My cheese-fu is weak.

[Hicks]

So, I no longer play 3.5 D&D, but Tome D&D. Never the less, as a challenge to myself, I wanted to see how hard-core I could powergame a character using only 3.5 material. Now you folks at home know as well as I that The Word is the most powerful character as yet made (seeing as how we too can pull infinate wish shenanigans), and I hold no hope as to beat it, so instead I put some paramerts on my powergame thought experiment:

• 1: The character must be a "Warrior"; i.e. he uses a weapon to kill a dude.
  
  2: He exists in an Iconic party of "Warrior", "Rogue", "Cleric", and "Wizard".
  
  3: His wealth is limited by the Wealth By Level chart in the DMG.
  
  4: The character must be playable from level 1 through 20.
  
  5: There is no other limit to the character.

And I have failed my own challenge, for the simple reason that I can find no way for the character to not take the 3ed level of Fighter. Here is what I got so far:

Alignment and Race: Chaotic Good Male Human

• Level	Feat	Ability
  1 (Barbarian 1)	Power Attack, Intimidating Rage	Rage 1/day, Pounce (replaces Fast Movement)
  2 (Barbarian 2)	-	Uncanny Dodge
  3 (Fighter 1)	Destructive Rage, Improved Bullrush	Fighter Bonus Feat
  4 (Fighter 2)	Cleave	Fighter Bonus Feat
  5 (Fighter 3)	-	-
  6 (Fighter 4)	Leap Attack, Shock Trooper	Fighter Bonus Feat
  7 (Frenzied Beserker 1)	Diehard	Frenzy 1/day
  8 (Frenzied Beserker 2)	-	Supreme Cleave
  9 (Frenzied Beserker 3)	Improved Sunder	Frenzy 2/day
  10 (Frenzied Beserker 4)	-	Deathless Frenzy
  11 (Frenzied Beserker 5)	-	Frenzy 3/day, Improved Power Attack
  12 (Frenzied Beserker 6)	Combat Brute	Inspire Frenzy 1/day
  13 (Frenzied Beserker 7)	-	Frenzy 4/day
  14 (Frenzied Beserker 8)	-	Greater Frenzy, Inspire Frenzy 2/day
  15 (Frenzied Beserker 9)	Improved Critical (Great Hammer)	Frenzy 5/day
  16 (Frenzied Beserker 10)	-	Inspire Frenzy 3/day, Tireless Frenzy, Supreme Power Attack
  17 (Warblade 1)	-	Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude, Manoeuvres, Stances
  18 (Warblade 2)	EWP (Bastard Sword)	Improved Uncanny Dodge
  19 (Ronin 1)	-	Infamy, Sneak Attack +1d6
  20 (Ronin 2)	-	Banzai Charge

  
  

---

Colossal +5 Skilful Valorous Blessed Starmetal Great Hammer of Throwing/Returning

• Damage Source	Damage Added
  Base	8d6 (28, 17-20/x4)
  Magic	+5
  Strength	+55
  Warmaster’s Charge	+50
  Banzai Charge	+20
  Full Power Attack	+20 (modified by Leap Attack + Supreme Power Attack + Combat Brute)

  
  

Average on Strike**: 536 = (28 + 5 + 55 + 50 + 20 + 20) 2* + (20 (2* + 3 + 4 + 3 - 3)

Average on Critical: 1130 = (28 + 5 + 55 + 50 + 20 + 20) (2* + 4 -1) + (20 (2* + 3 + 4 + 4 + 3 - 4)

• *This is the Valorous enchantment, which doubles damage on a charge.
  **This assumes a second or subsequent charge to trigger Combat Brute

Average per Strike over Time: 654.8 = (536 x 0.8) + (1130 x 0.2)

Strength: 84/+37 = 18 (base) + 5 (Levels) + 6 (Item) + 5 (Tome) + 4 (Rage) +10 (Frenzy) +36 (giant size)

Attack Rutine and Bonus: +54*/+54/+49/+44/+39

• *This attack is granted by Frenzy, and does not stack with haste

---

Crafted Items (Requires 5 ranks in Survival, Barbarian Only (-40%))

• Item	Cost
  +5 Skilful Valorous Blessed Starmetal Great Hammer of Throwing/Returning	200,000
  Belt of Magnificence +6	200,000
  Bracers of Wraith Strike (Continuous), Level 2	12,000
  Cloak of Resistance +5 and Silence (Continuous), level 2	37,000
  Robe of Displacement (Use Activated), Level 3	120,000
  Ring of Greater Invisibility (Use Activated), Level 4	224,000
  Amulet of Greater Mirror Image (Use Activated), Level 4	224,000
  Ring of Greater Blink (Use Activated), Level 5	360,000
  Headband of Mindblank (Continuous), Level 8	136,800
  Vest of Giant Size (Continuous), Level 8	532,000
  Master’s Gauntlets of the White Raven (Warmaster’s Charge)	22,500*
  Boots of Air Walk	112,000
  TOTAL:	2,180,300

