounters in the real game are taking the PCs four at a time (or more) and having them jump into the fray all together. Of course they are going to plow through all opposition that was properly benchmarked to give a hard time to one of them alone.

A Balor out of the box (with all the magic shit that he's supposed to have and isn't included in his MM profile because he's one of the "like an NPC" monsters) is supposed to be roughly equal to one PC. He flies, duplcates himself, and spams implosion, so that's not much of a stretch. Anyone who is a super genius who is alone when confronted by four guys who are all roughly his equal is obviously going to want to get the fuck out of there.

And I just don't understand why you continue to grasp at this extremely simple concept. You can make a solid argument for different power benchmarks. After the first couple of levels, Wizards and Tome Fighters win about two of their SAME Game encounters for every one they lose. Rogues and Tome Assassins win about one for one. Monks and Dragon Shaman are lucky to win one in five at any level. And you can say "I want to balance things to the level of Wizard/Cleric/Druid where the monsters need to have large numbers and substantial depth to provide an interesting challenge to the PCs" and I'll totally support you in that. But when you say "I think a level 10 character is more than a level 10 character" you're just categorically wrong and you should stop doing that.

The SAME Game test has acknowledged weaknesses. It specifically under reports the contributions of "leader" types like Bards and of stunlockers. Because in a real game, a color spray is a pretty great back-up because it buys every other player character an action, but in the SAME Game test that's only a meaningful combat action for a Conjurer. But the fact that four PCs are bigger than one NPC of the same level is not one of them. Like, at all.

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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Hmm, Frank, I think it's that I think that a level X character is more powerful than people realize, and people seem to expect them to under perform all the time.

The level 10, 'whatever' is playing around with more tools and options than many people realize, and as a result people see results in game play, and think that they are cheating or something.

A Bard will probably have a giant monster cohort from leadership, or DM pity, or just buffs the party to fuptillion levels. A Rogue will have a boatload of spellcasting that people didn't think about, and shrug and stick his tongue out when the Paladin gives him dirty looks for casting Holy Sword on both his daggers. Let's not talk about the wizard. The Assassin murders everything one round, but only single targets (so they probably have some way to make Hide checks immediately, or is just invisible all the time), and that's no surprise really, he's been doing that since level 7.

I think this is more about expectations, and results not being the same.

The Balor example I was using has nothing to do with the SGT; it's more of an adventure thing. I think that I didn't separate my thoughts clearly, sorry about that.

For the SGT, a single Balor will look at a single PC, even a 20th level one, and think they've got a decent chance of winning.

They're probably right. The Balor can dupe themselves, have the dupe spam juggling abilies, and the Balor can use SoDs themselves. If the PC is kitted, feated, or otherwise built to shut down a caster/fiend, then the Balor will probably skedaddle if they, or their dupe takes any noticeable amounts of abuse from the PC.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

My favorite example of 'level appropriate' opposition is the mind flayer. At 4 players vs. 4 flayers, they can stun the entire party, plane shift those who save to somewhere nasty, and then eat brains at their leisure. On the other hand, if the party gets the drop on the flayers, they're probably all dead.

But--and here's the fun part--the flayers aren't dead, because they were astrally projecting. So depending on the context, the only way to defeat them is to track them back to wherever in the hells they are and kill them good (which can be an adventure in its own right).

I just realized that astral projection is an infinite item duplicator. Every illithid should be decked out with every artifact in existence, even the unique ones. Most of you probably knew that already.
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Post by Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:I just realized that astral projection is an infinite item duplicator. Every illithid should be decked out with every artifact in existence, even the unique ones. Most of you probably knew that already.
We did, but I'm glad to see that you figured it out. Just another example of how D&D as portrayed in the books is nothing like how it would be :cool:
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Post by Kaelik »

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:I just realized that astral projection is an infinite item duplicator. Every illithid should be decked out with every artifact in existence, even the unique ones. Most of you probably knew that already.
We did, but I'm glad to see that you figured it out. Just another example of how D&D as portrayed in the books is nothing like how it would be :cool:
To be fair. The items disappear when the spell is dismissed for whatever reason, and they have to actually have possession of the artifact to duplicate it.

