Shadowrun 4e newbie questions

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virgil
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Post by virgil »

Stahlseele wrote:which is why you won't see stuffer shack anywhere outside the poorer districts. And why stuffershack actually still accepts physical money.
When your response to "if an area is too poor, there's no reason to build a store" is "that's why they only build it in poor areas," I am going to be confused.
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Post by Stahlseele »

it is not the individual customer that makes the business, it is the raw number of customers. That is true for any low cost shopping establishment. Even today. Which is WHY they are priced so cheaply. Because if they were not, the unwashed and poor masses could not shop and leave the meager scraps they have there. Which is in the eyes of a corp better than the same unwashed poor masses leaving the meager scraps they have somewhere else instead. Honestly, look at walmart or the dollar store or whatever is your biggest and cheapest big store chain around.
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by virgil »

I know how low-cost retail works. There still remains a point you seem to be ignoring. With enough unemployment, there's no productive capability on the masses to profit off of, and so they get just plain ignored and no corporate presence is made.

Image
Notice the lack of corporate business signs?
Last edited by virgil on Wed May 17, 2017 8:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Stahlseele »

Notice my using the term usually not legally gained physical money and stuffer shack basically profiting on money made through illegal means?
Just because they are unemployed does not mean there is no way for them to aquire funds.
Prostitution.
Theft.
Robbery.
Smuggling.
Other illicit services or just plain begging.
Or do you consider those to not be unemployed?
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Wiseman »

What spirits are the best to use? I'm constructing my own Tradition, and I have:

Combat: Fire
Detection: Guidance
Illusion: Air
Health: Man
Manipulation: Task
Drain: Willpower+Logic

Is this good, or is there something i should be trading out?
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Post by virgil »

Stahlseele wrote:Or do you consider those to not be unemployed?
Do you think the people of real world shanty towns don't have economic activity of the kind you listed? Is prostitution and smuggling only possible in impoverished areas with the wonders of future technology? Do you think corporations are refusing to set up shop right now are doing so out of an ethical duty to avoid possible contact with illicit services?
Last edited by virgil on Wed May 17, 2017 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Stahlseele »

So?
I live in a pretty big city, and i have seen homeless people in the cheaper stores often enough actually buying stuff.
Today we do not have rich and poor districts quite like they do in the shadowrun world, there is not such a clear divide, not a police force that attempts to actually lock out the poor people from certain areas for the most part.
The explanation for stuffershack is as follows:
There is a market there to exploit, if we do it correctly!
Let us do this correctly lest one of our competitors does.
And seeing how the shops are still there, it does seem to work.
Meaning that yes, even the unemployed masses have enough ressources at hand to make a corporation a margin of profit that is big enough for the corporation to justify building and maintaining the stuffer shack chain of shops.
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Blade »

@virgil:
As far as automation is concerned, it's possible to have a fully automated stuffer shack.
However, there are three arguments that can be made against it:

1. After stuff like the Renraku Arcology incident and Crash 2.0, people tend to be wary of fully automated stuff. It's fine to have cleaning drones and security cameras, but they might not trust a shop where the security is handled by automatic turrets that could decide to shoot them just because some bug or hacker made them.

2. Employees might still be cheaper. A single employee with some limited technological help can take care of the whole shop, while it'd take multiple drones to handle each aspects, and you'd still have to maintain them.

3. Employees are a source of income for a corporation. A megacorporation has to sell its stuff. Producing stuff cheap by enslaving people and selling them to the outside world is possible, but if all corporations try to do this, the market won't be big enough. That's why I think most corporations actually somehow get their employees to absorb part of the production.

The most likely approach is truck system and debt bondage: the corporation indebts the employees for roughly the amount of money they'll make during their whole life when they sign up. This way, the corporation creates right now the money that the employee will actually create during his working life. In exchange, the corporation will provide them steadily with its own products and services.

Of course, this will be dressed up to look like something better than the slavery it is and to fit the corp culture.
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Post by Longes »

Blade wrote:3. Employees are a source of income for a corporation. A megacorporation has to sell its stuff. Producing stuff cheap by enslaving people and selling them to the outside world is possible, but if all corporations try to do this, the market won't be big enough. That's why I think most corporations actually somehow get their employees to absorb part of the production.
An important aspect seemingly ignored by Shadowrun writers is that megacorporations are nations onto themselves. If Renraku wants its employees to buy only Renraku products, they can just do that. Declaring everything that's not made by Renraku to be contraband is fully within their ability and rights. People hear "megacorporation" and think Apple, but what they really should think is USSR. Corporate war for customers in UCAS should look like an actual war, like Cola Wars in Africa - on Monday Halloweeners hired by Aztechnology roll into a Seattle district, conquer Wallmart building and roll out "Stuffer Shack" banner outside. On Thursday Merlins hired by ARES come, push them out and sets up their own store. And then it loops.

