Shadowrun 4e newbie questions

[virgil]

That doesn't seem to be how it works in SR4 from what I'm finding - it gives additional soak dice equal to the number of hits with the spell. I'm not seeing how it lowers SV at all.

[Stahlseele]

i am looking at the one in the SOX book now.
"The Radiation Shield creates a glowing field of magical energy which lowers the radiation for the protected person as if that person were standing in a radiation zone one level below what it actually is. (see radiation table page 18). If the radiation in sievert is bigger than the number of hits on the casting test of the magician, the spell does nothing at all"
and hits are capped by force if you do not spend edge.
so force 6 has a max of 6 hits and as soon as you enter 7 sievert territory, the spell does nothing at all.

[Shrieking Banshee]

4e question:

It seems to me that the only way to make easy magic weapons is possession binding spirits to objects.

[Stahlseele]

Define magic weapons.
There ARE magic weapons.
They are called weapon focus.

Binding a Spirit to a weapon does . . not much i think?
You'd still use up services of the spirit as you use it.
And there is not much that a spirit in a weapon can do.
The Nr.1 thing that makes spirits good is that they are, like drones, semi autonomous artificial stupidity force multipliers on your side.
Stopping it from going into the astral to do stuff or moving around on its own makes that worth way less . .

[Grek]

4e answer:

That wasn't a question. That said, enchanting a focus requires:
1. an appropriate telesma (translation: thing you want to enchant)
2. an appropriate focus formula (must match tradtion, force determines force of resulting focus)
3. access to an appropriate magic lodge (must match tradition and have force equal to force of formula)
4. one karma (regardless of force)
5. an Enchanting + Magic (16 + Object Resistance, 1 day) Extended test.

Using reagents and high quality telesma give you bonus dice. Force subtracts dice equal to force. But mostly you don't give a fuck because its an extended test and if you're in a position to spend a day enchanting, you're probably also in a position to spend a week enchanting. If all you're after is a Force 1 focus to bypass immunity to normal weapons, you pretty must just need 500Y (for the lodge), a baseball bat, 4 karma and a little downtime.

@Stahlseele: Having a spirit possess an object will make the object dual natured for as long as the spirit stays inside. That lets you hit astral forms with the object.

[Stahlseele]

I will admit i am not sure about this but:
Can't you hit astral forms with weapon foci as well?

And if you hit a spirit with a spirit posessed weapon, then that is just spirit close combat right?

A spirit not mana/stunbolting you from up above where you can't reach is a stupid spirit anyway <.<

[Grek]

I will admit i am not sure about this but:
Can't you hit astral forms with weapon foci as well?

Yes. The advantage of using a possessing spirit is that it costs less to summon (1 service vs days of work + karma) and that you can make the item stop being magical on demand (to bypass wards, for example).

And if you hit a spirit with a spirit posessed weapon, then that is just spirit close combat right?

No, you make a regular attack roll. The spirit doesn't matter, it could be a force 12 great form or a simple watcher spirit. The point is you're spending one service to make one object dual natured on a temporary basis, not that you're trying to get the spirit to fight someone for you.

A spirit not mana/stunbolting you from up above where you can't reach is a stupid spirit anyway <.<

Lots of spirits just straight up don't have ranged attacks. And it's not just spirits. This trick is actually most useful vs paracritters with Immunity to Normal Weapons.

[Shrieking Banshee]

Im pretty sure spirits bound to weapons can still activate their powers. And elemental aura is one of them. And unless your gm is a douche you could limit the flame/elec/cold around the blade end of the weapon. So tgats a dual natured weapon that does +4 dv and electricuty damage.

[Grek]

Not exactly.

Most weapons constitute "object vessels". That is, a vessel which does not have articulated joints that the spirit can use to move around and/or attack with. In an object vessel, a fire elemental could use Accident, Confusion, Elemental Attack and Engulf on your behalf. If it has the right optional powers, it can use Fear, Guard, Noxious Breath or Search. It can even use Energy Aura with Engulf (but not alone - Energy Aura requires a melee attack, after all). But it has to do all of these things on its own initative with its own actions and with its own dicepools.

At no point do you add 4 DV to your own attacks.

[Shrieking Banshee]

Well honestly that sounds stupid and makes no sense to me. This is where pure crunch interpretation becomes stupid in my mind.

[Longes]

Elemental Aura is a running effect. The spirit doesn't have to take actions for it to work. You can make a tortured argument that when you attack with a burning sword that's you attacking with a burning sword and not the spirit attacking (or being attacked), but that argument would be very tortured.

[Stahlseele]

Keep in mind that elemental aura is both an adept power(though not for weapons) and a spell.
So you can cast it on any melee weapon you so desire and make it magical.
Even better on a weapon focus, because the focus gives you bonus dice to use the weapon skill.

[Grek]

It isn't tortured at all. Here's the full text of the critter power:

Energy Aura
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Touch • Duration: Always
A critter with Energy Aura continuously radiates an aura of damaging or negative energy, be it flame, intense cold, electricity, or something similar. Melee attacks made by the critter gain an additional +4 modifier to the Damage Value. Additionally, treat the damage as Cold, Electricity, or Fire damage (see p. 155), as appropriate to the aura. Such attacks are resisted with half Impact armor.
Any successful attack against a critter with Energy Aura means the attacker also takes damage from the attack. The attacker must make a Damage Resistance Test against a Damage Value equal to the critter’s Magic. Impact armor protects with half its value.

Lets be very concrete here. We have a fire spirit possessing a baseball bat being held by a troll fighting an elf. If the troll swings the bat at the elf, that is an attack by the troll against the elf. It is not an attack by the spirit, nor is it an attack against the spirit. Energy Aura does not apply. The DV increase only applies to melee attacks made by the spirit. The resisted DV only occurs when the spirit is attacked. It does not occur at any other time.