So yes, they would have lots of powerful items, but not every artifact.

Also, you could see the Githankyi as artifact horders who do so primarily to prevent Illithids from getting them.

In fact, I feel like reading the Githankyi Illithid stuff both in WotC and Tome material and adding a write up.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Kaelik, that would be very interesting. Go and write it.

How would Githzerai fit in? I guess they try and get them as well? They oppose the Illithids, and the Githyanki as well.

Perhaps, explain how the Githyanki and Red Dragon relationship looks.

Other questions that people may have about Githyanki:

-what sort of group is sent to take out a 16th level Githyanki to bring them to their lich queen? The books tend to say something like, 15th level groups; are these 15th level groups, part of the immortal 14-15th level people, that also live forever?

-Do some Githyanki just stay level 14-15 forever? Getting level drained or something as they hit 15, in order to never hit 16, and get captured? They live in the Astral Plane, where they won't age, have Astral Projection to travel anywhere/everywhere safely, and only hitting 16 is the only sure thing that will kill them.

-How to Gith grow up? In the Astral Plane, you don't age, so a fetus seriously can't grow, right? Are there Gith colonies on different planes? What does one look like?

-What does a Gith City look like? Very heavily defended, so that many Gith can use Astral Projection to adventure? How is the Gith population split up among Astral Projection, and managing their homelands?
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Post by Kaelik »

It's basically coming down to a Adventures in the Astral Plane write up.

And then, we'll see about a Empiricon type Githankyi write up afterword if it's needed. Though with your additional questions it might be.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

-nod-

Alright.

I've always been leery of using the Githyanki in my own games, mostly because there are so many questions about them that the books don't answer. Which would mean that using them without being able to answer some basic questions about how their culture works seems like something really dumb will eventually occur, and I didn't think about it ahead of time.
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Post by God_of_Awesome »

Back to the original topic.

Now, I won't call you retarded JE, because I don't think you are. I think you're wrong, but their is a difference. And I will tell you what assumption you were wrong in.

You seem to thing a PC has a higher CR then its PC level. I suppose, by your logic, once you add PC levels to a monster, it gets a higher CR bonus then its actual PC levels.

So when people say that YOU'RE saying a level 10 Fighter should be able to kill 4 similarly leveled Fighters, I think they aren't seeing your logic. You seem to thing a level 10 Fighter is a CR of 20 or something.

I still think that's wrong and the idea is stupid, but I can see where you are coming from.
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God_of_Awesome wrote: Could I inquire on the motive behind the design decisions on the Fighter class?
...

The Fighter is intended to be, like the Wizard, a character who can and does adapt their tactics to the opposition and draws upon player experience to deliver tactical victories. And to do it without "feeling" like it was using Magic.

...

So honestly, when someone tells me "I know the game backwards and forwards, and when I pull out all the stops with the Fighter I totally win!" And my response is "OK, good." Because that's exactly what people report with the Wizard too.

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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Kaelik wrote:To be fair. The items disappear when the spell is dismissed for whatever reason, and they have to actually have possession of the artifact to duplicate it.
Is that in the errata? I don't see anything indicating that in the spell:
SRD 3.5 wrote:By freeing your spirit from your physical body, this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether.

You can bring the astral forms of other willing creatures with you, provided that these subjects are linked in a circle with you at the time of the casting. These fellow travelers are dependent upon you and must accompany you at all times. If something happens to you during the journey, your companions are stranded wherever you left them.

You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation.
The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.

While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord. When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the new body. If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation. Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on other planes.

You and your companions may travel through the Astral Plane indefinitely. Your bodies simply wait behind in a state of suspended animation until you choose to return your spirits to them. The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).
The duration is "see text", not 'X (D)'.
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Post by Username17 »

One of the few actual bug fixes in the 3.5 Monster Manual was removing Astral Projection from the Mind Flayer.