  
  

2,180,300 x 0.6 (40% discount) = 1,308,180

1,308,180 x 0.5 (50% craft cost) = 654,090

---

Warblade Initiator Level = 11

level	Maneuvers	Stances
1	1: Douse the Flames 2: Covering Strike 3: Lion’s Roar	1: Press the Advantage
2	4: White Raven Tactics	-

...And just like that I have run out of cheese-fu. Anybody care to suggest what I can spend 95,910gp on, and/or figure out how to have the same ammount of power without taking more than 2 levels of Fighter?

[Kaelik]

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Whatever you want 5.

Take Extra Spell, Body Outside Body.

Cast Body Outside Body. Use your horde of bitches to Persist and Chain every single non Personal buff spell you can find, including Limited Wishes of Divine Power(self only), and Sanctumed Giant Size (chained).

Take your army of Colossal Persisted buff Wizards to town. Destroy everything.

[Archmage]

Kaelik, how exactly is that suggestion even vaguely sticking to the "warrior" archetype Hicks was looking for?

[Kaelik]

Because you are 12 guys who stomp around the battlefield attacking at +400 for XdY + 200 damage a swing?

Warrior as in "he uses a weapon to kill a dude."

That's his description. And this character uses weapons to kill dudes. Obviously he's too good to confine himself to one dude, and due to the nature of his hulking out, he happens to have lots of weapons but whatever.

If Naruto can shadow clone, McZilla can be so awesome he is 10 guys all hitting you with sticks.

[ubernoob]

1) Explain the source of your crafting rules.
2) Power attack multipliers don't work like that. At all.

3) DMM cleric beats the shit out of this. Incantatrix wizard does too.

[Red Archon]

I think ubernoob got it right. I'm a little tipsy, so I shouldn't be making any arguments for or against, well, anything, but I believe power attack multipliers indeed don't work like that.

Also, even if your cheese-fu is weak on professional charop standards, I think that's a fairly intimidating warrior.

[Hicks]

Yes, I know an initiate of mystra cleric can beat the pants of this guy. Ergo, I failed at my by the parameters that I set for myself by not having any levels in a casting class. I have not looked into body outside of body, although I saw a build a few years ago on the CharOp boards that worked something like a Javok Bomb, but in a closed self dampening loop; did more damage than there were particles in the universe (by a few orders of magnitude). Which is actually irrelevant because you can by a 1 charge item of wish that can let you wish for a N charge wish item, which can be expended for more N charge wish items (or a command word wish item, who cares?) and any other item of any cost, hence the reduced cost shenanigans.

The Item creation rules I used came straight out of the back of the DMG. You get a 20% discount for making a magic item only usable by a specific class, and another 20% discount for requiring 5 or more ranks in a skill to activate the magic item. Items are bought at the cost required to make the Item, so Item Price = (Base Price x 0.6)/2. Regarding the item costs, I will not revise them, as this is a thought exercise only because given the choice I'd play a caster.

I was under the impression that Power Attack was multiplied like everything is multiplied

• Base: 20 damage (-20 attack, Shock Trooper to shift Penalty to AC)
  
  Power Attack x12 (Supreme 4 + Leap attack 2(3) + Combat Brute 2 (3) + Valorous 1(2) + Critical 3(4))
  
  (PA of 20 (2* + 3 + 4 + 4 + 3 - 4) is still (PA of 20 (12))

The only reason PA was calculated separately is that PA multiples change depending on whether or not this is the first target charged (Combat Brute) and if a critical was scored. If it doesn't work like that, I would really appreciate somebody breaking it down "Barny Style" to set me straight.

[Akula]

I was under the impression that Power Attack was multiplied like everything is multiplied

• Base: 20 damage (-20 attack, Shock Trooper to shift Penalty to AC)
  
  Power Attack x12 (Supreme 4 + Leap attack 2(3) + Combat Brute 2 (3) + Valorous 1(2) + Critical 3(4))
  
  (PA of 20 (2* + 3 + 4 + 4 + 3 - 4) is still (PA of 20 (12))

The only reason PA was calculated separately is that PA multiples change depending on whether or not this is the first target charged (Combat Brute) and if a critical was scored. If it doesn't work like that, I would really appreciate somebody breaking it down "Barny Style" to set me straight.

