The Gaming Den

In SR4A the Movement power has been updated to limit use on large vehicles.

When an object is inhabited by a spirit, the spirit has full control but cannot use the technological parts: it cannot fire the gun nor use any of the features of the drone. I am not sure about the rigging of a inhabited drone.

Blade wrote:In SR4A the Movement power has been updated to limit use on large vehicles.

Which I found confusing. It does nothing to inhibit the typical Shadowrunner's vehicle; in fact, they're more likely to escape in that instance. It encourages the shipping & military industry around distributed cars; which misses out on awesome matryoshka doll deliveries and super carriers.

virgil wrote:

Blade wrote:In SR4A the Movement power has been updated to limit use on large vehicles.

Which I found confusing. It does nothing to inhibit the typical Shadowrunner's vehicle; in fact, they're more likely to escape in that instance. It encourages the shipping & military industry around distributed cars; which misses out on awesome matryoshka doll deliveries and super carriers.

Well it inhibits shadowrunners who are rolling around in pickup trucks and step vans; it tends to privilege go-gangs since their bikes are still down in the range that a spirit is likely able to affect.

But you are absolutely correct; the economic impact is most likely that shipping companies switch from massive cargo carriers to mosquito fleets.

so how large of a vehicle can get enhanced with Movement, could you do something like have Movement cast on 4 rocket pods then attach it to larger cargo

OgreBattle wrote:so how large of a vehicle can get enhanced with Movement, could you do something like have Movement cast on 4 rocket pods then attach it to larger cargo

No. Movement doesn't affect physics. The speedometer on your accelerated car will still show relatively small speed. It's some sort of magical space folding that makes you travel larger distance despite the same speed.

virgil wrote:

Blade wrote:In SR4A the Movement power has been updated to limit use on large vehicles.

Which I found confusing. It does nothing to inhibit the typical Shadowrunner's vehicle; in fact, they're more likely to escape in that instance. It encourages the shipping & military industry around distributed cars; which misses out on awesome matryoshka doll deliveries and super carriers.

It was a weird nerf. It meant that to move bigger vehicles you needed bigger spirits which coincidentally also sped them up more. So large freighters were only economical against small freight if they damn near teleported across the planet. It's best compared to SR4A's attempt to nerf direct damage spells by making you pay drain for damage from net hits - a nerf whose only effect is to invalidate all combat spells EXCEPT the overcasted stun bolts people actually complained about. Because those save or lose spells don't depend on damage from net hits at all. Also it was gobberish, because multitarget combat spells have different net hit totals for every target and what the fu k does that even mean?

Basically SR4A was a very beautiful piece of shit. The rules changes versus SR4 were poorly conceived, unplaytested, and badly edited. Most of the deliberate nerfs were applied to thongs that didn't need nerfing in the first place and were so badly designed that they rarely actually scratched the paint on whstever action or combo the writer was trying to bring the hammer down on.

SR4A was the beginning of the quality drop, and in retrospect should be treated as such.

-Username17

Most of the problems with Movement seem like they could've been solved by the KISS rule - have the power actually increase speed, with all accompanying consequences. There's already a (barely functional?) mini-game for vehicles and speed, so the Movement power would just piggyback off of those rules.

And that would also enable discussions about the power, such as what happens to a Troll on rollerskates going Mach 1 who hits a wall..."the same thing as anything else" </Storm>

Hope your spirit is also using the Guard power...

For my home system I've solved the Movement problem by making the power only affects the "security speed" (the speed at which the target can go without taking risks). The max speed and actual speed are not modified.

The idea is that the power, as all spirit powers, affects the environment rather than the target itself. It will create ideal conditions (or less than ideal conditions if used to hinder the movement of the target), but will not break the universe in doing so.

he idea is that the power, as all spirit powers, affects the environment rather than the target itself.

What do you mean by that, any other examples?

such as what happens to a Troll on rollerskates going Mach 1 who hits a wall...

Obviously, the wall dies.

As far as i remember, "Movement" was once in one of the SR Sourcebooks decribed as "making the path shorter, taking obstacles out of the way" or something along those lines.
Nowhere does it ever actually say that the speed of the target the power is used on is actually affected.
It is dumb bullshit of course, but eh . . "it's magic, i don't have to explain shit. "

OgreBattle wrote:

he idea is that the power, as all spirit powers, affects the environment rather than the target itself.

What do you mean by that, any other examples?

Movement will not make the target move faster, it will remove obstacles from the way, give favorable wind (or the opposite if used to slow down the target)

Accident will not break down the vehicle, it will cause situations that are likely to lead to accidents (a tree falling on the vehicle, storm closing in, bridge collapsing, etc.)