Another factor is that employment in a megacorporation comes with a SIN. That's a big deal, because SINless are non-people who have no rights. So getting a position in Stuffer Shack for which you don't get paid would already be a massive boost over being a SINless bum in the Barrens.
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Post by Stahlseele »

And they kinda do.
In part, the lower class wageslaves are paid in corp scrip which is only ever good in shops of that corp because nobody else will actually take that money. People in classes that are not treated as wageslaves are usually given incentives to keep the money inside, by making things cheaper and easier to aquire for them and actually leaving their enclave and going outside for shopping harder trough bureaucracy and other hoops like semi-mandatory bodyguard service that they will have to pay for themselves. Declaring danger/no go zones which will invalidate bonuses you may be getting. No more company car for you, because you turned left there instead of right. No insurance once you leave this part of the city.
In a corp you are property.
Last edited by Stahlseele on Thu May 18, 2017 11:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by JesterZero »

Wiseman wrote:What spirits are the best to use? I'm constructing my own Tradition, and I have:

Combat: Fire
Detection: Guidance
Illusion: Air
Health: Man
Manipulation: Task
Drain: Willpower+Logic

Is this good, or is there something i should be trading out?
Drain Attribute mostly depends on what secondary schticks you're trying to synergize with.

It's been awhile since I've waded into the craziness that is SR4 spirit arrays, but I seem to recall that Air and Fire are somewhat redundant. You might want to swap out Fire with Guardian if being able to hand a machine gun to a spirit is a thing you're interested in doing. I'd personally swap Guidance for Water because in my experience Weather Control as a niche ability has more utility than Divining as a niche ability. Those are both situational though.

Honestly though, if you're rocking Man, Air, and Task you're already on the path the Real Ultimate Power because you can now Go Fish!(TM) for anything you need with Innate Spell and Skill...and Air Spirits basically bring the best utility kit to the yard.

Like I said...it's been awhile...but it looks like you're doing just fine.
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Post by virgil »

Is there a capacity limit with vision enhancers, be it glasses or goggles? Or can you simply shove low light, flare compensation, image link, smartlink, thermographic, ultrasound, rating three vision enhancement, and magnification into a pair of contact lenses (Avail 36 & 2.225¥)?
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Post by Stahlseele »

SR4 has capacity limits posted on the items you can modify and capacity ammount needed by the improvement.
Contact Lenses have very little Capacity, only enough for one improvement i think.
Sunglasses have enough for 2 or 3, Eyes for 4 or 5 and Goggles basically have enough to put in whatever you want for the most part.
I do not have my books available right now, so i can't name specific numbers.
Last edited by Stahlseele on Mon May 22, 2017 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by virgil »

Stahlseele wrote:SR4 has capacity limits posted on the items you can modify and capacity ammount needed by the improvement.
Contact Lenses have very little Capacity, only enough for one improvement i think.
Sunglasses have enough for 2 or 3, Eyes for 4 or 5 and Goggles basically have enough to put in whatever you want for the most part.
I do not have my books available right now, so i can't name specific numbers.
I am looking at the SR4 book, and it's not listing any rating or capacity with the vision enhancers; or at least that I can find.
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Post by Zaranthan »

Stahl is close to the mark. Packing a dozen enhancements onto a single piece of gear is soft capped: each enhancement increases the availability of the item they're added to. So at some point you either hit the chargen cap of 16 or realize that it's going to take your fixer all year to get your supreme goggles custom ordered.

Contact lenses have a base availability of 6, while nearly every other item starts at zero, so that's where the apparent limitation comes in.
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Post by Stahlseele »

ok, i went and torrented the 20 year anniversary of SR4 and i am looking at a neat little table on page 339 under Street Gear Cyberware. There's capacity here.

And on Page 341 is the table for this discussion:
Eyeware.

