If the PCs can go above and beyond their challenges, then the Game Referee's* role is to find out what the PCs goals are, and help them achieve them in-game.
*: I really dislike serious use of the term "DM". It's got a lot of baggage that I'd rather dump; and because so many people who use it when they are running a game don't realize that their role is to be a referee over anything else. Instead being somehow enslaved to the belief that their role is to be 'in charge' of the game. It never was, and never should be.
I guess they're strange. They're based on my experiences on both sides of the table, and realizing that the game takes radical and dramatic shifts in terms of how the group needs to think and prepare at different plateaus of gameplay.God_of_Awesome wrote:Don't we have the whol gauntlet thing? Runng the class through equivalent CRs at 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20th level to see how it works?
Let's do that.
A let's not let JE do it. He has strange ideas about CR.
I want the PCs to 'at minimum' treat equal CR creatures the way that they did at lower levels. Not have monsters individually become more of a challenge than previous monsters were.
When the PCs face a Balor, it's not just a Balor that they face. There's a few swarms of Dretches (DM 2 swarum template); some Hezrous, a Succubus, maybe a Bebiliths, and a Marilith as well. That's seriously what "facing a Balor" means, and being able to utterly curbstomp Mr. Balrog with your iron treads means bupkis to that encounter, because the encounter is much larger than "a balor".
Seriously, 4 level 20 PCs incite one response from a Balor in an open or random area, teleporting away.
So, the Troglodyte crumples under two greatsword swings over the course of 4 rounds; the Fire Giants crumple under 3-4 attacks over 1-2 rounds.
Really, the PCs get faster at doing basic stuff, as they approach getting new abilities.
So, you struggle with melee at levels 1-5; then terrain, ranged, special circumstances limit you more from 6-10.
At 11+, it's how to deal with being killed in the middle of combat, travelling immediately to a specific location; haggling with powerful outsiders over some McGuffin, and dealing with challenges that would take an army or CR 1-4 creatures to accomplish. Like, a regiment of Zombie Mammoths coming to flank your side's heavy infantry units; or your treacherous Vizier (again).
At higher levels, it's a matter of learning how to be prepared for all sorts of surprises, and stuff like "trivial combat" are things that the PCs should be able to handwave away. The 11th level Barbarian doesn't give a shit if there is an army of Fiendish Orcs bearing down on her. She can turn them into kibble, and seriously, just does that. Facing a squad of stone golems might give her some pause, but it's not like she expects to lose; just that she can't charge in immediately.
At higher level play, the game is questions like "can I change the terrain before the NPCs get there?" or "how do I kill at least half the enemies this battle, before my buffs wear off; can I get more than half? Where do I have to move to with each step to maximize the guys I kill each round?" Are the sort of questions that players will make.
Not "can I kill the creature this round?" because, frankly, that's 10 levels ago. Seriously, if you have to 'debate' if you can kill a creature when you're level 10+, you're not playing D&D, you're playing a shitty Everquest-based MMO.
High level play is not about killing a creature a round. It's about stuff like positioning, maneuvering to deal with lots of creatures in a round. Adventures like "against the giants" has level 10-ish PCs against 'CR' 13 giants, with CR 10 and 12 giants running around in groups of various sizes. The situation where you see 'just' 1 equal CR creature isn't that common in printed adventures over level 5, and PCs need to be able to deal with an encounter that goes:
"1-X troglodyte Shamans (Trog Cleric PC CR+0; X = number of PCs); 30 feet up, on platforms; 5-10 trog rangers (Ranger PC CR-1); FE: 2 humanoid races, tailor to region or the PCs) with javelins on said platforms; 10-30 trog barbarians (Barbarian PC CR-2) on the ground"
That's seriously, what some encounters in published adventures look like, and PCs need to be able to deal with them.
Doing single monster boss fights is nice an all, but it's not really what the game does, or can do.