Concealment doesn't make the target invisible, it's just that there will be steam coming out of vents that will hide him to the onlookers, birds will start chirping to hide his footsteps or wolves will start howling to distract the attention of people, etc.

Confusion doesn't directly affect the mind of the target, it will just make the terrain harder to navigate: following the trail will lead to walking in circles, the same landmark will appear in different places to make you think you're going in circles when you aren't, etc.

That's the theory, at least that's how it used to be in SR. It's not always easy in practice, especially in urban environment and it takes a lot of creative thinking. I try to have some common use case scenarios prepared in advance but I have to admit that there are cases when I'm just "it's magic!".

The physics are easier to imagine if movement accelerates objects rather than warping space, but the game mechanics are a nightmare. Very fast moving objects are incredibly destructive. A seventy mph fastball is a pretty hurtful thing to come at your face, but a baseball travelling at over four hundred miles per hour would shred though a bank vault.

Movement in Shadowrun reduces the time it takes to get from point a to point b but it doesn't affect kinetic energy or measurable speed. And for a game, that is absolutely the right answer. Because otherwise you have to figure out what happens when a bullet that was already breaking the sound barrier starts going five times as fast. Keeping in mind that the term "supersonic" no longer applies and the term is "hypersonic." Yeah, that's a thing.

-Username17

Is there any 'ware to enable survival in vacuum without the need for a spacesuit?

not specifically, no. at least not indefinite.
short time might actually be somehwere.
long time . . well, go full borg, replace all outside bits with metal that does not care about the vacuum. Replace the lungs with air tanks.
but then you still have to deal with radiation and fucking stupid temperatures all around i guess.
So, vaccuum yeah could work, space . . not that much.

I wasn't sure if you could go for cyberbody (limbs, skull, torso) and buy up the armor qualities like you would for making a environmentally sealed spacesuit, including radiation shielding.

If it's only the space suit bit bothering you, there's always the normal military and security power armor which you can enviro seal.
Technically, even if you replace all limbs, head and torso, you still have fleshy bits on the outside.
At least your ass.
There is, officially, no enviro seal for limbs, but eh, it is not too far fetched i guess. Same for Armor and radiation shielding.
I guess there is simply no need for such stuff, because you can have riggers down on earth or inside the space-station simply control space capable drones.

virgil wrote:Is there any 'ware to enable survival in vacuum without the need for a spacesuit?

Not that I know of. Space suits are statted in Hazard Pay.

FrankTrollman wrote:The physics are easier to imagine if movement accelerates objects rather than warping space, but the game mechanics are a nightmare. Very fast moving objects are incredibly destructive. A seventy mph fastball is a pretty hurtful thing to come at your face, but a baseball travelling at over four hundred miles per hour would shred though a bank vault.

Movement in Shadowrun reduces the time it takes to get from point a to point b but it doesn't affect kinetic energy or measurable speed. And for a game, that is absolutely the right answer. Because otherwise you have to figure out what happens when a bullet that was already breaking the sound barrier starts going five times as fast. Keeping in mind that the term "supersonic" no longer applies and the term is "hypersonic." Yeah, that's a thing.

-Username17

Yeah, I see your point, that's something I hadn't considered. And I really like Blade's take on spirits and their powers, it gives a very nice flavor to the magic of things. I've always preferred the pre-SR4 division of spirits with their domains and elementals.

BUT....SR isn't trying to be a physics simulator, and can get away with rules for abstracting the physics of things. For the "weaponized movement" problem, I could see something like a +x dmg (or AP) for each movement category imparted.

Basically I'm currently of the opinion that it makes sense to have a few well-thought out and well-tested mini-games, then to reuse those rules in as many places as possible. A) because you've spent time and effort to make those rules usable, so why not reuse them as much as possible, B) it's easier to learn the rules and for players to know how things work, and C) making a lot of exceptions-based, special-use rules seems ripe for creating problems.

Or does that bring up other problems that I (in my total inexperience as a game designer) haven't foreseen?

*sigh* i have resigned myself into my fate of having to play SR5 <.<
anybody have a good character generator at hand they can recommend?

Chummer is still a thing.

Is that for SR5?
I thought it to be for SR4.

They've made SR5 version.

Ah, good to know, thank you.

And now for something really embarassing.
I am german. My buddy sent me the SR5 PDFs in german.
And i find myself unable to properly use them, because i have gotten too used to these things being in english by now x.x

I have by now aquired the SR5 Books in english and started reading them . .
I kind of want to scrape out my brain through my eye-sockets by now x.x