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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

FrankTrollman wrote:One of the few actual bug fixes in the 3.5 Monster Manual was removing Astral Projection from the Mind Flayer.

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Yeah, except it completely removed the rationale for githyanki hanging out on the astral and having silver swords without giving them a new one.
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Post by Kaelik »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
Kaelik wrote:To be fair. The items disappear when the spell is dismissed for whatever reason, and they have to actually have possession of the artifact to duplicate it.
Is that in the errata? I don't see anything indicating that in the spell:
SRD 3.5 wrote:By freeing your spirit from your physical body, this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether.

You can bring the astral forms of other willing creatures with you, provided that these subjects are linked in a circle with you at the time of the casting. These fellow travelers are dependent upon you and must accompany you at all times. If something happens to you during the journey, your companions are stranded wherever you left them.

You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation.
The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.

While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord. When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the new body. If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation. Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on other planes.

You and your companions may travel through the Astral Plane indefinitely. Your bodies simply wait behind in a state of suspended animation until you choose to return your spirits to them. The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).
The duration is "see text", not 'X (D)'.
Except that when the duration does end, the items are no longer cloned. Unless you are claiming that casting Astral Projection gives you infinite actions because when you dismiss the spell your projected body continues to exist, in which case, you are wrong.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Kaelik wrote:Except that when the duration does end, the items are no longer cloned. Unless you are claiming that casting Astral Projection gives you infinite actions because when you dismiss the spell your projected body continues to exist, in which case, you are wrong.
Actually, I just think that when you "return your spirit to your original body" the new body dies.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

No....

I've never said that a PC's "CR" is somehow "higher" than it's "level".

That's actually impossible.

It's like saying that 2 = 3, or 2 = 5.

I'm saying that PCs are much more powerful than people give them credit for. Like, absolutely, positively, and completely.

So, using a CR 11 Hamatula against 4 level 6 PCs is really "not a big deal", and they should be expected to win. When they take a 4th round, is when it's funny, because it's not that they can't win, it's that they are not doing what they need to do, and will probably still win.

Nor is using a bunch of CR 7 Bulettes against a large group of level 5-6 PCs. The player characters can murder shit like that. Even using PHB classes like 'fighter' and 'barbarian', they can murder shit like that.

PCs have a power rating that is not only harder to quantify, but for the most part, actually defies being quantified.

How do you figure out the CR of a character with a wide mix of buffs, or abilities? What monsters have Barbarian damage and resiliance, with either cleric defenses/buffs, or wizard defenses/buffs.

What does a Lich really look like if he's been powergamed? Can you even kill them?

What about a character that uses both undead and constructs? The rules that limit how many constructs you can 'own' are pretty limited, so in theory, you could see dozens and dozens of them, and they're basically "terrain" that is trying to murder you. Likewise with creatures that create undead, and simply fill their territory with undead, even if they don't control them all; simply to be a buffer of Allips, Shadows and Wraiths that infest a labyrinthine fortress.

How about a Cleric that actually uses Animate Dead, and Desecrate? Then they have an Ettin Skeleton at their beck and call, at a fairly low level.

How about the level X PC that accidentally or intentionally breaks the gold or planar currency market in your game?

The calling, plane shift and planar binding spells can create gold economy breaking resources. Being able to steal souls does the same thing for the Planar Economy game, PCs with tons of potential currency, sometimes enough that the PCs simply bribe their way past any fights that they don't really want to deal with.
I'll be honest, I'm a big fan of the "you have to give up an item" type of encounter over a straight combat, since it actively affects the PCs, and the PCs can still always find an other way to get past the encounter (sneak past, fight past, etc.). I find that players actually seem to want alternate methods to resolving encounters, and I try to give as many as possible to the players.
Those PCs can cherry pick weaker targets, and pay off more dangerous ones; leading to some very interesting role play and choice in party choice over what constitutes a "viable target". The dragon is an employer, contact, buyer or someone you otherwise come to an agreement to. The weaker stuff you face is stuff you just face-stomp and soul-steal to give you more shinies than the whole adventure would have given you. A 'quest' to kill some on par CR giants is more lucrative than most people realize, since you're fighting on-par monsters that are alive.