The spell (which spirits do not normally have access to) uses similar wording:

[Element] Aura (Environmental)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3
This spell creates a rippling aura of elemental energies around a subject’s body. Each element requires a different spell (Flame Aura, Electrical Aura, Cold Aura, etc.). This fiery aura does not affect the subject, but increase the DV of any melee attacks by the caster’s hits. Attacks are treated as Cold, Electricity, Fire, or some other elemental damage (see p. 155, SR4, and pp. 164–165 of this book), as appropriate to the aura, and are resisted with half Impact armor.
Any successful physical melee attack against the subject also means that the attacker must resist similar damage from the aura. The aura’s Damage Value equals the spell’s Force.

Again: It increases the DV of melee attacks made by the subject, and it does damage if a successful melee attack is made against the subject. If a mage casts Electrical Aura on a spoon and then gives it to our hypothetical troll, neither the mage nor the troll is shocked by the spoon. If the troll hits the elf with the spoon, the elf is not shocked. An attack using the subject is not the same as an attack made by the subject. If the troll tries to break the spoon (by bending it, perhaps), the troll IS shocked. Because that IS a physical melee attack against the subject. But if the troll merely twirled it in his fingers, or shot it from 3 meters away with a pistol, nothing electrical would happen.

And no, it isn't an adept power. Mystic adepts can access [Element] Aura, but that is because it is a spell.

[Longes]

Variant 1. A materialized spirit comes into physical contact with a metahuman (hits someone or is hit someone). The Energy Aura triggers and deals 4 damage.

Variant 2. A possession spirit in the basebal bat without a wielder attacks a metahuman. The Energy Aura triggers and deals 4 damage.

Variant 3. A possession spirit in the basebal bat wielded by someone comes into physical contact with a metahuman (the wielder hits someone with a basebal bat or parries a melee attack). The Energy Aura doesn't trigger.

And you are saying this makes sense?

[Grek]

Variant 1. A materialized spirit comes into physical contact with a metahuman (hits someone or is hit someone). The Energy Aura triggers and deals 4 damage.

First of all, Energy Aura only applies to attacks. The effect doesn't care about physical contact. It cares about if someone is attacking or being attacked by the spirit. Second, Energy Aura increases DV by 4. The attack has higher DV than that, because the spirit has a Strength attribute that it also gets to add. But the damage may be less than that, because the person being attacked gets to soak.

Variant 2. A possession spirit in the basebal bat without a wielder attacks a metahuman. The Energy Aura triggers and deals 4 damage.

Possession spirits possessing object vessels cannot move or attack. The baseball bat has no moving parts, so the spirit cannot move. It just lays there. It CAN use its Engulf power if it wants, and that uses the normal rules for Engulf and does an extra 4 damage on top because of Energy Aura.

Variant 3. A possession spirit in the basebal bat wielded by someone comes into physical contact with a metahuman (the wielder hits someone with a basebal bat or parries a melee attack). The Energy Aura doesn't trigger

Yes. This is the only thing you've said that is correct in this entire post.

[Shrieking Banshee]

You can also enchant individual arrows or bullets. Neat.

By raw spirits dont deal damage with auta but thats nonsense

[Grek]

You can, but you honestly don't want to. Weapon foci require 1 karma a pop to enchant, and (for bullets/arrows) 3 karma each to bind. Given that an unbound focus provides no bonus and isn't even dual natured, it is nowhere near worth it.

Magic weapons in Shadowrun are basically awful, is what I'm getting at.

[virgil]

Given that an unbound focus provides no bonus and isn't even dual natured, it is nowhere near worth it.

Foci are also unable to be active unless they're touching the person they're bound to, which means the enchanted bullet automatically deactivates (and loses its ability to be dual-natured) the moment it leaves the barrel. So unless you wield the bullet as a melee weapon...

Which requires a certain caliber of character

IIRC, Frank & Ancient have debated as to the feasibility of enchanted laser weapons counting as a continuous item from gun to target for purposes of being dual-natured. Personally, I prefer the option of getting your possession tradition magician to create dual-natured bullets; which as been mentioned, and should remain a viable option.

[Stahlseele]

The best "magical" weapon in SR4 is Stick and Shock (SnS) Ammo.
And as a "ranged" weapon focus . . Harpoon-Gun with the projectile tethered to the gun by a thin thread that's running on a spool and can be pulled back automagically as well is your best bet i think.
A grapple-gun for example would work as well.
Technically, even the grapple-hand Cyber-Arm will work.
And technically, you can do touchrange based spells through that as well.

[Shrieking Banshee]

I don't understand why Stick and Shock count as magical. Its just electric. I wouldn't rule them as weapons capable of harming a Spirit if I was running a game with them

[Longes]

I don't understand why Stick and Shock count as magical. Its just electric. I wouldn't rule them as weapons capable of harming a Spirit if I was running a game with them

They don't count as magical, but they do have AP 1/2, which drops down the hardened armor by 1/2 as well, which makes it much easier to hurt the spirit.

[Shrieking Banshee]

Right. God I hate it when design combines to create stupidity.

[Stahlseele]

Yes, well, when the one of the effects magic weapons have is that they negate ITNW and other things do it just as well or even better, then are they not magic as well?
No, of course not. But that is semantics
I had thought the "" would be indicator enough of me dicking around.

[kzt]

Foci are also unable to be active unless they're touching the person they're bound to, which means the enchanted bullet automatically deactivates (and loses its ability to be dual-natured) the moment it leaves the barrel. So unless you wield the bullet as a melee weapon...

Spearguns.

[OgreBattle]

I cast magic missile


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