Well, you are wrong. So here is the breakdown; you get the highest multiplier at full and you did that right, but after that you fucked everything right up. Leap attack gives you a x3 multiplier sure, but that boils down to a extra x1 when you do the DnD multiplier thing to it. Because it only ever gives you an extra x1 anyway given you are already getting the base x2 for a two handed weapon as part of your supreme power attack class feature, same deal with combat brute. So that should be a total of x6. The other multipliers you listed have nothing to do with power attack, so they shouldn't be in the list or reduced. Valorous is a multiplier for charge damage, and critical multiplier isn't even part of power attack math. Unless you are referencing something from some obscure book. Relax, the damage actually works out the same. Also on the 2 mil in items, which are a huge part of your offense and all of your defense.

[ubernoob]

Hicks, the DMG also requires you to have the ability to craft, which your character does NOT have.

Edit: As for multipliers, valorous multiplies a different thing than the power attack (different step), so would actually double your power attack in the end, but I'm pretty sure that D&D multiplication addition would kick in on a crit (because that is also a multiplication of total damage). But yeah, the best you can really do would probably be the following:

Frenzied berserker 10 (+2 times BAB to PA)
Lance (two hand it) (double damage on a charge)
Spirited charge (lance upgrades to times three on a charge)
Valorous (don't have it on hand, but either flat times two extra step, or upgrades lance multiplier to times four)

You *could* add in leap attack or combat brute, but you really don't give a shit and the getting on and off of a mount multiple times per combat is kind of stupid and headache inducing.

If you really wanted max hypothetical damage instead of just max practical damage for a melee character, you're wasting your time anyways.

Yeah, your cheese-fu is weak. I'm embarrassed that you're actually trying to post this on TGD because this is one of two things:
1) Penis extension (in which case, shame on you)
2) Completely impractical for real play (in which case, also shame on you)

Edit 2: I just realized that you're actually using the "restrictions" clause on top of "crafting" your items with no actual ability to craft. Triple shame on you for penis extension post.

[Sunwitch]

I'm too tired to be really helpful right now, but you'll definitely be able to save money by trading the throwing and returning properties on that stick in for a Glove of Taarnahm the Vigilant from... some bullshit FR book. It bestows throwing and returning on whatever weapon you wield (just a side note; unarmed strikes count as wielded weapons, try not to think too hard about that) and only costs 8000, so you'll be able to save in the end.

[Hicks]

So first things first: thank you Akula and Mauver for helping me. I really appreciate it.

Second: Ubernoob, how exactly is a self depreciatring thread title indicative of a penis extention? I never claimed that the character I came up with was superior, ever, in fact I said that I came here for help because I recognized that it was hilariously inferior to taking one cleric level after another. Forgive me if I didn't get the memo where posting for help on TGD is now a boast.

[ubernoob]

So first things first: thank you Akula and Mauver for helping me. I really appreciate it.

Second: Ubernoob, how exactly is a self depreciatring thread title indicative of a penis extention? I never claimed that the character I came up with was superior, ever, in fact I said that I came here for help because I recognized that it was hilariously inferior to taking one cleric level after another. Forgive me if I didn't get the memo where posting for help on TGD is now a boast.

Dude, look over your wealth usage. Then look over your power attack assumptions.

This is not a *viable character build for a real game that uses the base rules*

This is seriously "How big of a number can I put down by assuming that I suck the DM's cock to get triple wealth of custom items and always get off my (bad) trick*

Yes, that totally DOES make this a penis extension post. This thread is no better than when JE goes off about how good his fighter is. If it isn't conservative enough on the assumptions, you *can't* drop it into just any game and that makes this just number crunching wanking.

Shame on you.

[Roy]

Actually, Leap Attack is +100%. Not an increase of multipliers. So it does work normally with other multiplier increasers instead of using fucked up math.

Carry on.

[Nicklance]

Why not just Swordsage 20?

[Judging__Eagle]

FYI, Hicks, the devils from MM2 that you are referring to, are called "Jovocs" I'm pretty sure they're Devils; MM2 had a shit ton of Devils (something like... 6 or 7), and like... 3 Demons (the abyssal stuff).

I don't really know how you can craft anything though. House rules? A cohort that I'm not seeing?

Really, "hitting things" is something that every character class can do. At level 1, the wizard with a club can seriously kill equal level monsters. At higher levels, he can do the same, if they cast some spells. While the Full BaB classes are 'assumed' to be the 'melee' classes, some character classes just use more roundabout methods to do so. I mean, look at how one of the best grapple builds is not a Monk.

Also, FYI, Ubernoob, I've never said that the fighter in question was ever good. Something you and Kaelik never seem to understand. I just run down what he can do, as far as I can understand that build at least. Anything else is just assumption and speculation about what I write.