I've never said that PCs are somehow "taller" than they are. That's... mind-splittingly impossible. I think that I finally now get what other people are saying.

I'm saying that PCs are a lot fucking taller than most people realize, not that... they're taller than they 'are'.

Seriously, compare a Level 11 RoW Barbarian with a CR 10 Fire Giant with some extra HD to get to CR 11. The giant doesn't even stand a chance. It gets bowled over, out-maneuvered, and out-resilienced by the PC, and is basically a temporary puzzle, solved by making a couple, or a few, attack rolls.

The Fire Giant is just a troglodyte, but for a higher level character.

Trying to tell me that such a creature is a challenge is something that I feel is insulting.

Because such creatures were never a challenge previously. Why should they be a challenge later on?
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Post by ubernoob »

JE, please show me a level 6 PHB fighter (not tome, no custom artifacts, just the core rules) can defeat a single bulette.

A Hamatula has 126 hp, 29 AC, DR 10/good, SR 23, a weak save of +12, and +22 grapple mod (with an average of 8d8+24=60 damage on a grappling full attack if it hits on the first attack, which it will with +18 to hit).

How the FUCK are level 6 PCs supposed to deal with that short of bullshit spells like shivering touch? For reference, I'll estimate out what a level 6 PC has to do against the Hamatula.

Fighter type:
To hit of +14/9 (6 bab, 1 magic, 6 str, 2 misc) for 2d6+10ish damage per round. Since he's level 6, his weapon isn't holy so he doesn't cut the DR and is going to take many, many rounds to hurt the Hamatula at all.

Really, let's just ignore the fighter types because they just get raped by the DR, AC, and HP too badly.

Caster type:
DC 20 (10 base 3 level 6 stat 1 spell focus) slow/stinking fog effect. Less than 50% chance it even fails the save, and you still can't really harm it.

A Hamatula RAPES most level six characters party or no party. Now, is there anything I missed?
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Except that when the duration does end, the items are no longer cloned. Unless you are claiming that casting Astral Projection gives you infinite actions because when you dismiss the spell your projected body continues to exist, in which case, you are wrong.
Actually, I just think that when you "return your spirit to your original body" the new body dies.
Um...? I am having trouble determining what kind of stupid you are being:

"The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means..."

If you return to your material body, the spell ends and the items go poof. If you don't return to the material plane, you only have one set of items, those literally one you.

If you get killed, the spell ends, items go poof.

I don't see how you think that any possible combination of events would lead to you having your original items + astral items in use at the same time.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

ubernoob wrote:JE, please show me a level 6 PHB fighter (not tome, no custom artifacts, just the core rules) can defeat a single bulette.

A Hamatula has 126 hp, 29 AC, DR 10/good, SR 23, a weak save of +12, and +22 grapple mod (with an average of 8d8+24=60 damage on a grappling full attack if it hits on the first attack, which it will with +18 to hit).

How the FUCK are level 6 PCs supposed to deal with that short of bullshit spells like shivering touch? For reference, I'll estimate out what a level 6 PC has to do against the Hamatula.

Fighter type:
To hit of +14/9 (6 bab, 1 magic, 6 str, 2 misc) for 2d6+10ish damage per round. Since he's level 6, his weapon isn't holy so he doesn't cut the DR and is going to take many, many rounds to hurt the Hamatula at all.

Really, let's just ignore the fighter types because they just get raped by the DR, AC, and HP too badly.

Caster type:
DC 20 (10 base 3 level 6 stat 1 spell focus) slow/stinking fog effect. Less than 50% chance it even fails the save, and you still can't really harm it.