Code: Select all

Eyeware - Essence - Capacity - Avail - Cost
Cybereyes Basic System
Rating 1 - 0.2 - 4 - — - 500¥
Rating 2 - 0.3 - 8 - 4 - 750¥
Rating 3 - 0.4 - 12 - 6 - 1,000¥
Rating 4 - 0.5 - 16 - 8 - 1,500¥
Eye Recording Unit - 0.1 - * - 4 2,000¥*
Flare Compensation - 0.1 - [1] - 4 - 750¥
Image Link - 0.1* - 4* - 500¥
Low-Light Vision - 0.1 - [2] - 4 - 1,000¥
Ocular Drone - — - [6] - 6 - 3,000¥
Protective Covers - — - — - 4 100¥
Retinal Duplication (Rating 1–6) - 0.1 - [1] - 16F - Rating x 15,000¥
Smartlink - 0.1 - [3] - 8R - 1,000¥
Thermographic Vision - 0.1 - [2] - 4 - 1,000¥
Vision Enhancement (Rating 1–3) - 0.1 - [Rating] - Rating x 3 - Rating x 1,500¥
Vision Magnification - 0.1 - [2] - 4 - 1,000¥
* Included in the Cybereyes basic system.
You are welcome.

Now for EXTERNAL GEAR, you will want to look at Page 332, where it lists the capacity for sunglasses and the such . .

Vision Sensors and Imaging Devices - Capacity - Availability - Cost
Binoculars (Rating 1–3) - 1–3 - — - Rating x 50¥
Binoculars, Optical - — - — - 50¥
Camera (trideo) (Rating 1–6) - 1–6 / [1] - — - Rating x 100¥
Contact Lenses (Rating 1–3) - 1–3 - 6 - Rating x 50¥
Glasses (Rating 1–4) - 1–4 - — - Rating x 25¥
Goggles (Rating 1–6) - 1–6 - — - Rating x 50¥
Monocle (Rating 1–4) - 1–4 - 4 - Rating x 25¥
Endoscope - — - 8 - 250¥
Periscope - [1] - 3 - 50¥
Mage Sight Goggles - [1] - 12R - 2,000¥

But scrolling further down, yes, i see what you mean, there is a table where the actual things that you want to put into your sunglasses do not have capacity listed . . aaaarrrrg . .

LOOKING AT THE ERRATA HERALDS THIS INFORMATION:
http://cdn.shadowruntabletop.com/wp-con ... pdf?d131f9
All Vision and Audio Enhancements now have a Capacity cost of
1 for the purposes of integration in Imaging Devices and Sensors,
except Ultrasound which has a cost of 2.
And now us who remember SR3 can start to argue that the 2 capacity from the ultrasound can be split up to two times one capacity for eyestuff and earstuff as in SR3 at least HighFrequency Hearing lowered the Essence-Cost on the Ultrasound Implant.

And of course, the availability is another limit you have to look out for.
Last edited by Stahlseele on Tue May 23, 2017 2:29 pm, edited 9 times in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by dirkformica »

Also remember that Contacts, Glasses, and theoretically Goggles can all stack. You don't really need one set of super tricked out mundane eyewear. Just wear Contacts and throw on the Glasses or Goggles you need for the situation
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Post by Stahlseele »

Goggles have 6 Capacity Max.
That means you get at least 5 improvements in there, including Ultrasound.
Without Ultrasound you get 6 into that. As long as you do not hit Availabilitym that should be enough for most anybody.
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Are there ongoing wars in the Shadowrun setting? If so where are they raging and what factions are involved, has there ever been anything like a World War?
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Post by Stahlseele »

Not really.
War is a Business Transaction for the most part.
Hell, Desert Wars is basically a Spectator-Sport with professionals acting as testers for new hardware and as advertisement for the same.

The last "War" in Shadowrun was the one that more or less started it all, with the infamous Nightwraith strikes, if i remember correctly.
That was the End of the Eurowars in 2030 - 2037.

Of course you have the TREES in Bolivia / Amazonia / Aztlan, if you want to count that.

And some smaller civil wars in Africa i think? But no major military operations with more than one party involved for the most part. Most of it is kept as hush hush as possible for many reasons.
Last edited by Stahlseele on Wed May 24, 2017 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Nath »

It depends on where you set the bar to call it a war. There have been as much as twenty wars in Shadowrun since the end of the European war between Russia and European countries in 2033, but most of them were insurrection.