A Hamatula RAPES most level six characters party or no party. Now, is there anything I missed?
Not single fighter; large groups of PCs. This was in my high-stat, no to low magic item game that had a large group of PCs.

With a total of 11 members, the group was very large; 8 PCs, and 3 Cohorts; 2 wizards, 1 cleric, 1 bard, 1 rogue, 1 ranger/scout, and then 3 Barbarian/Fighters going for either Bear or Lion Warrior, or Frenzied Zerker; Chorots were 1 Formian Warrior, 1 Orc Fighter/Barbarian, 1 Goblin Ranger.

I first threw a Bulette at them when they were level 4 or 5; the Wizard's scorching rays finished off the Bulette after the six melee based PCs did their business. When I threw six at the PCs, they were all in the level 6 zone; and so long as no single PC was mobbed up, the group didn't have to worry about killing them all. At one point one of the Fighters was getting pretty low, but the Cleric had a Fly cast on him, so he just could thumb his nose at enemies and could respond to injured PCs very quickly.

The Hamatula fight was against:

-RoW barbarian with adamantine armour, juggernaut, and 20-something str
-wizard and lvl 4 cleric cohort
-lvl 6 rogue

The Hamatula juggled the PCs; and the cleric cohort used Calm Emotions to remove the Fear effects; the Ham used Scorching Rays on the PCs, hurting the wizard. The Barbarian was pretty much 'in the way' for most of the fight, and their DR was enough to shrug off any of the Hamatula's attacks.

Eventually the PCs clued in that the Barb could outgrapple the Hamatula, and then the PCs dogpiled the Fiend, while the Rogue used CdG twice to kill it.

Seriously, the rogue was a character with the soulknife feat that I wrote up; and only used a single dagger, no TWF.

Even gimped looking characters can add up to take down a higher looking challenge, and the CR 11 vs 3 CR 6 1, and 1 CR 4, creatures 'encounter' is something in the 5% of all encounters range. Overpowering, but expected to occur.

I never said it was an 'easy' fight, but seriously, it's just a CR 10 trap. I forgot to mention the Forcecage that was cast around the Barbarian, hemming her in with the Hamatula.

This was the trap that I used, right out of the DMG; the encounter tables were not kind.
DMG Traps Section wrote: Forcecage and Summon Monster VII trap
CR 10; magic device; proximity trigger (alarm); automatic reset; multiple traps (one forcecage trap and one summon monster VII trap that summons a hamatula); spell effect (forcecage, 13th-level wizard), spell effect (summon monster VII, 13th-level wizard, hamatula); Search DC 32; Disable Device DC 32. Cost: 241,000 gp, 7,280 XP. Note: This trap is really one CR 8 trap that creates a forcecage and a second CR 8 trap that summons a hamatula in the same area. If both succeed, the hamatula appears inside the forcecage. These effects are independent of each other.
link

I might misrecall, and the PCs might have been 3 lvl 7 PCs, and a lvl 5 cohort, but I'm pretty sure that they weren't. No Recitation was thrown down. Heck, the PCs won and the Wizard didn't even cast a Haste or Enlarge Person.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

See JE, the point here is that RoW PCs are generally far more powerful than they deserve to be and generally 100% Same game tests at low levels unlike other classes. So the fact that a RoW PC is too powerful, and some PCs using obviously Tome style feats which are literally eight times as good as any none Tome feat... (Especially custom ones made by you, someone who explicitly thinks that a level 6 party should be able to take a Hamatula) doesn't actually prove that PCs are that powerful. It proves that homebrew material that is generally regarded as way the fuck stronger than other homebrew material that is stronger than most normal characters is that strong.

But you are using "the inherent strength of PCs" to justify a balance point for homebrew material generation, and you can't use material generated to be at that balance point to justify that balance point.

Take a 3.5 party at level 6, literally any 3.5 party of four members, and they will still lose to a Hamatula basically every single time.

And that's fucking insane that you think the straight huge ass powerup isn't a powerup at all because you are comparing it to after the powerup.
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