2029-2054: Multiple conflicts in Southeast Asia.
2030-2033: Eurowar I - Russia attacked Finland and Poland, which receive help from other European countries.
2031-2075: Yakut rebels secede from Russia. Low-intensity warfare mostly around Lake Baykal and Irkoutsk.
2033-2036: Eurowar II - Turkey invades Greece and the Balkans, plus multiple other conflicts.
2034: Awakened forces overthrow the government of Brazil and establish Amazonia. At some point they invade Guyana and Suriname.
2035: The Sinseareach tribe declare itself independent from the Salish-Shidhe Council and establishes Tir Tairngire. They repel Salish-Shide forces.
2036-2037: Tir Tairngire invades Nothern California.
2035-2036: Aztlan invades southern Texas.
2040: Second Iran-Iraq War (they brokered a peace treaty in 2040, I don't remember seeing the starting date, possibly 2033 or 2034 during the Eurowar II).
2041-2044: Secession attempts in the Canton Confederation.
2047: Sichuan invades neighboring Guizhou and Yunnan.
2049-2050: Aztlan and Amazonia enter Colombia and Venezuela. Not clear which side the Colombian and Venezuelian governments backed.
2051-2064: Yucatan rebellion in Aztlan, backed by Amazonian "advisors". Low-intensity until 2062.
2061-2064: Ares Macrotechnology openly acknowledges operations to repel General Saito forces in Northern California.
2061-2066: Low intensity war in Bogota between Aztlan and Amazonia (this is actually the "trees war" people keep yelling about, genuinely convinced they're talking about the 2072-2074 war).
2061-20xx: By 2063, the Nubian rebellion in Sudan had seized control of a large part of Sudanese territory. By 2072 and the Sixth World Almanac map, Egypt took over all of Sudan. No clue about what happened in between.
2062-2064: Salish-Shidhe and Tsimshian low-intensity border war ends when the Haida National Front overthrow the Tsimshian government and a Sovereign Tribal Council-mandated force deploy in Kitimat.
2062-2064: The Polish Liberation Army, assembled in Czechia, moved against the Russian-backed Polish government and won.
2062-2065: The Manitou tribe attempted secession, fighting Algonkin-Manitou and Aztechnology forces and ultimately losing.
2062-2070: The Masaru-controlled Huk rebellion against the Japanese-backed Filipino government and corporate forces.
2063: Syria military took over of Lebanon. Not much information on that event, but I doubt it went softly.
2064: Australia invaded New Guinea and installed a puppet government.
2072-2074: War between Aztlan and Amazonia in former Colombia.

So the only ongoing conflict at this point in Russia/Yakut.

There is little to no information about most of Africa. According to the Sixth World Almanac, a tribe took over Kinshasa and Brazzaville in 2069, and by 2072 it is the capital of one of the largest empire in the history of Humanity, stretching from Niamey to Dar-es-Salaam and Maputo, and somehow never ever mentioned at all.
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Post by Whipstitch »

Nath wrote: There is little to no information about most of Africa. According to the Sixth World Almanac, a tribe took over Kinshasa and Brazzaville in 2069, and by 2072 it is the capital of one of the largest empire in the history of Humanity, stretching from Niamey to Dar-es-Salaam and Maputo, and somehow never ever mentioned at all.
That is impressively stupid. I'm not sure it tops the whole bit where India still has a billion people under one banner and never gets talked about, but it's right up there.
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Post by Wiseman »

Reading through some old threads I got the impression that linking Shadowrun and Earthdawn got some people happy and some people pissed off. Something about magic artifacts and immortals in the setting? I didn't really get the issue. Can someone explain?
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Post by Longes »

Wiseman wrote:Reading through some old threads I got the impression that linking Shadowrun and Earthdawn got some people happy and some people pissed off. Something about magic artifacts and immortals in the setting? I didn't really get the issue. Can someone explain?
It got Frank angry because Shadowrun posits "Real World, but magic appears in 2000s". But then Earthdawn came as a Shadowrun prequel and it was in no way even close to being possible in the real world.
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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele »

Some people do not like the idea of immortal elves and dragons in their cyberpunk setting. No idea why, because that has been the case before the earthdawn stuff happened as far as i remember.
And aside from a few dozend people(mostly elves and dragons) and 2 languages (sperethiel/elvish and Or'zet/goblin) and THE ENEMY the link between Earthdawn and Shadowrun is basically nonexistent.
Even more so since the IPs have been given to separate companies to market.
Magic Artefacts have been a kinda sorta maybe since SR1 i think.
Ancient History had some fun ones made up in his Ancient files, but those had NOTHING to do with Earthdawn at all.

And it is pretty simple and logical as well:
If SR wit magic is the 6th world and there are 2 worlds, one with magic, one without magic, and they take turns over the course of round about 5 to 7000 years, then yes, there has to have been a 4th world with magic round about 12.000 BC or so. I may be getting the times wrong here, i am at work and posting from memory, which is affected by heat.
And it is an idea for an explanation of shared mythology all over the world?
Because the mythology actually stems from a time long before our time with no real surviving records and as such suffering from degradation in truth from unreliable narrators.
Last edited by Stahlseele on Mon May 29, 2017 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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